hypothetical situation - unknowingly drawing on LEO

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1)He is in plain clothes, you don't know who he is, get him disarmed and under control.

5) If he is a true law enforcemtn officer he would understand the need for this and would cooperate as to not get himself, me, his suspect (my brother in this case) or any other people around shot in a misunderstood gunfight. He would be doing the same thing in my shoes. In a reverse situation, police don't know that a man in plain clothes with a gun is necessarily a victim defending himself, they just see someone with a gun and need to get control of the situation.
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Doug all I'm saying is a LEO is train not to give up his gun. Unless you are a LEO too, your are a threat in his mind, he will not comply with you. A criminal might back down and run, but if it is a true LEO and your not talking, and your not letting him reach for his ID, which he is trained to present when not in uniform, someone will start shooting. You will either be shot, or if your brother was doing something criminal, and you just killed a cop, guess what the punishment is for you??? "But it was an accident"...the judge never hear that before.

The only way to prevail on this one is talking and contacting 911 , and get guys in uniform on the scene. To answers someone question; you accidently draw on a law enforcment officer, If your a valid CW permit carrier, and you immediately stand down when you get the story straight, you will most likely be OK.
 
Doug all I'm saying is a LEO is train not to give up his gun. Unless you are a LEO too, your are a threat in his mind, he will not comply with you. A criminal might back down and run, but if it is a true LEO and your not talking, and your not letting him reach for his ID, which he is trained to present when not in uniform, someone will start shooting. You will either be shot, or if your brother was doing something criminal, and you just killed a cop, guess what the punishment is for you??? "But it was an accident"...the judge never hear that before.

The only way to prevail on this one is talking and contacting 911 , and get guys in uniform on the scene. To answers someone question; you accidently draw on a law enforcment officer, If your a valid CW permit carrier, and you immediately stand down when you get the story straight, you will most likely be OK.
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I understand what you are saying. LEOs are not trained to give up their guns. The whole senario is in any way an ugly situation. BUT the fact is, I have the clear advantage as my gun is trained on him and am more likely to come out on top, if faced with put down your gun or die what is anyone, LEO or otherwise, likely to do? I want him to pull his ID, but I don't want him making any moves drawing the unstable situation out until someone gets control of the situation. I want him to throw me his id after he has put his gun down and is on his knees with hands on head so:
1) I can see the ID in my hands, not just flashed from a distance, and confirm it, If possible, over 911.
2) I don't want him to have a gun in his hand or be in any position to easily get to it or any other weapons he may have on his person while I am looking at his badge, have gun in my hand, a cell phone in the other and am talking on it.
If I had to shoot him before his ID was confirmed, I would have to go to court, I could only hope that there were enough witnesses to describe the events so a jury would understand what happened. I would hate to shoot a policeman or any good guy, but I certainly don't want to put myself or my brother or anyone else at unecessary risk.
Again, reverse the situation. What would the cop be doing in my place.
It is an ugly situation unless nobody ends up shot. If it is about not giving up his gun then perhaps he should be ordered to stick it in his waistband (slowly) or holster it and then, with his nongun hand pull his ID (slowly)
But even then, he still has a gun on him and could reach for it if he thought that I was too distracted on the phone.
No policeman or anyone would approach a situation where they had to draw their gun to have the advantage and then give up that advantage until they had the situation under control.
Lets consider the other possible senario he flashes a badges or I lower my gun while he still has his and approach him to see his ID and HE IS NOT A COP, he turns out to be a bad guy with or without a fake badge and kills me while I am distracted and on the phone. Where does that leave me and my brother? Dead.

If anybody has a better idea or approach that would address these concerns then I'm all ears.
 
I understand what you are saying. LEOs are not trained to give up their guns. The whole senario is in any way an ugly situation.
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Yea Doug I'm suprised you did not think up this senario first.:confused:

I'm thinking this would be a rare event, either the CW carrier would shoot, or the cop would shoot the CW civilian while he/she is drawing their weapon. otherwise, in a crowded parking lot, it would just turn into a standoff until uniformed police arrived.
 
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The situation is a mess.

Assuming I have not already shot the person with a gun on my brother we are in a stand off situation and NOBODY is going to relinquish a weapon until LEOs arrive who I know to be LEOs. That means cars with flashing lights and guys in uniform.

We had a cop impersonator murder last year near where I live, I am not bleiveing some guy on the street who just says he is a LEO. At the same time anybody who thinks they can order a LEO to drop their weapon and get compliance is a nut. If anything, if the LEO complies he is only doing so to put you off balance while he goes for his BUG. The only thing YOU can do to assuage any fears the LEO now has is to insist that somebody call the police and suggest that you all wait there patiently until they arrive.

I am not relinquishing my gun to a "possible" LEO and any LEO is sure as hell not relinquishing his to me. If he is holding someone at gun point he has a reason to do so, wrong possibly but a reason. You showing up with a gun only reinforce his reasoning.
 
