Immigration Threads on TFL.

[JuanCarlos]

You've got your wires crossed. I have as much right to that 50k in equity as the person does to their 50k in cash. Neither one of us has a right to make money or to have money in general. However we have a right to what we have obtained.

I've got my wires crossed? You have a right to your property, not its value. If your property value gets lowered, either by a changes in your neighborhood, changes in public policy, or natural disaster that's your problem. The same way that if somebody's cash depreciates due to inflation that's their problem. Or if somebody's investment in the stock market devalue that's their problem.

You have no right whatsoever to equity in your house. You have a right to the house that you've bought, no more. You don't "obtain" equity...it's a constantly changing construct comprised of the value of your house combined with how much left you owe on it. Guess what: like it or not you do not have complete control on the former. Nor does the government have any particular responsibility to protect the former for you.

So yeah, you have a right to what you've obtained. That's a house. You know, the thingy with the doors and windows and what not. Not some ethereal value that you or the real estate market have placed on that house as of today.

Either way however it is irrelevant. Whether I have a right to something is irrelevant if I actually have it. I actually have lots of equity in my home and a mass influx of immigrants could effect this. Its something that people who state that illegal immigration doesn't hurt anyone always overlook.

You don't "have" much of anything then. A lot of people "had" a bunch of equity in tech stocks back in 1999, too. They had no more right to those gains that you have to yours. Heck, just be glad that if your investment became worthless tomorrow, you'd still have a house.

I think of all the arguments I've heard against immigration, both increased legal immigration and illegal immigration, the idea that the government has some sort of obligation to protect your home equity is probably the least compelling one. I guess it's a notch above, "I just don't like brown people."

 

[Redworm]

And ask yourself whether I'd be hired for a job in berlin if I couldn't speak German. The answer is an emphatic no.

If you mean you wouldn't apply for a job in Berlin if you couldn't speak German, that's your choice but there are many people in many countries working for many companies who take jobs without knowing the languages of the countries they'll be working in. So yeah, if you worked for IBM and they said "We're transferring you to our Berlin office for a few years." you would not be fluent in German by the time you got there.

Ever taken the time to learn a new language? It takes years for most adults to attain fluency.

And I'm fine with that. If people can find a niche where their skills are needed thats great. But again, this isn't the issue I'm talking about. The issue is people expecting the system to conform to them rather than the other way around.

Yes, that was exactly what you were talking about. You clearly said you had a problem with people speaking any language but english in your presence and flying any flag but the American one in public.

Whether you are moved isn't the issue. Whether these things should be there is. These peograms are engouraging people to not learn english. If I was an immigrant here, and everything I needed I could get in my own language, then why would I bother to spend the time and effort to learn another language. You simply wouldn't.

I most certainly would. And it's perfectly reasonable to expect that even a twenty year resident of America that learned english as a second language will have an easier time understanding something written in their native tounge.

 

[JuanCarlos]

I'm thinking we could probably move the general immigration discussion over to our current immigration thread...

 

[STAGE 2]

I've got my wires crossed? You have a right to your property, not its value. If your property value gets lowered, either by a changes in your neighborhood, changes in public policy, or natural disaster that's your problem. The same way that if somebody's cash depreciates due to inflation that's their problem. Or if somebody's investment in the stock market devalue that's their problem.

You have no right whatsoever to equity in your house. You have a right to the house that you've bought, no more. You don't "obtain" equity...it's a constantly changing construct comprised of the value of your house combined with how much left you owe on it. Guess what: like it or not you do not have complete control on the former. Nor does the government have any particular responsibility to protect the former for you.

So yeah, you have a right to what you've obtained. That's a house. You know, the thingy with the doors and windows and what not. Not some ethereal value that you or the real estate market have placed on that house as of today.

Legally your incorrect. I do have a right to value in my house. If someone does something on their property which adversely effects my property value I can sue and I can collect depending on the particular conditions. But thats not the point.

Whether I have a legal, moral, ethical or spritual right to equity in my house isnt relevant because the fact is that its there. If I lose 50k of equity in my house its no different than if I lost 50k in stok or 50k in my savings. Its real, its money and its being lost because of actions other than my own.

I think of all the arguments I've heard against immigration, both increased legal immigration and illegal immigration, the idea that the government has some sort of obligation to protect your home equity is probably the least compelling one. I guess it's a notch above, "I just don't like brown people."

