Increasing hostility to Men & Women in Blue?

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sigshr said:
LEOs are the only public employees that deal with the public on a daily basis.
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Wow, central New Jersey must be a LOT different than down here.

You guys don't have public schools, driver's license offices, motor vehicle offices, courts, post offices, libraries, social services, etc, etc, etc?

Around here all of those functions are staffed by public employees who deal with more of the public on a daily basis than a cop does in a month.
 
Chesterfield, Aguila Blanca,

Without going too far off topic, and getting into the "blue wall of silence", etc which we can read volumes about outside of this forum...

Chesterfield I can only comment that if I knew anyone in my command who treated, or mistreated you in the way you describe they would have been held accountable and other action taken to investigate your complaint. I've witnessed officers being rude to the public, and rather than providing service the only thing they provided was a disservice. In those instances they too have been disciplined/reprimanded/etc.

Aguila Blanca I have seen shady, questionable and unlawful actions on the part of members of my own and surrounding agencies. And I can tell you from first hand experience that I too, am willing to hold those people accountable and be the "whistleblower". In some cases my decision was unpopular and did not win me any supporters. However I will tell you that most of my people would not tolerate working with someone who was willing to break the law. I do not see any "cover ups" or anyone turning a blind eye towards misconduct. In fact those who engage in that behavior have quickly become ostrascized and eventually are suspended/terminated/alienated. For the most part minor misconduct is handled internally (say for instance, someone was caught sleeping on duty) but any gross misconduct is documented, reported and if necessary criminal complaints filed. That's why we have Internal Affairs divisions. Some professional organizations have them (perhaps yours?) and others do not. They may take the form of a board who oversees professional licensure or some other sanctioning body.

I want my organization, and entire profession set a high standard of service and excellence. And I will continue to hold accountable those who do not meet those standards.

The reloading bench is calling, much brass to begin processing. I'm not sure which gives me more stress relief, actually shooting or reloading.....:rolleyes:
 
Malibru, your department/agency would be an exception around here. Around here, those divisions carrying the title "Internal Affairs" should more appropriately be named "Whitewash Division." More than one department in this state are under FBI consent decree even as I type ... and the state police should be.
 
I am not saying anything bad about the police in this case or any other because I don't have experience, but I think police "sometimes" unnecessarily create situations for bad things to happen to hem or other people. When I was 18 and had just moved out to a rental house on a decent piece of land with my girlfriend, the police had a no knock warrant for the previous resident. I heard noises, grabbed my shotgun, and luckily saw police in my backyard with flashlights, I put the gun down just before I got bum rushed by a dozen cops. I hate to think about what would have happened if I didn't see them in the backyard. They were nice after the fact, but could have been a deadly situation for me, my girlfriend and my roomate and probably at least one cop
 
I wonder how much of this depends on how different departments are run. I was a school teacher for over twenty years. I worked in several different schools. The atmosphere and attitudes were different at each place. A big part of it was how the administrators did there jobs.

I just wonder if some law enforcement agencies are better run than others.
 
I haven't seen-or read of-disturbances and incidents at the local libraries, town halls, motor vehicle offices, etc. When I went to the get the title and registration for my latest car I was at the local DMV office for perhaps 15 minutes. When I read the police reports in the local paper I note they usually involve shoplifting or other types of theft, drug and alcohol use, fighting.
Again, we can not paint with too broad a brush. Certainly in the bigger cities there is an "Us Vs. Them" mentality, an occupying army mentality and a tendency of PDs to see themselves as a privileged elite.
Also I think the "Blue Wall of Silence" has crumbled in recent years as certain groups that were formally excluded have been admitted to the ranks. In my town two of the female officers are lesbians, they're always quacking that they're the butt of locker room jokes, getting the cold shoulder, not invited to social events, etc. A one time shooting partner who was a member of the NYPD said in his precinct there was a homosexual who was held up to them as a good example of why they shouldn't be prejudiced against "gay" people-then he was busted for child molestation. Mentioning his name always got laughs. Not long ago the NJ State Police gave the boot to a lesbian sergeant
for sexual harassment. Perhaps Internal Affairs departments are overrated, but there are always state and federal prosecutors.
 
But I would ask each of you to look at your own profession, office, or co-workers and challenge you to NOT find someone who you do not like, who you think does a poor job, and who may not be representative of your profession as a whole. The police too, come from the same public pool as the rest of the populace. We are only human.
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The difference of course is, if I have a bad day, I'm crotchety at work. Police have a bad day, and people are dead.

