hypothetical armed robber unaware of you

Angelsboy is right

Even as a LEO I am going to be the best witness ever. Unless he goes mental. Here's why. When on duty I am prepared for an armed encounter. I have a uniform, vest, radio, extra ammo, handcuffs, etc... When off duty I don't have all those tools to my disposal. If the guy goes off the edge, it's just a bad day to be an off duty officer in that bank. You have to take action.
 
What if I have my weapon in hand and the off duty / plainclothes cop in the bank thinks I'm part of the gang? Or the convienently located police sniper on the roof across the street?

In NY you have a duty to retreat (except in home). zIf he/she cannot see me, I'm getting the hell outta dodge.

NYC Drew
 
The parameters of the original scenario said:
"A person is holding a gun on a clerk".

While I appreciate the incredible caution and due diligence many are trying to express here, how this cannot be interpreted as an immediate threat to health and safety is beyond me.

Most BGs are not trained with proper weapons discipline or safety. His finger was probably on the trigger when he walked into the store.

If you are waiting for a sign, it will be the clerks brains splattered on the cigarette rack behind him.
 
Risky Business

Man,.........If someone here thinks he is going to shoot a BG with a cock weapon, finger on the trigger, and pointed at someones head, you have been smokeing something. I'm am not trying to be a smart@$$, but in that scenario you would have to make a "Nonreflex Brain Stem" shot. Anything else and he can still pull the trigger and maybe even kill more than one. That is a difficult enough task to do with a sniper rifle, let alone an offduty / undercover handgun. I don't know of anyone who makes a holster for a Rem 700 pss. I guarantee you would be prosecuted for causing the death of the victim, either in court or in the media.

The only way I would ever attempt it is if I am standing right behind the guy and can make a contact shot to the back of the head.
 
I use to think about this type of situation. I decided that should it happen, I would do nothing..unless the guy shot the clerk..or someone else. He would have to initiate the violence(i mean actually hurting someone). Honestly, I dont know the clerk, I could probably care less about him/her. I would primarily be concerned about myself and any family/friends with me. They would be my first concern..if I thought he/they posed a danger to us..I would secure my family, as best as possible, if they became aware of us, I would initiate the offensive. I feel bad for the clerk in this scenario, but perhaps they should have been armed, not that would negate his predicament. I will not open myself for any liability for anyone I do not know. I gave this scenario great thought after walking into my usual stop/store immediately after an armed robbery(knife brandished). I had become friendly with the clerk, nice guy, we agreed on many things, etc...I would have taken the shot on that bad guy. If I'd had the chance...poor clerk's been robbed twice before. Said he wished he could someday fight back..not for the store/money, but for the fear they put into him. Damn shame.
 
:rolleyes: If the weapon isn't used, then, I would do absolutely nothing other than to make ready, draw, and conceal my own gun by my side. ;)
 
nobody knows

If we knew what we did in situations like these - we wouldn't all be so active in these forums.

I wish I would do the following: check wheter I had a very good chance to save the clerk from the threat, pull and aim very slowly and silent at the back or the side of the BGs head and then shoot well aimed untill the BG stops moving at all.

I also wish that I would only escalate things and open fire if my chances to end up holding the only gun fired were excellent.

I wish that I wouldn't end up regretting why I didn't save a shot clerk athough I could have - likewise - why I started a shooting that killed innocent bystanders.

Tough question. Being a lawyer the answer just is - "that depends"
 
... I wish I would do the following: check wheter I had a very good chance to save the clerk from the threat, pull and aim very slowly and silent at the back or the side of the BGs head and then shoot well aimed untill the BG stops moving at all.

I also wish that I would only escalate things and open fire if my chances to end up holding the only gun fired were excellent.

I wish that I wouldn't end up regretting why I didn't save a shot clerk athough I could have - likewise - why I started a shooting that killed innocent bystanders ...
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:) Maybe English isn't your native language; and something has been lost in translation; but, I got 'a tell ya, that's some of the worst advice I've ever heard!

It might have passed muster 100 years ago in the old West; but it's positively antique in 20th century America. :eek:

PS: Besides, what happens if you do shoot the BG in the back of the head, miss the pons, and the BG reflexes, pulls the trigger, and shoots the clerk as a result of your shot?

Please DO spend more time in these forums! ;)
 
As an LEO, I was surprised at the off-duty training I received. We were basically told that we are to be good witnesses, and not to interfere except in the most extreme cases. I know the agency has to limit its liability to a certain extent, but it was still surprising.
 
Having reacted to violent threats against others before,

I can honestly say I don't know what I would do. It is always situational for me. I do care what happens to other people and I will engage; I know, not just `cause I'm saying it, but because I've done it . . . at least twice. Neither time involved the use of a weapon, though once the potential existed to escalate to that level (the other time, I was unarmed).

The scenario being discussed here is just too vague to know what to do for sure.

Do I think . . .

. . . citizens should stand up for and help one another? YES
. . . I should always draw my weapon at the first sign of trouble? NO!

