hypothetical armed robber unaware of you

Derius has the right idea, . . . glad we both live in the same state.

Yes, . . . if you are fortunate enough to have your own firearm, legally carrying, catch the act going down: you have a moral obligation to do all in your power to protect the lives and health of those innocents who cannot protect themselves.

Just for the record, most banks forbid their employees to be armed. Their standard line is: "Give em the cash, pull the bill trap if you can, slip in a dye pack if you can, but don't make waves, send em on their way, get a good description, don't exacerbate the situation". I know, I worked for a major Columbus bank for several years.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
If you are in a bank most likely you won't be pulling any sort of firearm unless you are carrying illegally anyways since in most cases it is against the law to carry a firearm inside a financial institution and most of them have many signs out front stating that.

In a store. It is honestly highly unlikely that you would get a clear line of fire at the BG if anyone is in front of you and the panic that ensues if the BG openly brandishes the weapon would only make that worse.

In all likelihood all you would accomplish is getting yourself or someone else sent to the hospital with either the BG's or your bullet in them especially if your shot misses or passes through the BG and into whatever is behind him, namely the clerk.

Now with that no doubt flame worthy response done. I would not clear leather if anyone was in the store because I would only further escilate the situation. I would instead be calling 911 on my cell phone or trying to get the other customers to cover as safely as possible using myself as a shield for them if needed. Once that was done if the BG was still there and I had a clear shot I would call out and order him to drop his weapon and if he so much as flinched in my direction he would be getting number 1 of 6 130 Grain .357 Hydra Shocks seeking to make a few sucking chest wounds in his hide.
 
Quote from Wolfdog: "If you are in a bank most likely you won't be pulling any sort of firearm unless you are carrying illegally anyways since in most cases it is against the law to carry a firearm inside a financial institution and most of them have many signs out front stating that."


Don't know where you get this from, but you SURE don't live in Louisiana.
 
Well, I am disappointed by all of the "it's not my problem" attitudes in reply to this scenario. I think that the course taken has to be the one that is estimated to have the greatest probability of the innocent remaining physically unharmed. When someone points a gun at a person who is not threatening anyone, he has made it clear that he is willing to take innocent life. Robberies often turn into shootings. I do not know the statistical incidence of this; perhaps somebody out there has some data. I agree that a scan all around for an accomplice is important. If there is another present who might be an accomplice, then that raises the odds of escalation if a gun was pulled where the accomplice could see it. However, I do not think that an accomplice would rush in and make himself known if he saw the first man go down with a bullet to the brain from an unseen shooter. He would run like a rabbit. An attempted draw where an accomplice could see it would be dangerous, however. Now I wish to move past the matter of an accomplice.
I suppose there would be the possibility of the bad guy looking like the sort who is no threat, but that does not seem likely. Armed robbers are generally repeat offenders who are willing to kill, and he has demonstrated that he is willing to kill when he pointed the gun at the clerk. A way to end that threat would be to put a bullet into the center of his head, interrupting the CNS processing necessary to send a signal to the muscle that flexes his trigger finger. If there is nobody near the line of fire beyond him, which I have said there is not, then this should not be a risky shot. The clerk is not in line with him, which I tried to make clear. If necessary and possible, take a few steps to the side to align properly at a different angle. If a line of fire cannot be obtained which is free of the innocent, then the gun should remain holstered. Focus on the front sight, and stop the threat. Any warning such as "drop the gun or I'll shoot" raises the probability of the innocent getting hurt. I believe that the highest probability of the innocent remaining physically unharmed, in the scenario I described, is to silently draw the gun, assume a proper two handed grip, align the sights with the middle of his head, focus on the front sight, and squeeze one off without warning.
 
When someone points a gun at a person who is not threatening anyone, he has made it clear that he is willing to take innocent life.
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Unless you can read minds, you have no idea what someone is willing to do whether they're pointing a gun (real or fake) at someone or not.

Robberies often turn into shootings. I do not know the statistical incidence of this; perhaps somebody out there has some data.
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In the great majority of cases, robberies DON'T turn into shootings.....Which is why people who work in retail are generally forbidden to carry guns, and are instructed to give up the cash, and why it I'd rather be involved in a hold-up with with people who understand this, as opposed to people who are convinced they have a "moral obligation" to start shooting whenever they see a gun in order to save the day.
 
Sir Robert Peel, considered to be the Father of modern policing, noted that there is a historic tradition "that the police are the public and that the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen, in the interests of community welfare and existence."