How many police have been fired in your department? Not suspended, not repremanded. I'm not intending this to be hostile to you or any particular officer. But the numbers are what matters. If you don't have numbers of persons terminated as in other professions with similar experience, then, well again, the numbers are what matter.

EDIT: for personal bias I'll note I regular shoot with police, was taught how by the rangemaster of a county sheriff's department in Cali, and my last interaction several years ago was very polite and professional.
 
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OK, three pages in. Let's start talking about how we might fix the problem.

I'd really like to not close this for LEO bashing.
 
sigshr said:
I haven't seen-or read of-disturbances and incidents at the local libraries, town halls, motor vehicle offices, etc.
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Possibly a little research into Sandy Hook, New Jersey would enlighten you.
 
Let's start talking about how we might fix the problem.
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1. Replace the police internal affairs department with a board of impartial investigators.

2. The appointment of citizen review boards would go a long way toward eliminating some of the problems with police departments.

3. Cameras should be required in every police car. Without cameras in police cars you have a he said/she said situation. The Ferguson, MO police department did not have cameras in their patrol cars; look at that mess.

4. Require police to wear body cameras.
 
There used to be a time where the purpose of the police were to protect and serve the public. With the militarization of police forces, police not being held accountable for their actions, and their clear overreach of power, people have come to not trust them. With that being said, I have a couple close buddies who are LEO's and they are all stand up guys, but they will be the first to admit the departments they work for and many of their colleagues are as corrupt as they come.

My hometown of Watertown is where the Boston Marathon bombers were taken down. Unofficially martial law was basically enacted. People were told not to leave their homes for almost 2 days, there were random unauthorized searches of peoples homes against their will, the police were driving around in military style armored vehicles, pointing their guns at citizens of the town peering out their windows. A girl I know from the next town over was stuck in town so her father drove in to get her out. Her father who is a 70 year old Italian immigrant who is as harmless as they come had his car stopped while he was questioned for almost an hour before they made him turn around and go back home without getting his daughter. What would have happened if they knocked on my door to sweep my home, and I answered the door with my AR or shotgun in my hand, because lord knows at that time I was not answering my door unarmed. Chances are I would have been thrown to the ground with guns pointed at me, if not shot on sight, while my home was ripped apart. I don't trust the police any more than I trust a random person off the street, if anything less so due to the fact that these days they are able to operate with almost immunity and unlimited power.

As far as how do we fix the problem? thallub hit the nail on the head

thallub said:
1. Replace the police internal affairs department with a board of impartial investigators.

2. The appointment of citizen review boards would go a long way toward eliminating some of the problems with police departments.

3. Cameras should be required in every police car. Without cameras in police cars you have a he said/she said situation. The Ferguson, MO police department did not have cameras in their patrol cars; look at that mess.

4. Require police to wear body cameras.
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If the police have nothing to hide, they should have no problem wearing body cameras. Also, police who operate outside of the law should be held accountable, not be protected by some unofficial code that exists between LEO's.
 
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Fourteen years as a full-time police officer. My department has body cameras and digital pocket recorders and cameras in our cars and GPs in our cars. I have a B.A. in Liberal Arts and many of my fellow officers at my agency also have year or two year degrees. We wear navy blue uniforms and drive whte and blue patrol cars. I can only speak for my agency.

There are always going to be good and bad cops. Just like there will be good and bad members of the military. Or honest and dishonest politicians. Now the cop haters on this forum will disagree with me, but I'm not wrong. I've known a couple former officers who went to prison. I also know a couple former doctors who went to prison and I know a former school teacher who got busted for L&L (sex crime). I don't hate those professions. That would be inmature.

I can't change the mind of the cop haters and personally I don't want to. I'm not a firefighter. I get that. The cop-haters will do what they do and nothing I say (or write) will change their minds.

You know the funny thing is in the past I'v responded to a few 911 calls that were placed by local cop haters. Tough talking folks - intelligent folks - who did their research and knew the law. But when things got a little too hairy for them they called us. We went and if they call 911 again we'll go.......again.

So it goes.
 
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Solutions?

1) I agree with vehicle and body cameras on ALL officers, beat cops, detectives, and SWAT/TRT personnel.

2) End the majority of no knock warrants, especially those on shaky grounds. By that I mean doper informers, people trying to get leniency for their own crimes, and vindictive friends, spouses, or co-workers.

