Is it legal to "hint" what is on your hip?

Howdy,
I can not understand WHY if you have your ccw and weapon would you be willing to get in a physical altercation. There's no way a cop would try to get physical with a BG of the same size before pulling his weapon non-lethal or not, a civilian is afforded this same recourse in my opinion. Most of the people I've met that are FLUENT in martial arts are also the last ones ever to get in a fight. I've served in the Marine Corps and seen ears ripped off and teeth knocked out because people with so callled skills got into fights as opposed to scaling down the situation with other means.
In reference to the orginal question I think walking/running away is the best recourse. If leaving is not an option and you feel that you are in eminent danger and you are carrying by all means drawn down on the threat, shoot if necessary,call the cops absolutely nomatter what.
Sparring and fighting are two totally different things, this being stated it absolutely makes no sense to me to be involved in a physical confrontation with someone when you are carrying,the risk of losing your firearm is too great IMO.
 
I hit a guy once while carrying. He was dragging his wife around by the hair and she asked me to help. He was drunk and I really didn't want to get involved in a marital thing, but also didn't want to hear her Kitty Genovese story on the news later either so went ahead and popped the guy a couple times. The gun didn't even come into my mind as it was not needed.

It's good to anaylize scenarios beforhand but methinks some of you are over-anaylizing this and not giving credit to your own intuition. I suppose I could be wrong on this but trust your instincts no matter the size of the guy.

It was Heinlein that said

"Never frighten a little man, He'll kill you." Size don't mean a whole lot nowadays. Martial artists abound. You just never know until its too late.

Listen to your spidey sense and act appropriately.
 
There's no way a cop would try to get physical with a BG of the same size before pulling his weapon non-lethal or not
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A cop would never get into a physical fight?

You don't hang around too many cops do you? They usually end up getting into quite a few fights.


Simple reason: You can't shoot someone (legally) unless they have a weapon or are clearly capable and intent on killing you with their bare hands.

Now if you are handicapped or physically unable to fight, then take your chances. The jury may be quite a bit more leniant on you. But a person in good health shooting an unarmed man regardless of the cirsumstances is going to have some pretty bad odds against him in the courtroom.

I know the saying is that it's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. I'd rather avoid both.
 
I have been an LEO for 27 years. I cannot tell you of the number of fights I have been involved in. I do not draw unless I am in fear of my life. At 6' and 240 I try to stay in shape, it makes a BIG difference. I can count the number of off duty fights much more easily. Those that have a physical disability will find that it is much easier to justify escalating force. Try to talk your way out of the fight, when it is time to fight, FIGHT, overwhelm the BG with violence. Never, ever, bluff. If you are not prepared to follow through do not indicate that you are. A non deadly force device is nice to have, especially, if you are not a trained fighter. ;)
 
USP45, I respect what you write. You seem like an honest man. When you talk about your ailment, it makes me bow my head, for I never would wish that on anyone, nor WOULD I WISH THAT ANYONE WOULD ONLY BE ABLE TO PUT UP A SLIM DEFENSE TO A PUNKS' WRATH Obviously, if your limit of protection is your verbal confrontation, then deadly force is the next step. My comment was directed at those that are very able to defend themselves with a force less than deadly, and had better learn it. Otherwise, they will, unfortunately, find themselves in jail with Bubba and the rest of the Crips. The continuum of Force is as foloows:
1) Physical presence
2) Verbal Confrontation
3) Physical confrontation
4) Restraints
5) Less than lethal (OC, baton, tazer, etc)
6) Deadly force
As you can see, they are a few steps in between yelling, "Step Back," before shooting someone. It may not seem appealing, but that is what you and every other leagally armed person must responsibly do.
 
Howdy,
For starts I'm not a LEO, don't really know any LEO's, and have no desire to be an LEO...but I do respect the badge and the fact that there are those willing to serve and protect. That stated my first response to the inital question was to leave the area/threat if it were an alternative. I would also try to de-escalate the situation if it were possible. In a situation where a person is INTENT on causing me physical harm and i can't leave,escape or avoid the threat and I am carrying I would be totally justified in pulling my weapon and then using that weapon if the threat persisted to assault me.
At what point can you determine if a person is capable/intent on killing you? Is it when you're unconsious?Is it when you lose an eye? Break a jaw? How many times have you guys wittnessed a fight where there was only one punch thrown or very few? So here you knocked the H__L out with an unsecured weapon.
As far as assaulting a cop...IMO most people would never even think about it, be it fear or respect. I'm also fairly certain that in a one on one situation Cop versus BG of equal size and the BG is intent on asaaulting the cop, the cop would use other non-leathal weapons before resorting to a firearm. Once again this is opinon, but I can't see a cop going to fistcuffs before deploying another type of non-lethal defense if given that option.
I realize that a CCW is a huge responsibility/liability, but where is is stated that you have to be in a situation where you have to have your a$$ pumeled before you can draw ?
 
Wowsers

I am very glad I don't live in some of the states you guys do, where you are afraid of using or threatening to use force for protection of yourself or others, or for the protection of property, or a malicious trespass, or any of the several other things the RCW allows.