Again, too many variables in this described scenario. Bottom line is that most people will never be trained up enough to handle every situation perfectly. We should just hope to God we are good enough and wise enough to do what needs to be done at the proper time.
 
I can't do nothin' lest I be out of uniform.

I am a United States Marine and proud of it! But, as a member of the armed forces, I am barred from interfering/participating in any civilian law enforcement action. However if out of my MARPAT or dress attire, I feel as if I could offer a countermeasure to a potential or active BG.

Though, I'm sure that a uniformed Marine aiming a .45 at ones cranium and commanding said BG to drop his or her firearm might be more intimidating than a Police Officer or even a private citizen performing the same action. I don't mean to offend anyone, but, it's known that a lot of cops can't shoot for crap, and the marksmanship of the average citizen may be questionable to the casual observer, but we all know what a Marine can do.

As I stated before I mean no offense to anyone, I'm just sayin'. Also I've been thinking of reenlisting in the Corps and maybe retraining as a Designated Marksman or something like that. Going from being behind the 120mm on an M1 to being behind an M14 is a big switch huh?
 
I don't mean to offend anyone, but, it's known that a lot of cops can't shoot for crap, and the marksmanship of the average citizen may be questionable to the casual observer, but we all know what a Marine can do.
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Maybe in the old days, but I don't think any stereotype about all Marines being good shots holds true today...especially with a pistol....
 
"Though, I'm sure that a uniformed Marine aiming a .45 at ones cranium and commanding said BG to drop his or her firearm might be more intimidating than a Police Officer or even a private citizen performing the same action."

Oh really, why would that be?


"I don't mean to offend anyone, but, it's known that a lot of cops can't shoot for crap, and the marksmanship of the average citizen may be questionable to the casual observer, but we all know what a Marine can do."

I was a marksmanship instructor for my company (Echo 2/6) when I was in the Corps, and shooting a rifle is alot different than shooting a handgun. The handgun course is ridicuously easy. Grunts handle and shoot their weapons often. Other MOS rarely shoot their carry weapons except for yearly quals.
 
Shoot the bad guy. You are justified to use deadly force to stop severe bodily injury to another person. Who says the guy wont shoot the clerk, then come and looking for witnesses to shoot? Then it's a shootout. End it before it gets to that point and before the bad guy sees you. Dont miss. that would suck.
 
Shoot the bad guy. You are justified to use deadly force to stop severe bodily injury to another person. Who says the guy wont shoot the clerk, then come and looking for witnesses to shoot? Then it's a shootout. End it before it gets to that point and before the bad guy sees you.
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That seems common sense to me. I've given my opinion to this type of scenario before and both myself and a friend of mine (who is an LEO) got ranted and flamed upon. In this scenario, the threat IS imminent. If I can take the shot without harming others, then the BG gets one to the head or center of mass - no warning given, no questions asked.

I am once again (no suprise there!) offended by those who stated, "Poor clerk! Sucks to be him/her. He/she should have been armed." Well, chances are, he/she is not. So does this mean you do not help him/her? Are you really that freaking selfish!?

Dont miss. that would suck.
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Yeah! No sh**!

-Snub
 
Order of Operations

1. BANG! BANG! BANG!

2. Go and examine the wounds created by my .45 (curiosity)

3. BANG! (He twitched in the direction of his gun.)

4. Apply for a grant from the Feds claiming that I was "involved" in research concerning ballistics and wounding that would be utilized by the FBI in determining the most effective handgun rounds and in the overall crime statistics.

5. Get a lawyer for the subsequent Wrongful Death lawsuit where I get to hear the "I failed as a mom" complainant describe how her boy was an angel and that it wasn't right how I shot her baby. Nevermind that her other eight kids are all in prison!! :rolleyes:

Vanguard.45
 
Most bank robbers want $, let them have it, make a good witness. Dont draw attn to yourself unless needed. Being stupid and playing rambo is going to get people killed. Its too bad that in that kind of situation, there aren't any good answers.
 
I think the majority is in line with my thinking - shoot only if the person warrants it. If the gun is "in his pocket" or anything of the like, screw it. If he starts getting tense and waving the gun around or if it EVER sweeps my direction, double tap.

He's holding his gun up to the clerk and you cap him, he accidentally caps the clerk - you've caused a death that might not have happened. It's a tough call, very situation-specific.
 
"SO let say you get a clear shot and you talk it, bad guy goes down and everybody is happy. Now comes the detectives and one of the first people they talk to is the clerk who was being robbed. NOW your case hang on what the clerk says. IF they say "he was about to shoot me" all is well, BUT what if they say "all this guy wanted was a few bucks for Christmas and he never had any intention of shooting me, I was not afraid and know he would be on his way, I'm not even sure he had a real gun", guess what happens now. Life as you know it is over."


i disagree. Americans are fed up with crime. if a BG has a gun in someones face, you do not know what his intentions are, and you wont untill its too late. if indeed he has a gun pointed at someone and you take him down, i dont think a jury in America would convict you.(criminal or cival)


having said that.... i honestly cant say what i would do in that situation. i think the right thing to do would be to put one right in his back and end it right there. hopefully none of us will ever have to find out what we would do.
 
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