No, being nationalist is not the same as being racist. I don't have as much of a problem with those that are nationalist but the statement you just made - claiming that those residents are "probably" illegal just because they're hispanic - is a direct attack on a specific race.
Immigration Threads on TFL.
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JuanCarlos
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Good many, maybe. Most? A majority of Hispanic Americans are here legally. Where I come from "most" implies not just a majority, but a a vast majority. We haven't even seen anything backing up the 24% number yet (I asked him, or others, to substantiate it, provided evidence to the contrary, and have not gotten any response).
First, Nashville is hardly a "town." It's a metro area of over a million people. As such it's not unreasonable to expect both a diverse and changing cultural makeup, as is common in major metro areas. We're not talking about Livingston, MT here.
Also, Double J made no mention of the socioeconomic status of this mythical 24% of people in the Nashville area who are Hispanic. Though I guess based on national stats it's not entirely unreasonable to assume they'll trend towards the lower rungs of the economic ladder. Then again, Nashville already had (and has) a large black population who is actually more likely to be in poverty than the Hispanic/Latino population...at least according to the numbers I'm looking at.
Of course, it's a complicated issue and probably beyond the scope of this thread. And definitely not properly addressed by a simple "oh noes! Nashville is like 24% Hispanic and growing!" comment. The wording of that comment (the original, not my caricatured version) suggests the the poster wasn't exactly thinking through all these complex factors when writing it. But maybe that's just me.
Lastly, a change in the cultural makeup of an area is hardly an objectively bad thing...and often not even subjectively bad. And it's not always spurred by [EDIT: international] immigration or changes in the racial makeup of an area. Heck, we have plenty of problems with changes to the cultural/economic makeup up here, and people complain nearly as loudly about it...and it's middle- to upper-middle-class white people (moving in from out of state) causing it.
Places change. Deal with it. And while I think that the discrimination against non-natives up here his already fairly obnoxious, at least somebody who moves from California can, if they try, still fit in pretty easily. It's not like that supposed 24% of Hispanics in Memphis that Double J has such a problem with can just stop being brown.
Sure. You're right, and there's no problem with racism and intolerance on TFL, either. Which is why we already can't discuss race, sexual preference, religion, abortion, etc.
I'll admit that this particular comment may or may not have been racially motivated. I think it's likely, but not definite. I think it's worth asking exactly what the intent was, in the context of this thread.
Sure, that's a great idea. Let's get rid of any topic that people are likely to disagree with each other on, or in which racist people might accidentally show how racist they are.* We can just sit around and talk about how great Ron Paul is all day.
* - Note that again I'm not saying that this particular comment I quoted is necessarily an example of this...just that it's possibly one. There have been other, much more obvious examples, and plenty of other ambiguous examples, in the current and past immigration threads.
I wholly disagree. First its ridiculous and totally disingenuous to suggest that there is ethnic cleansing or mass xenophobia. Thats simply not the case.
Secondly, I don't quite understand what you mean about "so called" undocumented status. The law is clear and people that don't come in properly are here illegally. No amount of fanciful language will change that.
I do think its interesting that you bring up history however. For all the bad things that our government did to the native americans they're still here. They did get raw deal no doubt, but as of today they are free to live anywhere in the US including some places that you and I can't.
As for the immigration laws themselves, I have a feeling your in the camp that likes to point out that in the late 1800's and early 1900's we didn't hvae any laws other than preventing criminals and those carrying diseases. While thats true, people who love to cite this fail to mention the 2nd half of the equation. These people who came over, voluntarily learned english, flew the american flag outside their homes, celebrated the 4th of july, and even changed their names.
For example, my fathers family was originally from scotland and has been here since before the revolution. My mothers family however came during these huge immigration waves from eastern europe. My great grandfather on my grandads side was born Grzegorz Woodinski, but when he landed at in New York he was Greg Woods. On my grandmothers side, her dad was born Stanislav Dzrost. He was a member of the aristocracy and a general in the white russian army. At ellis island however he was Joe Rost since thats the only American name he knew.
