I'm SO SICK of this illegal alien situation!

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Ok, I see what you're saying... But I think generally illegal immigration causes bad things. You're putting it a little to simplistically. To make a parallel, wouldn't you agree that legalized prostitution is safer and generally "better" for people then illegal prostitution? To me its the same thing, I think illegal immigration should be cracked down on BUT I also believe that legal immigration should be opened up and encouraged.
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I agree. Like I said, I believe as with guns, drugs and prostitution that the criminalization of the act is what perpetuates the majority of the problems.
Maybe it would help if we told elderly conservatives that this new tax base would be paying for their social security for the next 20 years!
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LOL that might help :p
Yes, this goes along with the jury nullification thread as well. The answer is in my opinion to let anybody who isn't a horribly diseased convicted felon into our country. (Basically, I'm sure its a lot more complicated and the details need to be worked out.)
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Agreed. :) Like I said before, open immigration with borders sealed tighter than a dolphin's sphincter.
 
I think the only thing you and I disagree on is the order in which it should be done.
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Not at all, I totally agree with this:
illegal immigration will be easier to control if we open up the legal routes first.
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But we have to make an honest effort to stop illegal immigration for a variety of reasons, border security, welfare of the people crossing etc. Not least of which is that I don't want the Mexican government to ship us all of their convicted felons like Cuba did.
 
What contribution to American society have ILLEGALS made, as a whole, or individually.

So far, all you've done is paid lip service to an economic transfusion, a welfare reform proposal, etc., nothing substantial to make a claim of worthiness of being here ILLEGALLY.
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You've made no claim of worthiness to why you should be allowed to remain here LEGALLY. You came out of the right vagina. Good for you. Your contributions to the martial arts community are actually less impressive to me than the fantastic job an illegal immigrant might do mowing my lawn, or the reduced price of lettuce at my local supermarket.

No, I've not done anything to impress you either (I would give you a google result, but apparently some high-profile dentist shares my name and has completely drowned me out). Then again, I'm not claiming some sort of worthiness or questioning that of others.

One murder commited by a firearm is too many. You're using the same argument as the antis.
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You noticed that too?
 
Redworm and JC, you still have not answered the question.

What contribution to American society have ILLEGALS made, as a whole, or individually.

So far, all you've done is paid lip service to an economic transfusion, a welfare reform proposal, etc., nothing substantial to make a claim of worthiness of being here ILLEGALLY.

Don't we have enough American citizens here dragging us behind without all the extra baggage from the ILLEGALS?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
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:confused: No less contribution than legals have made as a whole.

Aside from the economic impacts there's no inherent advantage to the nation in being here illegally as opposed to legally yet there is a powerful advantage to the nation having immigrants here in general.

It seems you've done some good things for the world of martial arts; I know one muay thai coach that seems to have long overstayed his work visa and is probably here illegally yet he trains some of the best thai fighters in the country. That's a benefit equal to what you've done, is it not?
 
No, I've not done anything to impress you either (I would give you a google result, but apparently some high-profile dentist shares my name and has completely drowned me out). Then again, I'm not claiming some sort of worthiness or questioning that of others.

Did I say I was a great contributor, all I asked was the question? I happen to have been born an American citizen, and spent 11 years of my life in the military protecting the Constitution I swore an oath to, to protect my country from enemies foreign and domestic. If this is not a domestic invasion from a foreign country, then I don't know what is. My contribution is noted, maybe not noteworthy to you, but to many who feel as I do.

Funny, I give my name and you don't, you scared of something?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
If this is not a domestic invasion from a foreign country, then I don't know what is.
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I can't see how it is. I highly doubt there's any national organization by the Mexican government or even by the millions of illegals. :o
 
Does buying a gun automatically mean you're going on that shooting spree? No. Crossing illegally does not automatically mean one is going to commit other crimes.
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That's true.
However, every crime committed by an illegal HAD A GOOD CHANCE of NOT being committed if that illegal was not in this country to begin with.
Whether there are 10 or 10,000 people killed domestically each year.
If 5 of those were committed by illegals, that's 5 LESS murders that would have occurred and 5 more people that would have been alive for a while longer.
And please, don't offer that "well, someone else might've done the crimes".
Whether they commit a crime or not is completely irrelevant.
Illegals do not belong here by the shear fact that they are breaking the law by being here.
Until the laws change, these people are criminals in the eyes of the law.
You do believe in obeying laws right?
 
It seems you've done some good things for the world of martial arts; I know one muay thai coach that seems to have long overstayed his work visa and is probably here illegally yet he trains some of the best thai fighters in the country. That's a benefit equal to what you've done, is it not?
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Not if he's here illegally. He should go back to his own country and train people there and make his contribution in the world of MA.