I don't know why you're arguing this point. Its a fact that when poor people move into neighborhoods property values go down. Illegal immigrants are exceedingly poor. The more of them that show up, the less desirable the neighborhood is.

Why anyone would advocate for decreased property value is beyond me. It has nothing to do with likes or dislikes and has everything to do with finances.

If you mean you wouldn't apply for a job in Berlin if you couldn't speak German, that's your choice but there are many people in many countries working for many companies who take jobs without knowing the languages of the countries they'll be working in. So yeah, if you worked for IBM and they said "We're transferring you to our Berlin office for a few years." you would not be fluent in German by the time you got there.

Ever taken the time to learn a new language? It takes years for most adults to attain fluency.

You simply can't equate a person working for a multinational corporation getting a transfer to a person illegally entering a country and trying to get a job. If I just showed up in germany and tried to get a job without knowing german my chances of getting a job would be zero. They probably wouldn't hire me since I couldn't speak the language and thats assuming the would hire me at all since I didn't have the proper papers.

I most certainly would.

Well, assuming you're being honest, then you're in the uber minority. If you don't have a need to learn a new language then you're not going to. The fact that you point out how hard it is is the prime reason why someone isn't going to do it if there's not a need.

 

[STAGE 2]

I'm thinking we could probably move the general immigration discussion over to our current immigration thread...

Thats fine.

 

[contender6030]

Nnnnnnooooo, that was caused by legal folk who are having a hard time learning english. You can pretend all you want that you'd learn German in two weeks if you had to live in Berlin but it's a load of crap. It takes a long time for a child to learn a new language, even longer for an adult. ESOL programs always have english language instruction as part of the curriculum to teach the kids how to speak english and get them into regular classes.

Legal children. Of legal immigrants.

Redworm,
I'll have to disagree with you on that statement. My children go to a school that has a high mexican attendance. A lot of these kids STARTED kindergarten in this school but we still (my son is in 3rd grade now) have a problem with the children not being able to speak english. It is not because they won't learn it. It is because it is not the parents priority for these children to learn the english language. The parents insist on speaking spanish at home and from what i've heard insist that the children speak spanish at home also. This is not only illegals but legals as well. If the parents do not emphasize the importance of learning english to their children---well you can figure out what I am trying to get across.

 

[Redworm]

You simply can't equate a person working for a multinational corporation getting a transfer to a person illegally entering a country and trying to get a job. If I just showed up in germany and tried to get a job without knowing german my chances of getting a job would be zero. They probably wouldn't hire me since I couldn't speak the language and thats assuming the would hire me at all since I didn't have the proper papers.

But we're not talking about illegal immigration here, we're talking about language because of the notion that those who badmouth folks that speak other languages are accused of being racist.

If someone walks into this country LEGALLY and speak a word of english there is nothing wrong with them working here, following the laws and expressing their culture - including flying the Mexican flag on their property - in your neighborhood.

Well, assuming you're being honest, then you're in the uber minority. If you don't have a need to learn a new language then you're not going to. The fact that you point out how hard it is is the prime reason why someone isn't going to do it if there's not a need.

Minority? Hardly. I can't think of any immigrant I know - legal or illegal but we'll stick with talking about the legal ones - or have ever met that wasn't trying to learn english. Why? Because you can't order a cheeseburger if you don't know how to say it in english, because you can't follow a football game if you don't know what the announcer is talking about, because you can't find your way to the grocery store if you don't understand the person giving you directions and most importantly you can't understand your American-born child when they speak english.

That is plenty of incentive to learn english even with the government helping those out who will understand things better in their native tounge. There is always a need and that need is the market. At the core Americans are consumers and to consume in this country one needs to speak the language.

That being said, the difficulty explains why those who have lived here LEGALLY for a decade still have a hard time speaking english. It's tough to learn when you're taught and extremely difficult to learn when you're doing it on your own. But the vasy majority TRY.

 

[contender6030]

Legally your incorrect. I do have a right to value in my house. If someone does something on their property which adversely effects my property value I can sue and I can collect depending on the particular conditions. But thats not the point.

Whether I have a legal, moral, ethical or spritual right to equity in my house isnt relevant because the fact is that its there. If I lose 50k of equity in my house its no different than if I lost 50k in stok or 50k in my savings. Its real, its money and its being lost because of actions other than my own.

