hypothetical situation - unknowingly drawing on LEO

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'He yelled Police drop the weapon' and he had a badge and ID visible,
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This is SOP, I assumed folks would realize any legit LEO would do this, and I did not include it in my post. Obviously we are not just going to draw our weapons and start pointing them at people with no explaination. I would not do that even if in uniform and having just exited my marked patrol car with fancy flashing lights and everything.

Putting them both on the ground should ease the mind of the LEO at least a little bit.
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Keep dreaming.

I'm surrounded by idiots!! from the lion king.
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No comment.

I find it interesting that the people who seem most like "wannabe cops" are the first ones to starting bashing LEOs for whatever reason.
 
whatever BAD things happen because of this seems warranted. The guy gets shot even if he's a cop...sorry for him. You get shot and he is a real cop, sorry for you. I wanna think cops are smarter than to get into a situation like this. But, I'm sorry to say (and yes, I have many a cop friend) some cops, like anyone else are prone to being human and making mistakes.
 
I'm a cop for 10 years now.

#1. I am a staunch advocate for gun rights.
#2. Especially while on duty, I am NEVER putting my gun down.
#3. If someone points a gun at me (like in the Wal-Mart scenario), I'm telling them one time that I'm a cop, and to point it somewhere else. Thats happening while I'm finding cover, and forgetting about that skel I had. After that, someone's getting shot.
#4. If you're off duty, and carrying without a badge, you're wrong.
#5. You shoot a cop, especially one who you know is a cop, you get the needle.

CC is fine. When you start pointing your gun at the police, odds are you're at the very least getting arrested. But the reality of it is you're going to probably be paying some major heath insurance deductables in the very near future.

And if someone really thinks that they can order a cop to drop his weapon, ya been watching too many movies. I would like everyone to ask their cop friends to see if they would drop their weapon if some joe nobody pointed a gun at them while they were arresting someone. When ya do, send me a private message and tell me how long they laughed.

And blackwater, you would without doubt get the needle for shootin a cop who was executing an arrest. Ignorance is never an excuse. Just because you dont know something is illegal does not give you an excuse to commit a crime. (i.e. "I didnt know he was a cop") We're not talking about a Wal-Mart in Iraq, or the wild wild west. Think then act.

Ya'll can flame me if ya want, but I'm just callin it like I see it.
 
I once made a felony arrest while off duty. I was wearing Umbros and a t-shirt. I had my badge and ID card with photo on me as required. My thought is simple, why rush into anything? If the IDd LEO is NOT an active shooter, why make them nervous? Back off, back down and back to cover. Call 911 and explain the situation. Stay on the phone with the TCO. Ask them to have one (or all) responding units to run hot with lights and siren. If you and your brother are calm, the LEO is calm and the coroner collects no body. YOU are entitled to an autopsy for stupidity. Slow down and move to cover, establish 911 contact and simply let things unfold, making things happen is usually bad or fatal. Relax and get the facts.
 
1) He is in plain clothes, you don't know who he is, get him disarmed and under control.
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Like Erick said, this is NOT going to happen.

We are trained to NEVER surrender your weapon, under any circumstances. Think about it.

If I am holding someone at gunpoint--let's say, a hostage situation--and BG says, "Drop the weapon or I'll kill him/her", the only thing I am accomplishing by dropping my weapon is to give the BG two hostages. Moreover, I have almost certainly thrown my life away, as well as the hostage's.

This is what I would do, if I had someone at gunpoint--off duty--and someone came around a corner with a gun pointed...

BANG!

Here's a test, to be done with a friend with two cap pistols.

Simulate holding someone at gunpoint. Have your friend come around a corner.

Now, as fast as you can, flip your hand to the side, and crank off a round. Don't aim, just do it.

I can almost guarantee that you will get your round or rounds off before the second party can even pull the trigger.

So, what do you do?

BACK OFF. This is what cell phones are for.

Chances are, the LEO has his or her badge in plain view. You just might not see it. Call 911, ask for a priority response.

If the person is a real cop, they will appreciate your response.

If it is a BG, they'll find that their life just got real exciting. :eek:

Do NOT show yourself. Do NOT challenge the person. Do NOT surrender your cover.

And keep your sidearm holstered.
 
Doug --- It disgusts me to see you insult and impune the integraty of anyone here, twice as much for a cop that you have not even met or know.