Slinking away and "being a good witness" when you have the ability, the means, and the training to put an immediate end to an imminent deadly threat against the life of another means that you are shirking your solemn duty as a citizen of our society.
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Sir Robert Peel died 150 years ago. Firearms were not prevalent in crimes in England then. What firearms there were fired one or two shots. Most incidents like the above scenario would have involved a knife. Most men if they had money would also have carried a cane as part of the dress code. Sword canes were very popular back then. People without much money would frequently carry knives and impact weapons. The chances of someone other than those involved in the fight being injured were much smaller than they are today. Every bank, store or other business establishment where a stickup would be likely that I've ever been to usually has several people inside waiting to make a deposit, cash a check, make a withdrawal, or pay for their purchases. There are usually several employees on top of that. Any handgun that is powerful enough to have a good chance at incapacitating someone rapidly, is also powerful enough to shoot through someone. People when they panic are likely to move. Then you have the fact that you or the robber are likely to miss with some shots. If one of you is hit, there is a possibility you will fire a shot or shots involuntarily as a result. There is also the posibility that when you surprise the robber he will fire. Keep in mind most people in a bank, store, business establishment are going to be in a relatively small are around this. I'm a LEO and in that scenario I would call for backup and just wait and observe unless he was acting as though he was going to shoot someone or there were very few people present and the robber was acting rationally and calmly. I think it's a lot better to lose some money than get someone killed or injured when the possibility of that happening is less if you do option b(call, wait, and observe) than if you do option a(fight it out).
 
FrankDrebin wrote:

In the great majority of cases, robberies DON'T turn into shootings.....Which is why people who work in retail are generally forbidden to carry guns, and are instructed to give up the cash, and why it I'd rather be involved in a hold-up with with people who understand this, as opposed to people who are convinced they have a "moral obligation" to start shooting whenever they see a gun in order to save the day.
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Your right. Just give into them. Give them the money. Perpetuate (sp?)
the cycle. Be sheep. Be timid. Give the BG the money and he will go away.

When will this type of thinking STOP? They are CRIMINALS. They CHOOSE to be CRIMINALS. The rights reserved for law abiding citizens NO LONGER APPLY. If we delt with criminals in a much harsher manner, perhaps they would think twice before they murder, rob, rape, and spread fear?

Oh, I can beat to death and rape a few old ladies and the worst I will get is life in prison, where I have no bills, am always fed, have no responsibilities, and recieve medical care? Hmmm.....beats the situation I'm in now.

How do you STOP that type of reasoning? With FEAR OF SWIFT PUNISHMENT.
 
Your right. Just give into them. Give them the money. Perpetuate (sp?)
the cycle. Be sheep. Be timid. Give the BG the money and he will go away.
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If some potential hero with a gun caused any of my family members to be hurt during a hold-up he'd have a lot more than the hold-up man to worry about. I have a good idea of the proportion of hold-ups that result in people being injured despite cooperating vs. being hurt after somone tried to thwart the hold-up, and if you were responsible for escalating the situation because you felt the need to buck the odds to realize your hero fantasy, I'd be your worst nightmare.

How many people have you shot? Do you have any idea how hard it is to immediatly incapacitate someone who isn't a stationary paper target, assuming you're even able to get the first shot off? If you're so bent on changing things, why don't you hang out in the ghetto for a while with a nice car, nice clothes, and a fat wallet in the wee hours on a hot August night. I'm sure it won't be long before you have a chance to see realize your potential. Maybe Charles Bronson can play you in the movie...
 
Derius,

Did you ever give thought to the possibility that Frank might know what he's talking about? There are a lot of ways of nailing bank robbers, and you don't necessarily have a right to choose yours on the backs of innocent people. IFF you know for SURE that there is no backup AND you know for sure that you can kill this guy before he can kill or injure anyone else, I have no problem with your going for it. But what makes you so sure that that is the case? How do you know who each person in the bank is? Have you ever killed anyone before? How steady are you when people's lives depend on you? Speak from experience, please.

How about leaving the bank and nailing the guy when he gets outside? He's not going to let you? What makes you so sure he's going to let you shoot him inside the bank?

A lot of talk about a hypothetical that hasn't been fully hypothesized, and no one IN the situation would be likely to know what all the facts really are.

I don't trust much of what I read here, except maybe Frank's.

520
 
I find myself agreeing with 520 and Frank.

I do feel that the laws regarding the punishment of violent crime are sadly lacking in this country. I do feel that something should be done to protect society, and to remove a large portion of the criminal element from society. However, actively removing those individuals from society is not the reason to carry a weapon.