Stage,
You are very badly mistaken her, while I agree with you on most points, the value of your home is not guaranteed. If someone builds a chicken house on the land next to my house and causes the property value to crash that is my problem. I have two options live there and shut up or sell and take a loss. Now if they do something illegal on the property next to mine I can sue to make them fix the situation but I cannot sue for loss in property value.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Stage,
You are very badly mistaken her, while I agree with you on most points, the value of your home is not guaranteed. If someone builds a chicken house on the land next to my house and causes the property value to crash that is my problem. I have two options live there and shut up or sell and take a loss. Now if they do something illegal on the property next to mine I can sue to make them fix the situation but I cannot sue for loss in property value.

Yeah, I've always been under the impression that provided whatever your neighbors do follows the law, including zoning regulations, building codes and any homeowner's association agreements that might apply, then if their actions (on their property) lower your property value you're SOL.

 

[Redworm]

Redworm,
I'll have to disagree with you on that statement. My children go to a school that has a high mexican attendance. A lot of these kids STARTED kindergarten in this school but we still (my son is in 3rd grade now) have a problem with the children not being able to speak english. It is not because they won't learn it. It is because it is not the parents priority for these children to learn the english language. The parents insist on speaking spanish at home and from what i've heard insist that the children speak spanish at home also. This is not only illegals but legals as well. If the parents do not emphasize the importance of learning english to their children---well you can figure out what I am trying to get across.

I was born here and and barely spoke a word of English until I entered kindergarden. In six months I was speaking just as well as the other kids because that's how effective dynamic immersion is. My parents - both citizens, one born right here - felt it was important to teach me other languages because they knew full well I'd be learning English from school. I knew Italian, Spanish and a little Portuguese (I knew those languages as well as any five year old knows any language, which isn't much at all) and learned most of my english from school.

It's ok for the parents to insist on speaking spanish at home, especially if those parents themselves speak very little english. The schools are perfectly capable of teaching children any language when they start from a young age, regardless of what's spoken at home. Now none of this truly matters in the legal sense because there's no requirement for natural-born citizens of the United States to learn english.


If your school has 3rd graders that they can't teach english to despite having tried for three years then the problem is with that school in particular. Ages 4-6 are the easiest years to teach a child a new language and language aquisition doesn't severely drop until almost into the teens. If those 3rd graders don't know english after three years then the school has not been teaching them.

 

[madmag]

To the point of this thread.

You can stop immigration threads, but that will not solve the problem of charges of racism. Does not have to be an immigration thread for that to happen. It can be about a news story involving a shooting of an illegal or similar. So, if you don't come to grips with this issue it will just persist in other threads....already has before the immigration thread. Solve it now or later. Make reasonable rules that preclude over the line racism, or continue to fight with people that inflate every suspect statement a major racial issue.

 

[contender6030]

I was born here and and barely spoke a word of English until I entered kindergarden. In six months I was speaking just as well as the other kids because that's how effective dynamic immersion is. My parents - both citizens, one born right here - felt it was important to teach me other languages because they knew full well I'd be learning English from school. I knew Italian, Spanish and a little Portuguese (I knew those languages as well as any five year old knows any language, which isn't much at all) and learned most of my english from school.

It's ok for the parents to insist on speaking spanish at home, especially if those parents themselves speak very little english. The schools are perfectly capable of teaching children any language when they start from a young age, regardless of what's spoken at home. Now none of this truly matters in the legal sense because there's no requirement for natural-born citizens of the United States to learn english.


If your school has 3rd graders that they can't teach english to despite having tried for three years then the problem is with that school in particular. Ages 4-6 are the easiest years to teach a child a new language and language aquisition doesn't severely drop until almost into the teens. If those 3rd graders don't know english after three years then the school has not been teaching them.

You are wrong again my friend,
It IS NOT the schools responsibility to make sure these children speak english. It is the parent's responsibility. This is the trouble in the US today, parents AND OTHERS want to pass the buck off on teachers and school systems making them responsible for THEIR children's education. THIS IS WRONG! If the parents do not make an effort to emphasize the importance of the education being provided them then the efforts of the schools and teachers is worthless.

 

[JuanCarlos]

To the point of this thread.