Cops of course are trained to dominate a situation --- that is their JOB -- go into harms way, stop what is happening, take the stories and sort it all out -- to do this they HAVE to take controll, to protect everyone, first and formost themselves, they want to go home at the end of the day. Your compleate and utter failure to understand this is shocking though perhaps is should not be commming from a person who recently wanted to re-write the rules of gun handleing to include putting your finger in the trigger guard!

I personally think that the scenario is a good one and mirriors one of the more difficult ones presents in several classes I have taken.

A few important points :

1. A real LEO should be no danger and is already having a very, very bad day as if it was a UC bust or something there would be more than one of them so you are walking in on an already volitle situation.

2. Something pretty bad must have already gone down for any LEO to have a suspect held at gunpoint --- this is not going to be an first response to say a fleeing shop lifter, a public domestic dispute or argument that an off duty might find themsleves involved with.

3. Most fake LEO crimes occur in places where there will be no witnesses and little chance of the summoning of the real cops, not a Wal Mart parking lot.

4. In the intal response to a situation like this the best inital response of seeking cover, calling 911 and further evaluating is probibly nearly always the best bet -- you are there to track, montor and interveave as needed, you can always draw, and proceed but it's hard to pull a slug back, plus if this is as bad of a situation as you think some cover and tactical advantage of suprise is going to offten help with a good resolution, not hurt it --- sure I am the first to say if you are in the near vicinity of an armed robbery and have a clean shot take it, don't wait to find out if they plan to leave no witnesses, however this ain't that situation, it needs to be figure out way more before you are weapons free.

5. From all the LEO's I have hung with I would say it's very plausable that a badge might not be immediatly evident as a shield on a neck chain, belt or handing from a hip pack just is not going to be that visable except front on which is unlikely the view you will be getting.

That being said there ain't an easy resposne to this and some subjective factors are gona come in (is the supposed LEO holding a hi-point) however it merits prudance more than immediate action
 
OK... shooter john and I cleared up our part VIA private message. It appears I am getting lumped in as one of the 'uncooperative' types.

This is EXACTLY how I see it going...

First off... the scenerio started with you walking around the corner to an already drawn weapon. Regardless of weather or not the officer Id's himself to your brother... you were NOT there to hear it.

With that in mind... here goes..


Me: Drop your weapon!!

Them: I am a police officer....

Me: (after lowering weapon) Do you have ID?

Them: *shows me ID*

Me: *reholster and opologize. follow police commands from this point out*



I am not ready to just simply shoot anyone, but to stumble around someone holding my brother, an upstanding citizen, at gun point is definitly going to warrent a reaction other than just standing there and possibly watching my brother get executed.

However... I really feel that if the LEO acts like a professional than everything will turn out OK. I would never respond with "we'll see" or attempt to command someone who has said they were LEO. That would be silly on my part, and definitly a good way to start a gun fight.


The miscommunication, I think, came from people attempting to lump everyone into two catagories. What I was seeing was this...


Me: Drop your weapon!
LEO: *turns and opens fire*


Think about that for just a second. If you believed this was how it was going to happen, would you decide to simply engage without saying a word?




Shooter John... thanks for the PM. I feel a lot better now, knowing you are a true professional, and not someone who is just going to open fire on me.
 
Fwiw

Ok I missed the part where we are at a brightly lit Walmart's and there are all this witnesses around and the LEO has already indentified himself, in that situation I keep my gun covert as I am licensed to do and I am calling a lawyer on the cell phone and assuring my brother that everyting is going to be ok, to cooperate with the LEO. Again, handcuffs can be latter taken off.

As I understood this it was more a scenario where you turned around a corner, perhaps at night, maybe even in a dicey part of town, lets say into some deserted parking lot, alley, etc. and some guy in plain clothes was holding your brother at gunpoint, this does not mean necessarily with the gun against my brother's skin, it can be just trained on him, and this person has no visible id making it clear he was a LEO.

That changes things dramatically.

Also I never ask the LEO to drop his weapon, rather to holster it and cuff my brother, perhaps still not a perfect scenario for a LEO trained to never give up his gun and stay in control of the situation but face it, NO ONE that has someone behind him with a gun pointed at him is in control of anything, maybe that's where the Rambo comments come from. This is a battle you already lost, face it. Make the better of it.