I carry a weapon to protect not only my own life, but the lives of those around me. I do not own a weapon to be a hero. I do not own a weapon so I can play the part of an action movie character. I do not carry a weapon to enforce 'swift punishment'.

As long as there is no clear and immediate threat to health and safety, the weapon stays holstered, pure and simple.

Now, if the situation shifts where there is an immediate threat to someone's safety, that's the time to make a move. If you feel that unless you act, there is an extremely high probability that someone will die, consider your options. If you are confident of your ability to drop the individual, with minimal risk to the safety of those around you, and you have an absolutely clear shot, take it.

If taking the shot puts more people at risk, then keep that sucker holstered.
 
I'd wait until shots were fired or until it was painfully obvious (to everyone) that someone was about to be injured or killed. I would make sure that I was in a situation where a no-bill from the grand jury was a cake-walk. With my luck, if I acted sooner, under the ski mask it would be some 15 yr old kid with a mail order replica gun.

Lots of folks know I'm "into" guns. I would be a big target for a DA wanting to make a case against someone who was "just waiting for a chance to shoot someone." I shudder to think what the (totally legal) contents of my gun safe would look like spread out in a courtroom.
 
I'd wait until shots were fired or until it was painfully obvious (to everyone) that someone was about to be injured or killed. I would make sure that I was in a situation where a no-bill from the grand jury was a cake-walk. With my luck, if I acted sooner, under the ski mask it would be some 15 yr old kid with a mail order replica gun.
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A kid in a ski mask with a replica gun has a clear intent of making others fear for their lives.

Usually, putting someone in fear for their life makes them do what you want them to do. Other times, among a small percentage of people in nearly all the states, putting someone in fear for their life will get you injured or killed. If a 15-year-old kid is hard-core enough to go out making people fear for their lives, he's hard-core enough to take a bullet or two to center mass.

I wouldn't feel too bad about someone shooting him if at the moment they pulled the trigger they thought that it was a real gun, regardless of whether it turned out to be fake.
 
A kid in a ski mask with a replica gun has a clear intent of making others fear for their lives.
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Absolutely true!
I wouldn't feel too bad about someone shooting him
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Nor would I--but think of how it will play in front of a jury or in the headlines... A lot of CCW'ers think they'll be hailed as a hero after such an incident. Gun owners who think that way have forgotten who writes the headlines and what the press thinks about guns.

It's true that I have a duty to society--but I have a "prior commitment" to my family and therefore to myself.
 
I`m new to the forum,but do have my opinions concerning this scenario. My CCW package is intended for SELF defense. If "self" is not being threatened, then there is no need to take any defensive measures other than removing myself from the scene. If I can do this discreetly enough,my cell phone and descriptive abilities are the best tools I have to render my duty to society. In any event,my priorities will first be the safeguarding of my family(if we happen to be out together when we happen upon or otherwise become involved in a similar situation)or secondly retreating myself by the most efficient route if I happen to be alone. When retreat becomes impossible,the entire dynamics of the situation change dramatically for me and mine and it becomes quite possible that I just might wind up saving the lives of some others by engaging in the battle to preserve my own.
 
Fwiw

FWIW guys, the bank scenario may be the worst place to draw down on the tango. As a bank employee, I am trained in the three C's -- Comply, Comply, Comply!!! Unfortunately, I am not allowed to act. I have to do what the tango says and if safely possible, sound the alarm, usually after the perp leaves. At my branch in particular, we have no security on site. We have to hope and pray that the PD are nearby. They usually are, being that they have a <3 minute response time.

Now, that being said, if I were in the lobby as a customer, my first priority would be to get as much of a description as possible. My second priority is to find the nearest exit or piece of cover. If this is a quiet robbery where noone is the wiser except me, the teller, and the tango, then I will try to nonchalantly notify the nearest bank employee who should have the magic button at his or her desk.

A few LEO have told me that most bank robberies are for drug money. Rarely will you see any on the scope and scale of the LA shootout or what recently happened in Ireland. The guy will come in, approach the teller, and get out as quickly as possible. If he draws attention to himself, then the game is up and he is out the money. The two bank robberies that I have been in are just the same way. Before I or anyone else knew what happened, the robber was out the door. The first time, I made the mistake of trailing after the yutz just to get a description and license plate. The second time, the perp walked out the door and stopped behind the building to shed his disguise and toy gun. What he didn't realize was that he was right outside the lobby and everyone could see him through the mirrored glass.

Most robberies in a true bank lobby are done during the early morning hours. Right at opening when most of us are preoccupied with getting the coffee and answering our emails. I honestly didn't pay attention like I usually do the first time. I would have hit the button if I had seen something amiss. A little hint, if you want to live out this scenario, start doing your banking when the branch opens up.