Don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. I don't suggest that immigrants should change their names to Dick and Jane. Thats not the point. What I am illustrating is that these people that made up the melting pot and helped built this country came here to be american. They cared enough about assimilating that most even changed their identities. Again, don't read this to mean that I think people should give up their culture. From the outside my great grandparents house looked like every other home in suburbia, however the minute you entered the door it was a time warp back to eastern europe. You would hear just as much polish, russian or slavic conversation as you would english.
Thats the way it should be and thats what I expect. The argument that all of these illegal immigrants are only going to make us better because they will add ot the culture is a total fallacy because they share nothing in common with those that came before.
So to make a long story story short, I don't have to put up with the change and its not a good thing if it means having to listen to any other language in public but english and seeing anything other than the american flag flying from flag poles. What people do within the 4 walls of their home is no business of mine. What they do in public is.
JuanCarlos
New member
What language people choose to speak in public...whether tourists, immigrants, or even native-born Americans who happen to be multi-lingual...is absolutely no business of yours.
EDIT: It's also common to see Canadian flags flying from poles up here...I'm still not entirely sure why. But as long as it's not flying higher than the stars and bars, and flying on private property, that's none of your business either. Even if it was flying higher than the US flag, that's still not your business; that's the business of your local lawmakers as well as the courts (to decide of the first amendment should apply).
So because I like my neighborhood the way it is I'm somehow wrong?
Of course theres nothing illegal about culture, but that doesn't mean I want any of it. Right now I live in a nice neighborhood. Most of the residents are white, and the ages range from young 30's to retired folks. There is virtually no crime, no homeless people and illegals looking for work are "encouraged" to move along by the police.
I don't want to see tiendas start popping up, or markets with chinese or korean writing on the sign. I don't want low income housing or apartment complexes or anything of the kind. You show me a city that has these and I'll show you property values that plummet and crime increase. If I want to have a neighbor who doesn't maintain his yard, drives an 87 buick regal, and blasts the latin station when he cruises on by, I'll move to east LA. Thats the "culture" thats being imported.
And before somebody pastes this as a race thing let me quell your fears. I don't care whether you're black, white, hispanic, asian, purple, pink, or blue. As long as they maintain certian neighborhood standards, speak english when talking to me, and either fly the america flag or none at all you won't hear a peep from me. You can sacrifice a goat in your living room and I won't care.
When people don't do these things however, it does have a real financial effect on other people, and I'm not willing to give up everything I've worked for because someone thinks they are entitled to "culture"
UH1-D Rotorhead
Moderator
In case you are not aware Stage, massive deportations of an ethnic group is considered another form of ethnic cleansing...I most certainly would not want to be part of any group advocating such nonsense. Would you?
UH1-D Rotorhead
Moderator
I don't know what to say Stage...that last post of yours...OMG...are you deliberately attempting to get this thread shut down? Without saying anymore, you have said it all...I do believe the boogey man has reared its ugly head. Shame on you Stage.
JuanCarlos
New member
Wow...I need to change hardware stores. Mine doesn't carry brushes nearly that broad.
Yes. Our opinions differ and I'm sure you're a cool dude otherwise but if your complaint is about having to hear your neighbors - LEGAL neighbors - talk to each other in spanish on the sidewalk or on their own property (as you clearly stated above) or perhaps fly the Uruguayan flag (viva peñarol!) instead of the American flag then I most certainly see something wrong with that.
Those folks have as much right to express their culture in public as you have the right to express yours. You don't hear me complaining about someone driving around with a rebel flag on the hood of their truck or blasting some honky tonk when he cruises on by in his Camaro wearing a wife-beater and sporting a mullet.
edit: for the record I enjoy country music and my 01 Camaro ran four pounds of boost to pull mid-10s
and I proudly flew the georgia flag when it resembled the rebel flag despite the overabundance of melanin in my own skin
contender6030
New member
Antipitas,
How about when someone posts to an immigration thread with a racial slur or any other form of degridation SP? Remove that post instead of closing the thread entirely. I think I've been thru this before though haven't I?
That way an intelligent discussion can be had without those particular folks that want to sabotage the thread with their obviously off color remarks getting the thread closed.
Just a thought
How about when someone posts to an immigration thread with a racial slur or any other form of degridation SP? Remove that post instead of closing the thread entirely. I think I've been thru this before though haven't I?
That way an intelligent discussion can be had without those particular folks that want to sabotage the thread with their obviously off color remarks getting the thread closed.