To the LEOS here please remember that as I see this scenario. I have you at gunpoint and your back is turned to me, your weapon trained away from me, mine on you. Maybe I have tiny 38 and never shot a gun before or maybe I hae a very reliable 45 with Glassers and I am a well trained and experienced on leave seal, ranger, etc. with a lot of actual battle time under my belt.

Hoping to reach a "happy medium" and what I would consider if I placed myself in the shoes of the LEO a better option than getting shot I would show him that I have a permit for a gun, that I do not have any intention in shooting him but want to protect my brother from an unknown treath, that under the circustances I can't tell just by looking at him he is indeed a LEO, that I do have the drop on him but will let him holster his weapon, cuff my brother and call for backup.

Not a Ramboesque out for a trained LEO but I would think more reasonable than getting blown away for "must follow the book" mentality.
 
There are bad comments and reactions on both sides. This is what we trained for as a nightmare or no win scenario. The thing that disturbs me the most, are the leos on this forum who intimate that they would instantly turn and shoot you. I was trained to always comply with an ID'd LEO, and would want to do so. But if I calmly ask a man or his ID, and he responds only by whirling around and trying to shoot me immediately, I instantly think he is a bad guy and plug him. After all, why in the hell would a real leo whirl and shoot after simply being asked for ID? That is the kind of thing desperate criminals do, and desperate criminals get shot.

Leos have to learn that in this day and age they work among a largely armed populous, who happen to be good guys, and need to drop the "I am god and you will do what I say" attitude. No upstanding citizen wants to shoot ANYONE really, let alone a LEO. But to immediately whirl to shoot when asked for ID FAIRLY SCREAMS Bad Guy to me, and may sadly result in a very bad day for someone.....
 
Hypertheoretical Situation

Hypothetically in a few blinks of an eye! Meanwhile I limp out of WalMart trying to remember what my wife sent me to buy. I round the corner not noticing the people with drawn weapons. As I near the standoff my cell phone vibrates. I hear people yealing too but I can't understand what they are saying. (Since I'm pretty well deaf.) I go for my cell phone in my jacket pocket. The suspected badguy (whose really an undercover FBI agent) shouts, does a roll to the right while drawing his weapon and shoots all three of us.

I really enjoyed reading this thread and got to looking at it from my unarmed personal point of view.
 
Chris Phelps,

Think about the phase you used upon first confronting the unknown subject with a gun on your brother...

Chris Phelps said:
Me: Drop your weapon!!
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How do you think the officer will respond to that command? Should he assume you are just a law abiding citizen trying to help out your fellow citizen or do you think he might feel you are an accomplice. Do you really expect him to calmly respond that he is a LEO if he feels you might be an accomplice? I'm not saying he should start blasting right away, but he would most probably turn his weapon on you , announce that he is a LEO and give you a few quick seconds to drop you weapon and get on the floor. If you fail to do so, I would not fault the officer for shooting you. There is nothing Ramboesque about this reaction. You are pointing a gun an a law enforcement officer and for all he knows, you are an accomplice to the man he is arresting.

Think about the situation. The officer should already be tense from making an arrest at gun point. If he doesn't have any apparent back up, do you really expect him to comply with your demands, much less give up his gun and show you ID? The idea is ridiculous. Now if you announce that you are a police officer and that he should drop his weapon, that is another story altogether.
 
Derius_T,

You have to take position here. Are you speaking from the point of view that you have already drawn on the armed subject or are you asking for identification before you draw. These are 2 very different situations and warrent very different responses from the armed subject. If you have not drawn, I would expect a reply such as "This is police business. Move on." I would see no problem for the officer to then flash you his badge.

If you are pointing a gun at him, I don't care how calmly you ask for ID. He will most likely announce he is a LEO and order you to drop your weapon and "assume the position" on the ground. Failure to comply and he will most likely shoot.

Here comes the biggest issue. Do you believe the armed subject and do you comply or do you demand that he drop his weapon until his identity can be acertained by calling 911. I don't think this is realistic either.
 
We have been going around and around on this one....can we all at least agree that;

1) a LEO will not surrender his/her weapon to an armed civilian during an arrest.

2) If an armed civilian is pointing their weapon at a person claiming to be LEO, they should give him/her a chance to present ID.

3) This situation will be rare because when X sees Y's gun, and Y sees X's guns everyone will start shooting and we are still not sure if Z is guilty of a crime.
 