The grocery store banks are the worst. These are usually hit by dime store thugs just trying to get some quick and dirty cash. You couldn't pay me enough to work in one of those banks. Thank Gawd my bank doesn't operate any. These are the guys who will come in and make noise. They are the most violent offenders. They usually will pistol whip someone to comply and show force. Way too much goin on in the store to attempt to stop the guys here.

Mini marts and liquor stores are not sound scenarios either. These are ofttimes violent robberies that occur and usually end up with someone (i.e. the clerk) getting shot and killed. Forget the roscoe, bring a street howitzer with you when you shop here. Nothing short of a 12 ga. will stop whatever hopped up drugged out maniac intent on robbing this place of business.

I think the greatest thing I learned in CHL class is being aware of my surroundings. I don't ever wish to try and shoot it out with an armed adversary in a storefront situation. The chance is too great that something will go wrong. Mr. Murphy will always find a way to foul things up.

IF AND ONLY IF the threat of imminent harm to myself and others is present, I will expend all the ammunition I have to stop the guy. I hope I never have to. Like some of you have said earlier, I have a wife to go home to as well.
 
I may go against the grain here,

but I'm going to say: stay calm, watch the situation like a hawk, get into a ready position WITHOUT letting your body language tip the robber that you are a potential threat, and hope for the best. After scanning the area to make sure that he has no accomplices, I'd watch that tigger finger real closely. If he makes any movement that would indicate he intends to fire, or if he is clearly acting negilgently with the gun as to cause a accidental discharge, then I might act. But, if I think that the situation might end with the guy getting the $ and bolting without harming the clerk, I'm not about to start a shoot out that could get me or the clerk killed.

That plus the fact that, even if I do get the jump on the guy, I still have a lot of problems. I just wanted a gallon of milk, now I'm in a police interview room being asked all sorts of questions, the DA is investigating the situation to decide whether or not to file charges and my gun, which I worked a lot of hours to buy, is now sitting in an evidence bag for an indefinite amout of time.

I'm not a police officer and it's not my job to stop crime. I carry a gun to protect myself. Now, if I think that clerk is going to get hurt, then I'll act to save another human being. But if I think that that the only loss is going to be the money in the register, then that's 7-11's problem.

No heroics here.
 
The best course of action is difficult to decide without visually inspecting the scene. But presuming that a miss won't endanger the clerk or bystanders outside, the best course of action is to carefully observe the situation and take action only when or if it appears that someone will get hurt.

If I'm in the store with my wife I will want her to exit via the side/rear door if possible while I stay between her and the BG, again if possible. Otherwise we stay out of sight and quiet until he leaves.

One concern I have with many of the responses here is that one must consider the possibility of making a good COM shot and ... nothing happens to the BG except he's startled by the loud noise. Like the owner of my local liquor store who took 2 .38 rounds to the chest and one to the arm, the BG is too focused on "other matters" to realize he's been hit. Double tapping a BG in this scenario and having him whip around and try to empty a pistol at me as he flees the store is not my idea of a fun night.

If I did take action it would because I had to take action now. Thus I'd not shout any warnings at the BG. Fairness plays no part here as I presume he didn't send a prior notice of his robbery attempt.

I'm also amused by some comments people make about "taking cover". One should realize that in most convenience stores there is plenty of concealment but damn little cover. Items on shelves will likely not stop a bullet, nor will the thin fiberboard which usually acts as the divider.
 
In my house, hes getting shot till he drops, when I get a good shot on him. Somewhere else, I am going to try to get away unnoticed and call on my cell phone. Im not going to get into any gun battles outside of my house, as the legal aspects are murkey. I would only shoot if I was cornered and nothing else could be done. Course, we have castle doctrine here, so it's my playing field in my house.
 
First off, I doubt I'll be in line behind a robber. The first thing a robber will do is get in the back of the line, or come when it's less crowded. The second thing he will do is clear the immediate area around him.
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Oh wow! I guess you've never seen the recorded video on TV where this exact scenario happened, except within a convenience store. It was a Discovery Channel special, or something similar. BG rolls up to register, points gun at teller, while the plain clothes officer is standing right behind him. He freaked (the cop). Immediate draw, stuck it to BG's head, and gave him the ultimatum. BG couldn't believe it! Dropped his weapon on the counter, and so it goes... In this incident the narration points out that often BG's get tunnel vision when doing their crime and are very unaware of their surroundings.

It's funny, because after watching that one video, I believe we have a much better chance of being confronted in a similar way, rather than a home invasion for instance.
 
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