Just a thought
JuanCarlos
New member
In fairness to STAGE 2 I'm guessing he'd have nearly as much problem with that extreme example as with the Latino example.
So now my question is how do we go about stopping those people at the Alabama border? Build a wall? Call the Guard?
Sure it is. We aren't talking about multi lingual americans, so stop with the smoke screen. We are talking about people who refuse to speak english who are illegally here. Their refusal to speak english has created dual education programs in elementary schools, extral forms and bilingual staffers at places like the DMV and other govermental organizations. All of this junk is paid for by tax payer money. My money.
We shouldn't pass a law mandating english, because we shouldn't need a law mandating english. If you can't speak it then you can't work. If you want to survive then learn the language. Most of our ancestors did, and today shouldn't be any different.
Again it is my business because it affects me financially for the reasons I discussed above.
But there is a larger picture here. I take a very hard line stance on this because of the seriousness of this issue. Most mexican illegals fly the mexican flag as a demonstration of their allegiance. They use it as a symbol of their disrespect and suggestion that they have some entitlement to california.
If I fly a scottish flag or someone flys a canadian flag its a wholly separate issue. I'm not doing it to piss on the US. Furthermore, if hoardes of canadians move into a neighborhood, proprty values don't drop and crime doesnt increase.
There are reasons why cities in LA county like Cerritos have managed to survive for this long despite the massive expansion of illegal immigrants. They don't allow non english advertising or the flying of mexican flags. They also have one of the highest property values in the entire county exluding private neighborhoods such as beverly hills. Neighboring counties such as Artesia and norwalk have huge crime problems and low property values and are literally next door. The only difference is that they don't have any such restrictions.
hmmm, so apparently illegal immigration cant be discussed as civilly as I would like it to be. Its really a shame because as a gun owner, I am very interested in other gun owners opinions on non gun related issues because I see you as "my type".
On the very thread regarding how we need to continue to be polite to each other, we have issues
On the very thread regarding how we need to continue to be polite to each other, we have issues
Shame on me for what? You may not like what I've said, but all the facts support me. I've worked extremely hard to have what I do. I'm not willing to let it be pissed away because of someone who has no right to be here in the first place.
If you had a savings account with 100k and someone just walked up and took half of it, you'd be livid, call them a thief, and demand your money back. How is that any different if the 50k comes out of the equity I have in my house? Answer: its not.
Absolutely. In fact the biggest problem we've had in the neighborhood is with a rent house on the corner with a bunch of 20something punks. They are up at late hours, drag up and down the street and don't take care of the yard. I love hot rods as much as the next guy. I have one in my garage. But I don't piss off the neighbors and act like an idiot when families are around.
Race isn't the issue. Behavior is. I don't care who I live next to as long as they act neighborly.
Nnnnnnooooo, that was caused by legal folk who are having a hard time learning english. You can pretend all you want that you'd learn German in two weeks if you had to live in Berlin but it's a load of crap. It takes a long time for a child to learn a new language, even longer for an adult. ESOL programs always have english language instruction as part of the curriculum to teach the kids how to speak english and get them into regular classes.
Legal children. Of legal immigrants.
Really? So if I own a store that sells south american soccer memorabilia what's the problem in me hiring a legal worker that doesn't speak very good english but absolutely perfect castillian and even better protuguese?
JuanCarlos
New member
Actually, you need to get out more. I've run into plenty of multi-lingual Americans who are more comfortable conversing in their native language than in English, and will do so whenever possible. I've met them from China, from Lithuania, from Germany, from Korea, from Mexico, etc. In fact, when you get down to it there's a whole island full of them.
And we've discussed the issue before that every American pays for crap they don't want to with their tax money. Bilingual forms, on the grand scheme of things, are probably one of the cheapest items that fall into this category. So yeah, I'm not moved here.
Don't like your property values being lowered? Move. I still have the right to fly whatever flag I want and listen to whatever music I want on my property. I have a right to let my grass grow just as long as I want it to...provided I've not signed a contract with a homeowner's association saying otherwise.
Yeah, it's totally worth throwing out the first amendment if it leads to lower crime and higher property values. I hear Australia has really low crime, too...maybe we should throw out the second as well?