Doug

Have you seriously considered a part time career as a fiction writer? Your fertile imagination would lend itself nicely to just such an endeavor.

Imagine the possibilities.

-PB
 
Have you seriously considered a part time career as a fiction writer? Your fertile imagination would lend itself nicely to just such an endeavor.

Imagine the possibilities.

-PB
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Actually, yes... yes I have. Except my interest lies more in the movie industry.


It seemed like a good hypothetical situation to post. I read all of these " guy walks into a restraunt with an AR" situations, and such... so I decided to post this one. In my mind, it is a very scary situation to find yourself in... it tests your judgement and reaction probably the most any of us would ever be tested, and worst of all... it is very possible that someday someone might find themselves in this exact spot.



PS - I have a lot more where this one came from... all in good time.
 
what about?

Not perfect but this is definetivelly a very dicey situation, you don't know if he is for real and he pretty much is sure you are another BG, an armed dangerous one to boot trying to get a buddy with a long list of pending warrants on him.

Keeping your gun trained on him, explain your worry of him being for real, and that both you and your brother are standup citizens, some mistake has ensued and it is not necessary for anyone to get hurt.

Slide your CCW permit to him after telling him you are doing so, make sure to explain anything before making a move,the CCW will show him to a degree you are a law abbiding citizen, tell him to call it in and check and if he wants to go ahead, holster his gun and handcuff your brother, make sure your brother cooperates and makes this extremelly easy for the LEO, he can even drop to his knees and place his hands on top fo his head, hey he can drop his pants as well, the goal is no one gets shot, again making the LEO aware this is going to happen and assure him by making the point that you have the drop on him and you could had easily already shot him and both you and your brother flee if that was your intention.

Handcuffs can be taken off afterwards everything is cleared, hopefully this + keeping his gun in his holster or even at hand and being able to call in and see you are legaly bound to carry a gun will give him some sense of security, wait for backup that can prove he is legit then put your gun on the floor, be helpfull when they handcuff you and if you have any sense while waiting you would had already called in your lawyer.
 
not to be negative here, s it is a good thought provoking scenario, but I can see just this type of debate picked up and used by anti's.

See congressman, even gun guys aren't sure how to handle this type of situation. Citizens drawning down on leo's just trying to do their jobs!? Too much confusion! Innocent leos get shot. Thats exactly why nobody but law enforcement needs guns........:barf:
 
Engaging LEO- Bad Idea

Many are forgetting that not only are LEO's trained to NEVER give up our gun, we are also trained to DOMINATE ANY SITUATION that we are placed into. That being said, if I have had to go so far as to intervene into a situation off duty and I have a subject at gunpoint and another person comes around the corner with a gun, I will immediately engage that person as they are a threat to me. This is nearly a lose- lose situation, but for those of you who have said you would hold the officer at gunpoint, may God be with you. And for those of you who think you will tell the officer what to do and give him orders... THINK AGAIN, and be ready for a battle. That will be perceived as a hostile act and you will more than likely be engaged if you are armed. The only person that will give me orders when I am not in uniform, is some one who is in uniform. Then I will happily comply.

If you confront the officer verbally and emptyhanded, you will more than likely be ordered to the ground, and you should comply. Besides, if the possible LEO turns out to be a bad guy, why immediately let him know that you are armed, you will have given away the element of surprise. You have already given him two problems to deal with, and effectively divided his attention, at that point in a public place as busy as WalMart, a bad guy will run like the wind. If the bad guy for whatever reason doesn't run, and you are sure it is not LEO, then do what you must do, but I have never heard of a bad guy being so blatant in a public place.

If by chance you have survived drawing on a LEO, you should probaly expect to serve some jail time. I know here in Alabama you could and in my opinion should be charged with menacing if you fail to holster your weapon IMMEDIATELY, if you haven't already been shot.

Just my thoughts and opinion, and what you should expect from me and my training. I should also note that if I were forced to act as an off duty LEO, you can rest assured there will be a lifeless body, a screaming female, or some other extreme situation driving my decision to act, no one's petty issues mean anything to me when I'm not on the clock.
 
Many are forgetting that not only are LEO's trained to NEVER give up our gun, we are also trained to DOMINATE ANY SITUATION that we are placed into. That being said, if I have had to go so far as to intervene into a situation off duty and I have a subject at gunpoint and another person comes around the corner with a gun, I will immediately engage that person as they are a threat to me.
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Man... they dont train LEO's very well, do they?

OK.. my new response to the situation.. shoot the fker in the head without saying a word. If he was a BG, I saved my brother from a potentially fatal situation. If he was LEO, I saved my brothers life as well as my own.



Seriously... what good are police if they are trained to handle situations like this in such a manor as to make it better to engage immediatly than to attempt to identify?



