how many rounds

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Pond, James Pond:

I am NOT going to read 240 posts before responding...

That puts you at quite a disadvantage.

It therefore follows that once in that small group you may find yourself in the even smaller group that need more than that average 2 shots.

Had you read the earlier posts, you would have seen that "that average of 2 shots" is not supportable, and that since it was described as the mean, the mode, and the median, the number is flawed.

The pitfall with this admission of vulnerability is that we then start thinking that we might need more than 2 shots.

We certainly should realize that we "might" need more than two shots, if you want to put it that way., particularly if we realize that there is a sound basis for training to fire there to five shots immediately at the first target.

We might need 3, 4, 24, 40.... Where do we stop?

Well, that has been discussed at extreme length in this thread.

 

[Pond James Pond]

That puts you at quite a disadvantage.
...
Had you read the earlier posts, you would have seen that "that average of 2 shots" is not supportable, and that since it was described as the mean, the mode, and the median, the number is flawed.

...
We certainly should realize that we "might" need more than two shots, if you want to put it that way., particularly if we realize that there is a sound basis for training to fire there to five shots immediately at the first target.

...
Well, that has been discussed at extreme length in this thread.

You forgot my opening advice!!

... so if what I'm writing is old hat, please ignore.

 

[drobs]

I think you cannot plan for every eventuality: that way lies madness. You just need to decide what you can realistically, comfortably carry without turning you life upside down and carry that. For me that might be my six-shot snub with possibly one speed-strip.

Speed Strips are sold as a 2 pack. Seems to make sense just to carry both of them. Not much thought required.

Me = Glock 19 & a spare G17 mag. Simple.

Where's the most likely place that I might need a gun for self defense out and about?

Gas Stations.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/o3dflhc

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Pond, James Pond:

You forgot my opening advice!!

... so if what I'm writing is old hat, please ignore.

I didn't forget" anything. It wasn't "old hat" at all, , it was just based on an incorrect premise that had already been discussed.

From me, in Post #34:

[the author] said that the most likely, the median and the average were--believe it or not--two. Think about it. Can you really visualize such a distribution? Would you believe it?

From Glen E. Meyer, in Post #42:

The correct approach to statistics and risks have already been made, so I don't need to repeat them.

I would just like comment on this:

If one needs that type of fire power then one is in the wrong place at the wrong time. IMHO

If that implies you are unlucky, that's correct. If it implies that you went to the wrong place - let me suggest these folks went to the wrong place:

1. School -VT or Columbine. IIRC, the safety officer ran short of ammo engaging the shooters.

2. Church - Colorado incident

3. Movies - Aurora.

4. Mall - Mumbai - watch the videos and see the folks defending the place realize they were running short for their handguns.

Now, I'm sure that most of you can fight at a distance with one shot from a J frame or two if there are more than assailants.

The realistic carry is a semi with about 10 to 15 rounds and an extra mag or two, if you want to deal with the small but quite possible extremes. Remember most common is not being in a shootout and then if you are in trouble just waving the gun around yelling "Begone".

Then take a stat course.

 

[Pond James Pond]

I didn't forget" anything. It wasn't "old hat" at all, , it was just based on an incorrect premise that had already been discussed.

Great. So all my reasons are invalid.

Are my conclusions?

You just need to decide what you can realistically, comfortably carry without turning you life upside down and carry that.

 

[pgdion]

IMO it's not the average you care about here. If you believe in averages you have no reason to carry at all because statistically speaking you are very unlikely to ever need a gun. So the real question is what's the highest round count ever needed and then hope you aren't the one to break that record.

 

[OldMarksman]

Folks, this thing is coming around the same orbit again.

 

[DUB]

multiple rounds for SD

If my 10 rds were 9mm,I might want more.If they are .45(they are),I would not be worried.

 

[RJM]

Are my conclusions?

No, your conclusion is solid.

 

[OldMarksman]

JP, your conclusions are"valid" if what you decide that what you can "comfortable carry" turns out to "work" in the event.works. After all, that is a rather subjective decision.

By 'works', I mean that you use if properly and that it proves sufficiently effective.

 

[OldMarksman]

For those who do not want to read the thread...

...a few salient points.

From Post #240:

No way on knowing beforehand how many shots will be needed.
There is an upper practical limit to what you can carry, which varies with personal opinion.

People choose what seems best to them, and one man's meat is another man's poison as they say.

IF you need it, you will need as many as you need. Having left over is better than not having enough.

Beyond that, I see no quantifiable standard that could be applied.

The only other thing I can say with certainty is that the people who didn't have enough aren't posting on TFL telling us about it....

From Post #246:

IMO it's not the average you care about here.

Neither an actual stat or a projected average means anything at all.

A few other relevant points:

• There is little basis for believing that any shot fired quickly at a fast moving attacker will happen to hit anything vital within his body--it's small, you can't see it, you don't know precisely where it is, it is moving, and you are shooting at something moving fast
• One will have to fire several shots to have much chance for that
• If one is attacked, it is not at all unlikely that there will be more than one attacker
  [*One would like to have some ammunition left over
• Reloading when soneone is charging you may prove something of a nightmare
• There is a practical maximum beyond which one who is not a sworn officer will have no need, because it will be over, one way or the other. we do not have to pursue a suspect.

What have I left out?

 

[Frank Ettin]

The OP wrote:

I have researched this question as to what is the Average shots fired by non LEO's for self defense....

Perhaps an interesting question, but the answer really doesn't tell you how many rounds you will need in your violent encounter -- if you ever have one. That's what's important, and no one can tell you the answer ahead of time.