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Join Date: 10-31-2005
Posts: 540

We have been going around and around on this one....can we all at least agree that;

1) a LEO will not surrender his/her weapon to an armed civilian during an arrest.

2) If an armed civilian is pointing their weapon at a person claiming to be LEO, they should give him/her a chance to present ID.

3) This situation will be rare because when X sees Y's gun, and Y sees X's guns everyone will start shooting and we are still not sure if Z is guilty of a crime.
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Ahh but in this situation... X will see Y's gun... but Y wont know who is behind him.



How do you think the officer will respond to that command? Should he assume you are just a law abiding citizen trying to help out your fellow citizen or do you think he might feel you are an accomplice. Do you really expect him to calmly respond that he is a LEO if he feels you might be an accomplice?
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I think he should assume everyone is a bad guy... but realize that there is an armed person behind him and not make any sudden movements.

If I was in his shoes and someone commanded me to drop my weapon I would most likely either A) Announce that I was LEO while not moving, then wait for a response... or I would B) seek cover and then proceed to identify myself. I would not turn around for any reason... this is a good way to get shot. Once I have found cover and identified myself, I would respnd as I see fit, depending on their response.


As a Civilian, I feel that I would not be in the wrong for taking these actions. I would definitly lower my weapon upon verbal confirmation of ID, and upon seeing a badge or ID, either holster my weapon or set it on the ground depending on what the officer's directions were. I wouldnt worry much about fake badges if this was during the day with witnesses around.

This is definitly a bad situation, but a LEO who turns his gun on me is only going to make it worse. After all... do you think LEO's are the only ones who feel threatened by fast movements?
 
Stephen426, I would like to say I would ask for ID before drawing. I would think the LEO would only be too happy to show it. If he doesn't, I move away from him to cover and say loudly that I am dialing 911. (Loudly enough for ANYONE in the immediate area to hear)

But, if I were to draw 1st, then request that he ID himself, I would certainly not expect to be instantly whirled and fired upon. In my mind, a LEO would identify himself. A BG who is scared that the jig is up would whirl and try to shoot me. Why would a real leo instantly try to murder me if I ask for ID? That just doesn't say LEO to me. It says murdering crook....
 
A little clearing up

Resuming my point of view on this.

I walk into anyone pointing a gun at my brother and he sees me comming, alone or in a crowd I am not going for my gun, that would be asking to be shot no matter who is behind the already drawn gun, period.

I ask what's up, if he claims to be a LEO I ask for ID and offer assistance calling 911 while he cuffs my brother. Depending on how he reacts to this then one reacts accordingly. I am just another passerby offering to call 911 after all. My brother knows to keep his mouth shut in a situation like this.

I walk into the same scenario unseen by the gunman, not clearly identified LEO or BG I am going for my gun first, that is in essence why civilians carry. I have the upper hand and want to keep it in case it is a BG. If I tell the gunman that I have a gun on him and he tells me he is a LEO I want proof, I want to see a shield, a set of cuffs, if there are witnesses around I'll drop the gun after ID is produced, if it is a lonely dark alley I don't think so.

Now this is where it gets dicey, same scenario LEO is lone undercover with no ID, not even a set of cuffs, just his word. He better drop his gun and wait for backup.

Same scenario, armed LEO, Chuck Norris or BG whips around to point gun at me without a word, he is getting pumped full of lead until he drops for good or I am out of ammo.
 
bang


joking.....jeez

But seriously my little brother (17) actually had an officer order him out of his car at gun point at target parking lot and handcuffed him. HE TOOK BATTERIES
 
Well, I'm certainly glad to know that the god complex in many LEO's hasn't changed. As someone stated earlier, many LEO's need to just calm the hell down and realize that they are NOT God, they are NOT our masters, and we are NOT serfs who exist to please them.
 
Well, I'm certainly glad to know that the god complex in many LEO's hasn't changed. As someone stated earlier, many LEO's need to just calm the hell down and realize that they are NOT God, they are NOT our masters, and we are NOT serfs who exist to please them.
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Well, I was wondering when the first bash would be. I am pleasantly surprised that the thread ran this long without one.

Since all possibility of normal, courteous (and sometimes spirited) and civil conversation just flew out the window, I'm done with this thread. Have a good one, y'all.
 
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