If you confront the officer verbally and emptyhanded, you will more than likely be ordered to the ground, and you should comply. Besides, if the possible LEO turns out to be a bad guy, why immediately let him know that you are armed, you will have given away the element of surprise.
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If someone has a drawn weapon that is trained on my brother, you are out of your friggen mind to think I am going to empty-handedly confront him. Given your formentioned statement, I think I'd be better off confronting a BG than a cop.
 
You and your brother are in a world of $h!t basically. People don't point guns at one another and jibber jabber unless you're in Hollywood. In real life if you point a gun at me you better pull the trigger otherwise you'll end up dead. I have no doubt that once you point a gun at a LEO he/she will decide you are the primary threat and prosecute with a vengeance. I know I would.
 
A tip they taught us (and I learned the hard way) at the academy. Always challenge from a position of cover. I'd draw and conceal the weapon as best as possible and talk to the person holding my brother from behind something.

I'll play this from the other end. I'm the cop, holding a guy at gunpoint for something. In my mind, I have justified the need to have my gun out, which means that I think life (mine) or serious injury (others) is imminent.

The good thing about this thread is that it forces me to think ahead of time. In this slow-time where wits are clear, I think that had this guy wanted to shoot me, I'd be shot. So, in talking to me instead of shooting me, "you" are not necessarily an immediate threat to life. But I'd also think that if I had a guy at gunpoint, I'd be telling everyone that came out that I was a cop. Oh, and here in TN, you are required to carry your Dept issued ID (not just a badge) to ID yourself as a Police officer.
 
Man... they dont train LEO's very well, do they?

OK.. my new response to the situation.. shoot the fker in the head without saying a word. If he was a BG, I saved my brother from a potentially fatal situation. If he was LEO, I saved my brothers life as well as my own.



Seriously... what good are police if they are trained to handle situations like this in such a manor as to make it better to engage immediatly than to attempt to identify?
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Chris,
I hate to say it, but I agree with you,
shooterjohn (obviously a LEO himself...:eek: ) is taking a Rambo attitude that says "I am a bada-- and the whole world is my enemy. Don't mess with me!" rather than a cool calm and collected PUBLIC SERVANT. He's proud to be a professional killer rather than a professional servant. May God help us all if that is the kind of training and line of thinking that police are trained with today.

Police are NOT ninjas and they are not invincible. They are men, just like you and me and can be killed. They may have more training than one gun owner but have less training than the next but no amount of training will guarantee that he will not be killed.

shooter john, I seriously hope you are the exception rather than the rule to policemen.
 
More "Rambo" than this?

"If he I'ds himself as a LEO, I'd just say "we'll see about that." and demand that he drop his gun and put his hands over his head. Get him under control first squatting down on knees with hand over head. Then ask him to slowly reach for his ID and throw it to me and then get on the phone with the 911 operator and try to confirm over the phone if he was legitimate (IDs can be faked) and also call for uniformed police to come help. Once confirmed over the phone, I'd lower my gun, holster it and let him know that we are okay and hand him his ID and ask him what the trouble is with my brother. "
 
Doug, don't turn this into one of those threads.

You could, if you wanted, be in the place of the off-duty cop. You could be detaining someone at gunpoint for whatever reason (the same one the off-duty cop could hold them for). You are holding a BG which you witnessed committing a violent felony in walmart and waiting for the police to show up. The BGs brother comes out (and doesn't know what's going on) and draws on you. What do you think at that time? You know you have good reason to hold this guy. he's committed a violent crime. Do you think "oh, this other guy must just be a concerned family member?" Or do you possibly thing "holy *$&#^, this guys drawn on me and he's trying to rescue his "partner" and kill me?"

So, since we're talking hypotheticals here so that we can think about them ahead of time, don't knock a guy for telling you what might be going through the hypothetical off-duty police officer's mind. Take that information and apply it to your actions from the concerned brother angle. Now you know that perhaps the officer could think you're a fellow gang-banger (or whatever) instead of a concerned relative. How does that change your tactics in approaching the situation?

We can all gripe that people shouldn't think or act how they do. That won't change what they think or do. Instead, how about also thinking, "well, if they could think/act this way, what would I do about it if they did?" I thought that was the purpose of questions like this. Not badgering the people that try and give honest assessment of all the possible implications from a different side.
 
Group9: Hear, hear!

I didn't read anything in shooterjohn's post that's Ramboesque. Seems like that's exactly how LEOs are trained and should react in such a situation. A police badge holds more clout than a CCW permit. The LEO I'm guessing is more familiar with legalities of such situations, while CCWers must debate on the internet...

So while the supposed LEO may be in the right to detain your brother, and you might be in the right to defend your brother, y'all might both be dead...
 
Really, rewinding to the beginning, wouldn't the policeman ALREADY HAVE HIS BADGE OUT to prevent just such a problem? I mean, forget me, some other person in the lot might see it and think it a robbery and come to the rescue or some security guard might blow him away or even some uniformed cop around. If he is an undercover cop waving a gun around pointing at unarmed people and he doesn't have his badge out and ready to show people then he is asking for trouble.
 
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