I've never had to use force, and hope to never have to...but it is so nice to know that I can, and be within the law.
 
To kind of put it in perspective.

If a kid was being bullied, would it be ok for him to stab or shoot the bully?

After all the kid wouldn't have any way of knowing if it was just going to be an a$$ whoopin or if his life were in danger.

How is it different for an adult?
 
1) Physical presence
2) Verbal Confrontation
3) Physical confrontation
4) Restraints
5) Less than lethal (OC, baton, tazer, etc)
6) Deadly force
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Hmmmmmmmmmmm no attempt at de-escalation? No attempt to leave?
I assume you are a LEO. A civilian need only be in fear of death or grave injury, as would any reasonable man in the same circumstance.

If a civilian were to follow your continuum of force, they would surely be visiting Bubba and the Cripps. A civilian has no responsibility to restrain, and the verbal confrontation is just escalation in the eyes of the law. Physical confrontation is the same. All of this is well and good for a LEO, but for Joe Civilian, it's a quick ticket to 2nd degree murder.
 
Howdy,
Kids can't get CCW's. The whole premise of this discussion is if you are carrying and you wind up in a situation where you are confronted by a BG.
For the record I don't carry. I also don't look like your typical victim either. I would general try to leave or avoid a fight but I am more than prepared/capible to defend myself. My issue is why risk losing your weapon in a struggle? IMO it is far worse to wind up on the wrongside of your weapon during a struggle than it is to use your weapon to defend yourself from bodily harm from a determined agressor.
 
""Hmmmmmmmmmmm no attempt at de-escalation? No attempt to leave?
I assume you are a LEO. A civilian need only be in fear of death or grave injury, as would any reasonable man in the same circumstance.

If a civilian were to follow your continuum of force, they would surely be visiting Bubba and the Cripps. A civilian has no responsibility to restrain, and the verbal confrontation is just escalation in the eyes of the law. Physical confrontation is the same. All of this is well and good for a LEO, but for Joe Civilian, it's a quick ticket to 2nd degree murder.""

The use of force continuim does go both ways, the one we use does not have restrain as a level of force, usually that is the use of soft empty hand technics, holds, come alongs etc. Basically all that a use of force continuim is, is a logical progression of force. There is nothing to stop you from going from step 1 to step 5 or visa-versa. I think you are splitting hairs with his articualtion. Maybe if I made it politically correct it would sound better ie: Verbal response.... If some punk says "Hey old man I'm gonna kick you're A@@" Logically you are going to respond....."Who me?" :eek:. And maybe, then I will want to use some physical technics because he needs to be taught manners and not use such language in public. :D I dont know where you live, but a threat of physical violence is just that a THREAT, and I deal with all threats. The real thing to worry about is; Am I in Imminent danger??? ie; is he going to assault me now or when I try to leave??? If I am going to throw down with some tough it is right there, right then. Sorry for being long winded....I will shut up now. ;)
 
Howdy,
Kids can't get CCW's. The whole premise of this discussion is if you are carrying and you wind up in a situation where you are confronted by a BG.
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Kids these days don't end up carrying weapons because of bullies?

Some adults start carrying a weapon because they are afraid of bullies.

Most kids are told not to fight bullies and to just walk away. That doesn't work very often. It doesn't work that often in adult life either.

Those kids that never learn to fight will end up being adults someday.

See the relevance?
 
Howdy,
Martial arts training has great value, it teaches displine,it promotes self-reliance,it instills discretion,it improves confidence and the combat skills learned may very well save your or someone else's life.
When carrying one of the most paramount responsibilities is weapon's control. The possibility of losing control of my weapon while struggling with a BG is more of an issue to ME than drawing and using this weapon to defend myself or my family.
I hope this a decision that none of us will ever face but I recognize the importance of knowing one's plan of action if the situation ever presented itself.
 
Interesting thread, I keep seeing references to using "less than lethal" weapons. I don't know about other state's laws, but here in Michigan, the CPL holders can ONLY carry a handgun. No pepper spray, batons, saps, etc. So it's all or nothing. Those other weapons, as explained by the visiting LEO to our class, will get YOU charged with CCW. The training consisted of NOT shooting unless you are SURE the gun is your LAST RESORT and must be drawn. No "hinting" allowed (technically, it could be considered brandishing). Every situation is unique, just as there are no "routine" traffic stops by LEO's there are no "routine" confrontations on the street. The officer clearly conveyed that one must retreat from the situation, figuratively and/ or literally. The handgun is a "life-ring" when all else fails. He also explained that if one DOES shoot, the first call should be anonymous to 911 to report the shooting. The second call should go to one's lawyer. Wise advice IMHO.
Josh
 
Well the reason I posted this question is that in real life things dont go as they do in theory. Everyone in here says, retreat. Descalate the situation. Etc etc. Well, dont you think I want to? Maybe I wasnt clear in my first initial post, but just cause you WANT to leave doesnt mean a BG will say, "oh ok, you dont want to be assaulted, no problemo, why didnt ya say so, you are free to go."