3) Stop the militarization of beat cops. Get rid of the BDUs and put officers back in traditional uniforms. Put the shotgun back in the car and the rifle in the trunk. YES, I know there is a need for SWAT, but there is no need for every cop to act like they are SWAT.

4) Teach police officers community relations programs to allow them to better relate to the citizens they serve. In conjunction with this stop treating every person you speak to like they are a criminal.

5) Stop violating people's Constitutional Rights just because you think you have the power to do so. YOU DON'T.

6) Raise the minimum entrance requirements for education for officers.

7) When a bad officer is found don't protect them, report them to your superiors. Appropriate punishment must then be handed out, including termination and jail time if deserved.
 
As a current student of criminal justice hoping to become a state trooper someday, I'd say a really big improvement a lot of police departments could make is more community policing. There needs to be far more positive interaction between the police and the community. In a lot of communities, the only interaction the public has with the police are during traffic stops. That's not doing much to improve their image there if the only time you see the police is when they're punishing you.

They need to be doing a lot more PR events. Town has a problem with speeding in certain areas? Maybe get the public involved and get their input. Maybe hold seminars about self defense or something, have some sort of police athletic league, just anything that involves positive interaction between the police and the community.
 
I can't change the mind of the cop haters and personally I don't want to.
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No cop hater here.

You use the term "cop hater" several times in your post. Seems to me that you are intolerant of any criticism of cops, crooked or otherwise. Looks like someone here hit your sore spot.

i worked in the WV prison system as a CO for a short time many years ago. There were no doctors in the WV prison system at that time. There were no lawyers in the system. There were two school teachers in the system for voter fraud. There was one former prosecutor in the system.

Was surprised at the number of cops in the WV prison system. One chief of police and his entire four man force were in prison. Two former state troopers also resided there, one for the murder of the 18 year old girlfriend he left his wife for.

i simply want those who swear to uphold the law to do just that, uphold the law. law. i want police to report colleagues who break the law: Yep, i know that one is a stretch. We, the taxpayers of this country, pay police salaries: We demand some reforms.
 
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No cop hater here.

You use the term "cop hater" several times in your post. Seems to me that you are intolerant of any criticism of cops, crooked or otherwise. Looks like someone here hit your sore spot.

i worked in the WV prison system as a CO for a short time many years ago. There were no doctors in the WV prison system at that time. There were no lawyers in the system. There were two school teachers in the system for voter fraud. There was one former prosecutor in the system.

Was surprised at the number of cops in the WV prison system. One chief of police and his entire four man force were in prison. Two former state troopers also resided there, one for the murder of the 18 year old girlfriend he left his wife for.

i simply want those who swear to uphold the law to do just that, uphold the law. law. i want police to report colleagues who break the law: Yep, i know that one is a stretch. We, the taxpayers of this country, pay police salaries: We demand some reforms.
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I'm also a taxpayer and I vote. I'm not above the law. When I get a traffic ticket I pay them - like everybody else.

I'm not intolerant. But some folks are cop haters. Especially the ones puffed up with self-righteousness. Does it wear on me? Sometimes.

I've never helped to hide an officer who breaks the law. That behavior is not rewarded in my agency. The officers I mentioned were reported, investigated and charged. Seems to me the officers (ex-officers) were discovered, charged and punished. If there are a high number of people being hired with criminal tendencies then the communities need to look at themselves. One could argue that corrupt communities make for corrupt police departments. In other words perhaps a community gets the police (and government) that it deserves - sometimes.
 
If the military was subject to the same degree of scrutiny and criticism that law enforcement agencies are, people would be up in arms and demanding to know how we can spend so much on defense and get such a poor return and raging about how military people are nothing but crooks and conmen-and losers who can't hold a real job. I note that as civilians LEOs are subject to internal affairs investigations plus State AND Federal prosecution, the military gets to investigate itself, and those of us who have served know this always
results in the small fry getting the book thrown at them and the higher ups getting away with at most a slap on the wrist, a "Letter of Reprimand".
Citizen review boards were pushed by liberals in the 60s when PDs were seen as bastion of racism and fascism and the face of Big Bad Government.
And when in the early 1970s there were calls in my town for a civilian review board due mainly to problems caused by unruly anti-war protestors, I pointed out that a major function of the police is to protect the criminal element from people like ME.
 
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If the military was subject to the same degree of scrutiny
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They aren't because, by law they cannot be involved in US domestic affairs.

If PFC Brubaker was wandering around Main Street pointing an M4 at people, amazingly the level of scrutiny would go up.
 
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