You can stop immigration threads, but that will not solve the problem of charges of racism. Does not have to be an immigration thread for that to happen. It can be about a news story involving a shooting of an illegal or similar. So, if you don't come to grips with this issue it will just persist in other threads....already has before the immigration thread. Solve it now or later. Make reasonable rules that preclude over the line racism, or continue to fight with people that inflate every suspect statement a major racial issue.

Yeah, you can find racist (or generally ignorant) overtones or straight-up racist (or generally ignorant) remarks in other threads as well. For instance, threads involving police shootings, or threads involving crime/police action in general...I remember seeing some crap come up in those in the past. Or the offhand "I hate homosexuals" comment (since deleted) from the "voting for Democrats" thread. It's not limited to immigration threads...but on the other hand I'd say they're one "brand" of thread where it's pretty much guaranteed to happen.

But I don't think adding them to the list of taboo subjects is a viable answer. Like I said, you start getting rid of any thread that makes racist (or generally ignorant) people say racist (or generally ignorant) things, we're just gonna sit around and talk about Ron Paul all day. No point even having L&P at that point, I'd think.

I think it might be nice if people around here (at least some) would start thinking when they post about who might be reading it and who they might be talking to. Think to yourself, "would I write this post if any given poster here was black, or Hispanic, or gay, or female, etc." I think a lot of folks think of this as a bit of an old-white-guy conservative clubhouse...I know, because I've seen the same behavior on ranges when no minorities are around.

That's a bad thing, though, because anybody can read these forums and as I said before these are the exact kind of stereotypes of gunowners that make us such an unsympathetic group.

 

[STAGE 2]

Stage,
You are very badly mistaken her, while I agree with you on most points, the value of your home is not guaranteed. If someone builds a chicken house on the land next to my house and causes the property value to crash that is my problem. I have two options live there and shut up or sell and take a loss. Now if they do something illegal on the property next to mine I can sue to make them fix the situation but I cannot sue for loss in property value.

No, I'm not. Taking you chicken coop example, even if there are no laws against it, if the noise or smell is ruining the neighborhood I can sue and recover from you.

While you aren't guaranteed THE value of your home, you are guaranteed A value in your home.

 

[UH1-D Rotorhead]

The reality is that in many of these gun forums, black, hispanic, gay, women, metro-sexual or whatever ARE in the extreme minority when it comes to membership...because so many feel comfortable talking the way they do because they are in the majority, absolutely no thought is given to the presence of the "other" guy or gal...it is the height of hypocricy to think that a so-called minority would give a rats arse about how some feel about hearing a foreign language spoken in your lilly white neighborhood, and that the mere presence of someone other than what you would like to see as a neighbor means anything...it doesn't...not to the one who is in the "minority" ...what it says to many of us is that there is a whole lot of education that needs to be done, and that having a black or hispanic friend by no means makes you an expert on race and ethnicity...to the contrary...many here suffer from a cultural and racial bias that only comes from how one was brought up...who's to blame for this ignorance? Do the math.

 

[Redworm]

You are wrong again my friend,
It IS NOT the schools responsibility to make sure these children speak english. It is the parent's responsibility. This is the trouble in the US today, parents AND OTHERS want to pass the buck off on teachers and school systems making them responsible for THEIR children's education. THIS IS WRONG! If the parents do not make an effort to emphasize the importance of the education being provided them then the efforts of the schools and teachers is worthless.

Not saying it's not the responsibility of the parents to teach their children, my point is that it's not wrong for them to teach their children their language. The point is that if those kids still don't know english after three years and starting in kindergarden then the school is not teaching them properly. It is most certainly possible to learn one language at home and another at school and be perfectly fluent in both.

 

[applesanity]

I'm gonna look real weird here and sort of agree with Stage2. Or at least, his approach.

I don't want low income housing or apartment complexes or anything of the kind. ....I don't care whether you're black, white, hispanic, asian, purple, pink, or blue. As long as they maintain certian neighborhood standards... you won't hear a peep from me.

Okay, so you're not actually racist; you just don't like poor people. But I'm not trying to attack you - let's just say that prejudices go both ways. More importantly, you know yourself well, and you know what you like and don't like. Now we can have an actual discussion. Some members are so afraid or unable to admit to themselves the prejudices that they harbor.

My parent's house flies a little US flag on the outside, and looks like Saigon on the inside. I don't think there's anything wrong with embacing your new homeland, while maintaining your heritage. There are, however, numerous examples that I see of immigrants who just flat out refuse to realize that they no longer live in the old country, e.g., not encouraging their kids to learn English, etc.