Someone on here made a good point about bullies, and when your mom tells you to just avoid the fight. Yeah right, that doesnt work. Anyway, the character I am thinking about in this scenario wants to hurt you, he wants to feel power over you. When I retreat he comes after me. Now, if youc ant see a weapon and he is going to punch you, or who knows what, do you draw and fire? That can be messy.

I do carry OC spray just so I have a first line of defense. But I really do think that 90% of these guys would not mess with you knowing that you were armed, dont you agree?
 
Cheers,

WOW - this one is goning to be "food for thought" for a while!

My story is - about a decade ago, my wife, new dog and I were returning from an out of state contract. We'd stopped in a "middle class" motel for the night. I took "Mouse" out for her evening walk and was approached by a group of drunken "latinos" stating very loudly that "this nice white man" was going to "loan" them all the money I had in my wallet.

"Mouse" (a Blue Healer) had already assumed the "attack" stance. I flipped back my shirt, showing them a holstered weapon and stated "I don't DO warning shots!" "When this clears the holster, it'll be smokin - but I wonder just how many of you I'll get - and how many the dog will?" It STOPPED right then/there.

If you're "scared" enough to let a BG get within fist range - I've got to wonder just how scared you are of taking another life? Is it worth YOURS?

Yea, I'm one of those "deranged Viet Vets" - but I decided a LONG time ago - my life/family's is worth more to me than their's is!

If "displaying" a weapon is a CRIME in the state you live in - MOVE!

On another forum, my "signature" reads - "Never threaten with a weapon - when it clears leather - it best be smokin!" I stand by that.

I don't "intimadate" worth a f*ck - if I feel I need to threaten in response, I'll just use it.

Sorry for the "rant"

Gentle winds,
cr
 
This is an interesting thread.

Personally, I am a 2nd degree black belt in TSD and am in pretty good shape. But, I will not engage in a fist fight with some idiot out in a parking lot. I've seen too many street fights go bad with a lucky punch or kick. I would be more inclined to OC-spray the idiot and then call the Police. Of course I would draw my firearm if there was a threat of violence that OC couldn't resolve....like several people trying to mug me.

JR
 
It seems like some of you are afraid to fight and think shooting someone to avoid a fight will be ok.
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Sorry but that is incredibly ignorant and bordering on the idiotic.

I'm walking along minding my own business. Some wannabe tough guy look for trouble starts something. There's no way to escape the situation. By your train of thought, I'm obligated to engage in a fight.

I'm sorry, but I like having my own teeth and a nose that's never been broken. I don't want to spend thousands of dollars on hospital bills because some dumbass with anger control issues decided to fight me. I don't want to get an open wound and get some lowlife's blood on me and contract God knows what diseases. I don't want to miss work or have to spend time missing my life recuperating from injuries. And I don't want to be sued by some idiot who thinks because he started a fight with me I owe him money to pay his doctor bills. Even if I won that case it would cost me thousands to defend it.

Your statement takes absolutely nothing into account except the fact that you believe people who don't wish to fight are cowards because they END it by producing a firearm. That is BS.

What is the upside of your bravado? That you get to say "I'm a real man because when someone challenges me, I don't use my brain and the best method to stop the threat, I lead with my chin and start swinging!"

If I'm carrying and all my attempts to diffuse the situation have failed, I'm not going to give the guy the fight he wants. I'm going to give him the fight he wasn't expecting and end the conflict with something that has a 99% chance of avoiding real violence.
 
You are stupid to post thusly. Anything on the net

stays on record forever. Anyone can be tracked back from a post, and any group of guys who SAY you pointed a gun at them carry more wt in most courts. than your sole voice. The fact that you are dumb enough to show guys a gun (that you don't have in HAND yet) shows how much you really know about the subject.
 
You are stupid to post thusly. Anything on the net
stays on record forever. Anyone can be tracked back from a post, and any group of guys who SAY you pointed a gun at them carry more wt in most courts. than your sole voice. The fact that you are dumb enough to show guys a gun (that you don't have in HAND yet) shows how much you really know about the subject.
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Uh, no, nice try. Thanks for playing.

First, IIRC, TFL doesn't keep server logs.

Second, the vast majority of posters are anonymous here and go by nicks only.

Third, I don't know of any case EVER where the posting history of the victim in a self defense incident was EVER researched. They look at the incident. This isn't some crime drama on TV where the CSI camera zooms into the computer screen, screams out to the internet, and reveals all about a poster. It's real life. They deal with the facts of the case, not theoretical discussions on an online bulletin board filled with tens of thousands of theoretical discussions.

Fourth, your very assumption is absurd. Thousand of people on dozens of firearms board have posted not only what they would do, but what they HAVE DONE. By the extension of your 'logic', we could never have any discussions related to firearms because some mean DA will figure out where to do his research online and find out that somebody uses .45 ACP instead of 9mm because of *GASP*....get this evil intention...STOPPING POWER!!!!

Oh no, they talked about which round stops a human being better! Get a rope, he's a cold stone killer!!!

Dear sweet lord, do you realize how ridiculous your 'point' really is????

Thankfully, even if you don't, most rational people will.
 
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