Not even in the same category because I teach an AMERICAN system of Chinese roots.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
That's true.
However, every crime committed by an illegal HAD A GOOD CHANCE of NOT being committed if that illegal was not in this country to begin with.
Whether there are 10 or 10,000 people killed domestically each year.
If 5 of those were committed by illegals, that's 5 LESS murders that would have occurred and 5 more people that would have been alive for a while longer.
And please, don't offer that "well, someone else might've done the crimes".
Whether they commit a crime or not is completely irrelevant.
Illegals do not belong here by the shear fact that they are breaking the law by being here.
Until the laws change, these people are criminals in the eyes of the law.
You do believe in obeying laws right?
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Again, same argument the antis use. Why do shoot down those arguments when it's something you like but use them against something you don't?

Like I said and CobrayCommando suggested: make legal immigration easier so we can crack down on the illegal immigration more efficiently.
 
Not if he's here illegally. He should go back to his own country and train people there and make his contribution in the world of MA.

Not even in the same category because I teach an AMERICAN system of Chinese roots.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
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So even though he's training people just like you, paying taxes just like you and not commiting any other crimes just like you...he's not contributing to society as much as you just because of the expiration date on his work visa?

I'll resist the temptation to argue about the supposed efficacy and merits of American influence on martial arts. :p But for the record, it seems like you do some fine work. :)
 
So even though he's training people just like you, paying taxes just like you and not commiting any other crimes just like you...he's not contributing to society as much as you just because of the expiration date on his work visa?
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Makes me think he'd say the same if Pedro Martinez the illegal immigrant cured cancer. "Oh, that's impressive and all...but they should still deport him, because it'd be more impressive if somebody who wasn't ILLEGAL had done it."
 
Not at all and I don't mean to justify the bad acts. I'm simply pointing out that those bad acts are not a result of illegal immigration.
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Yes they are. Some illegal isnt going to be able to get work here unless they obtain fradulent documents. They aren't going to be able to recieve medical care unless they go to the emergency room. They aren't going to be able to get auto insurance which leaves citizens to foot the bill.

All of these things are caused by illegal immigration. Thats simply a fact.
 
You've made no claim of worthiness to why you should be allowed to remain here LEGALLY. You came out of the right vagina.
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There has never been any need to make a claim of worthiness to enter this country. There still isn't. Its simply a numbers game. If you weren't born here, than so what. Life is tough.

Here's the problem. If I went to germany, snuck into the country and demanded that I be able to work, and recieve certian benefits, all of you here would call me a moron. If I was thrown in jail for this everyone here wouldn't be surprised in the slightest. But for some reason its different here.

The fact that you are so stuck on this worthiness aspect is also telling. It tells me that you know that laws are being blatantly broken. It tells me that you know you have no argumetn where legality is concerned.

Most of all it tells me that you sympathize with these people and actually believe that they are somehow entitled to be here no matter what kind of problems and dangers they present to american citizens.
 
Again, same argument the antis use. Why do shoot down those arguments when it's something you like but use them against something you don't?
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I didn't say anything about shooting.
I said "crimes".
No mater how you try to spin it, any crime committed by an illegal would not have been committed if he were not here.
You say you are against illegal immigration, but you are doing everything you can to defend the act based on peripheral points on "the laws are too restrictive" or other people commit the same crimes.
It's wrong.
It's illegal.
It needs to be stopped.
And not necessarilly by letting more in either.
Just make sure they come in throught the proper channels.
 
If I went to germany, snuck into the country and demanded that I be able to work, and recieve certian benefits, all of you here would call me a moron. If I was thrown in jail for this everyone here wouldn't be surprised in the slightest. But for some reason its different here.
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This is America! Be glad our policy is not decided by a popularity contest of nations.

No mater how you try to spin it, any crime committed by an illegal would not have been committed if he were not here.
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Yeah why have anybody living in America at all?

Instead of arguing philosophy, lets get down to Realpolitik. You're saying that we should do what exactly?
 
Most of all it tells me that you sympathize with these people and actually believe that they are somehow entitled to be here no matter what kind of problems and dangers they present to american citizens
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That's the "One World" crowd Stage.
They love America so much, they want to see it diluted and assimilated into some whole Earth conglomerate.
But would any of them move outta here?
Not a chance!
 
Makes me think he'd say the same if Pedro Martinez the illegal immigrant cured cancer. "Oh, that's impressive and all...but they should still deport him, because it'd be more impressive if somebody who wasn't ILLEGAL had done it."

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You have no idea how I think, and to assert your interpretations is otherwise unfruitful to the conversation. I would suggest you rethink your position.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
Why not adopt China's economic policy, since they are buying so much of our debt and we are buying so much of their goods?

You have no idea how I think, and to assert your interpretations is otherwise unfruitful to the conversation. I would suggest you rethink your position.
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You literally wrote, on this forum, that a martial arts instructor here illegally was not capable of making contributions to society.

It seems you've done some good things for the world of martial arts; I know one muay thai coach that seems to have long overstayed his work visa and is probably here illegally yet he trains some of the best thai fighters in the country. That's a benefit equal to what you've done, is it not?
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Not if he's here illegally.
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