Unlike a lot of people here, I don't think racism should be as taboo a subject as it's perceived to be.... Every culture has its set of beliefs and customs. It's okay to generalize on cultures - by the definition of "culture" - and inevitably, you'll start generalizing on a race by exention. Race and culture does get blurred here and there. Big deal.

I will never in my life spend money on monogrammed golfballs, fannie packs, khaki shorts, cowboy necktie strings, or those godawful sweaters that I'll merely wear on my shoulders and tie a knot with the sleeves.

Well whaddya know - I do eat rice. And I know kung fu. I take off my shoes when I come home. (So I while I appreciate Stage2's honesty, I disagree with the whole "neighborhood standards" bit somewhat. I'll blast whatever music I want out of my stereo.)

How about when someone posts... a racial slur...? Remove that post

Besides the aforementioned censorship issue, I doubt anyone here is going to blurt out, "hey I'm gonna go shoot me a wetb___." No, it's about subleties. Again the example, "Colin Powell is so well-spoken." The moderators don't have time to sit and analyze subleties. That's our job.

(Pleated) Khaki shorts... man. Plus that oversized Polo that's been through the wash too many times to count, tucked in under that beer gut.

A possible compromise is for everyone stop getting so freakishly defensive or apprehensive when race issues, or any prejudicial issues, pop up. (Yeah right.) If you have a thing for blondes, then what in the world did the brunettes do to turn you off?

Follow me here on this one.... JuanCarlos, base on some rumor that I might have heard, I'm gonna accuse of you of being gay. What do you have to say for yourself?

 

[Redworm]

No, I'm not. Taking you chicken coop example, even if there are no laws against it, if the noise or smell is ruining the neighborhood I can sue and recover from you.

Yeah, you can also sue a fast food company for spilling hot coffee on your lap, doesn't mean it's right or that a judge will always agree with you.

No, you are not guaranteed A value of your home unless there's a real estate clause somewhere in the Constitution. If I build a chicken coop next to your house and follow every single law, you will not win that lawsuit.

 

[JuanCarlos]

I doubt anyone here is going to blurt out, "hey I'm gonna go shoot me a wetb___."

You'd probably be surprised. Maybe it got deleted before you noticed it, but that whole offhand "I hate homosexuals" comment wasn't a joke. Some guy was making a post that went something like, "I like to work with my hands, homosexuals make me sick, I believe in the second amendment, blah blah..." You know, basic self-description paragraph. The other two portions are paraphrased from what I can remember, but that middle one is verbatim. Didn't even think a thing of it.

That, and some of the posts I've seen here regarding Arabs/Muslims....yeah. Always followed by a "hey, just joking around and blowing off some steam" if you confront them of course.

Follow me here on this one.... JuanCarlos, base on some rumor that I might have heard, I'm gonna accuse of you of being gay. What do you have to say for yourself?

Sorry, I'm taken.

The only reason I ever clarify that I'm neither gay nor Hispanic is that I don't want people to think that my arguments are motivated by self interest/concern; I'd not be insulted by insinuations that I'm either one.

Of course, I think you're going after the whole "accusation of racism" parallel. *shrug* Don't think I've made any comments here that would suggest that I'm gay. Maybe I have. Don't much care either way, really...I have no problem just letting my words here speak for me. The harder you have to try and "explain" your words the more you should think about what they say about you.

 

[Al Norris]

On the very thread regarding how we need to continue to be polite to each other, we have issues.

But I don't think adding them to the list of taboo subjects is a viable answer. Like I said, you start getting rid of any thread that makes racist (or generally ignorant) people say racist (or generally ignorant) things, we're just gonna sit around and talk about Ron Paul all day. No point even having L&P at that point, I'd think.

A possible compromise is for everyone stop getting so freakishly defensive or apprehensive when race issues, or any prejudicial issues, pop up.

Regardless, this thread was not started, nor designed to discuss the problem with immigration, legal or illegal. I would wager that everyone knows this, including all of you that have taken the opportunity to hijack this thread... Which is now closed and unstickied.

I'm going to have to agree with STAGE 2 and begin my Potter Stewart act. I'll know it when I see it and for that unlucky person, the axe will swing... I suggest how you respond to such posts, that the swing may get you too.