 

[seeker_two]

Lots of replies, some wandering, but look what has been pretty well established,

No way on knowing beforehand how many shots will be needed.
There is an upper practical limit to what you can carry, which varies with personal opinion.

People choose what seems best to them, and one man's meat is another man's poison as they say.

IF you need it, you will need as many as you need. Having left over is better than not having enough.

Beyond that, I see no quantifiable standard that could be applied.

The only other thing I can say with certainty is that the people who didn't have enough aren't posting on TFL telling us about it....

Is there any further point to this discussion at this time?

I think that this post pretty much sums it up......

 

[jad0110]

IMO it's not the average you care about here. If you believe in averages you have no reason to carry at all because statistically speaking you are very unlikely to ever need a gun.

Agreed.

And it goes both ways. The average # of shots of 2 to 3 per engagement is often cited by folks that carry revolvers or something like a 1911, who are then impugned for relying on an average. But another average that gets cited a lot and challenged little is the ~ 25% or so average hit rate. Seems to me one should not accept averages EITHER way at face value (they can be somewhat instructive, of course).

I live an urban environment, and a 25% hit rate is absolutely unacceptable to me. Those missed bullets are going to go someplace. I train on the move (shooting and reloading), engaging multiple targets (albeit stationary) from distances of 1 to 20 yards and gravitate towards guns that I can maintain a high hit rate with and will carry everyday. I shoot as fast as possible while keeping my hits on 8.5 x 11" sheets of paper. And yes, its not perfect, no training is.

For me, I am most consistent (speed and accuracy) with K, L and N Frame S&W revolvers. 1911s come in second, and I am improving with my CZ-75, though I think I'll always gravitate to the revolver because I've experienced a significantly higher malfunction rate with autos (including the CZ) which does tend to color my perceptions ... others may have the opposite experience.

 

[Brit]

This has been an interesting experience, many different points of view.

A few points, that I can support.

1/ The handgun you carry, every day must be one you shoot best!

Mine a Gen 4 Glock 19. A wee bit smaller in girth. real good gripability, I know, not a real word the new wee pyramids, non slip.

With the best night sights on the market, TruGlo, perfect in sunlight also.

2/ Sixteen rounds before a reload is needed. A spare G17 magazine for when that reload is called for. Might I need 16? A flood of rounds to get out of the way of a group, or one person, shooting a lot of rounds. Yes I might.

My criteria, which pistol, can I draw and hit the quickest? My Glock 19 4th gen.

Which do I carry every day? As above.

 

[44 AMP]

Might I need 16? A flood of rounds to get out of the way of a group, or one person, shooting a lot of rounds. Yes I might.

You might. The odds are slim, but you might. You WILL be legally responsible for each and every one you fire.

TV and movie heroes get to trade shots, and spray wildly, creating their own cover fire (its in the script) without repercussions.

You and I don't.

The police have a legal dept, the resources of the government, and a mandate. You and I don't.

You might be in a situation where a volume of fire is something you HAVE to do. After the fact, other people (who aren't in peril) will hold you accountable for each round's damage if they possibly can.

Having to rounds to do it, when you have no choice but to do it isn't a bad thing. Having the rounds to do it and never needing to use them is an even better thing.

PLANNING on using all the rounds you can, if you need to shoot is not a good idea.

 

[Brit]

44 AMP, You are correct in your post, the Police do have more clout reference the cash and position in this Country of our's, and I am just an old guy, with a darling Wife of 22 years (we are joined at the hip) out and about together, or as now, she is still asleep (I think, me in the back room) but my relying on my natural aggression, I have lots of it! And ability in fighting, even as an old guy!
Physical ability.

I see my function in life, as the protector of this Lady, and my ability to do this is enhanced by my selection of a weapon, and ammunition, that in every way, helps me best.

I have heard "Spray and pray" add infiniteum from the old six-gun chaps, for years, but nowhere does that gel with shooting with care, shooting as accurately as time allows, as fast as you can, but not recklessly fast!

If the situation calls for two rounds? Having 14 left unfired is a problem? I don't think so.

I am not, and have never been a LEO, trained lots of them, different Police Officers have been in Gun Fights were many rounds have been expended, full pistol, and both spare magazines. Could this happen to a private Citizen?
I suppose, my carrying a Glock 19 with 16 rounds, and a spare 17 round magazine, is because I can.

And all of this is possible because I am a Citizen of the only Country of the world to allow it. Living in this warm and hospitable State that allows it.

In the past, as a younger man (I am 80YOA, on the 27th!) I have been in lots of physical altercations, as my Fathers Son in his Pub, as a Bouncer in Clubs in Liverpool UK.

I do not think my recognizing crap threatening abilities, have diminished too much, my abilities to punch and kick have!

So strategies change. And not frequenting the parts of my City at late hours, that open up those exciting avenues, helps, a lot?

Seems like Breakfast calls at this time, Happy Sunday.

 

[Pond James Pond]

And all of this is possible because I am a Citizen of the only Country of the world to allow it.

You mean except the other countries that allow it...

The States are set apart by having it protected by the Constitution, but a number of countries have it protected by law. Where I live being one of them.

 

[Brit]

I forgot about you, James! And Israel, South Africa? Got carried away in our little peninsula, yes?

Where is it you live anyway Finland? And is hi capacity allowed? As in Glock 19, my favorite carry pistol.

Back to bed, our time 4 AM.

 

[Pond James Pond]

I'm in Estonia. Not sure about Finland re carry. Over here no problem with Hi cap mags. You can even stuff your G17 in a KPOS SBR frame if you want! Makes the eyes water IWB, though!