I'm considering cross-posting this over into the actual immigration thread, since I think we've wandered back into that territory. I'll let you know if I do.
Actually, it is. You have no right to high property values. You still own your house, they've taken nothing from you.
Unfortunately, that puts an undo burden on the moderators to police threads. Plus, when only certain posts are deleted, part of them may have something worth reading, and it can be construed as censorship (makes the natives restless as they can never be sure what the missing post was sometimes)
Seems that most of the problems stem from inadvertent racism and people being called out on it, then defending themselves, causing an attack spiral. For instance, if one were to make a comment regarding "Obama the magic negro" and someone reading it didn't understand the background of the phrase and its recent editorial usage, they could EASILY be offended.
Of course, it must be mentioned that racism is all about group identification. That guy is mexican, he must vote democrat. This guy is black, he must hold his glock sideways. That guy is white, he'd make a better president. This guy is asian, he must eat a lot of rice. It is when the individual is ignored for (subsumed by) the group he is associated with that feathers are ruffled. i.e. If I see a latino and assume he is illegal because he doesn't speak English.
Maybe we just post an extremely simple 10 commandments FAQ that we can point people to if we feel that they are crossing a line... a bunch of "thou shalt not"'s that speaks of things to avoid that users can link to instead of making personal attacks. This will allow us to self police better.
1. Thou shalt not talk about God
2. Thou shalt not talk about abortion
3. Thou shalt not make personal attacks
4. Thou shalt not be a jerk
I am at a loss as to what it would be for immigration, though...
And ask yourself whether I'd be hired for a job in berlin if I couldn't speak German. The answer is an emphatic no.
And I'm fine with that. If people can find a niche where their skills are needed thats great. But again, this isn't the issue I'm talking about. The issue is people expecting the system to conform to them rather than the other way around.
Whether you are moved isn't the issue. Whether these things should be there is. These peograms are engouraging people to not learn english. If I was an immigrant here, and everything I needed I could get in my own language, then why would I bother to spend the time and effort to learn another language. You simply wouldn't.
Been there, done that. My dad grew up in Gardena and it was a nice neighborhood. Today, you wouldn't walk down the street at night. My mom grew up just a few miles away in inglewood. I don't need to explain what that city is like now.
The move argument is a temporary solution to a permament problem. Its kinda like the gun rights problem. People leave when they don't like it, but pretty soon there won't be anywhere to move to. Running away from somehting doesn't solve it. I don't know about you but I'm not ok with people trashing my nieghborhood, my city or my state. 50 years ago LA was a nice place. Today its a complete crap hole because people decided to run rather than face the problem.
As far as you doing what you like on your property, legally you're correct. That said, most people don't particually like having the entire street pissed off at them and play along. There are other ways of negotiating as well such as calling the cops every time there is a noise violation, or reporting you if I see you tossing oil down the drain or other nitpicky things like that.
Requiring a business to advertise in english doesn't implicate the first amendment. Neither does mandating your house be a certian color, or limiting the number of cars you can park in your driveway.
You've got your wires crossed. I have as much right to that 50k in equity as the person does to their 50k in cash. Neither one of us has a right to make money or to have money in general. However we have a right to what we have obtained.
Either way however it is irrelevant. Whether I have a right to something is irrelevant if I actually have it. I actually have lots of equity in my home and a mass influx of immigrants could effect this. Its something that people who state that illegal immigration doesn't hurt anyone always overlook.
I disagree with that. If there were Germans looking for someone to help them [dig a ditch / clean their house / tote junk from their house to the scrapyard / sit on an assembly line putting piece A into piece B], and knew enough English and mime to get across to me what the job is, and could pay me under the table less than it would cost to legally pay someone else, then there is a chance. No, I doubt I would be able to get a job as a German police officer, but I do think your emphatic no is not so.
Would I be motivated to learn German? Heck yes! But if I spent 15 hours at hard labor not surrounded by German speakers, then that task will take a lot more time.
Of course, we may have to change Germany to another country in this hypthetical as the unemployment rate is so high it would exactly be a job seekers destination. But the point stands.
What about the morbidly obese guy that mows his lawn with his shirt off? (legal thing that would quickly drive away potential buyers in the area, thus dropping market value of the neighborhood) Where do you draw the line?
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