how many rounds

[seeker_two]

Interesting item. Black powder tester. Closed chamber with friction fitted gate that shows how powerful the blast was from ignition of a measured charge. Tests for purity and dampness. Damp powder could usually be processed and dried and used. I'm sure that reprocessing was stopped Mary years ago when bp became obsolete for large scale usage.

Neat....a black-powder-powered pizza cutter!

 

[FairWarning]

As a funny aside many years ago on some forum or another folks were talking EDC and some dude posted something to the effect of I carry ......
GLOCK 17 with 4 extra mags
GLOCK 26 with 4 extra mags
Baton
Pepper spray
Two folding knives
Handcuffs (not a Leo)
Multi tool
Two flashlights
Keys wallet etc etc etc.

He finished with the way I see it I am ready for anything. The next reply was.

"Oh yeah, what if you have to swim " I started doing the slow clap in my head.

I'm betting he also had a full ninja outfit/costume, nunchuks, throwing stars and a Samurai (not ninja) sword. Oh and a gas mask in case of Mustard Gas attacks.

Also betting he couldn't run more than 30 yards without being short of breath or have much of a chance of taking someone down hand to hand. So many people think gear alone makes you ready to deal with problems.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Anything can be taken to an extreme.

A reasonable person:

1. A gun
2. A reload
3. A flashlight (very useful beyond gun fights, such as when the power goes out in the market and I'm the one that can walk out or when the car decides to spill it's oil all over the engine at night)
4. A knife - that opens things.
5. A small OC

Now if you want a Bug - that's not bad either.

 

[Doc Holliday 1950]

My original post morphed into a diverse discussion on such special info that I was amazed. Every once in awhile it came back to the origin like Glenn Meyer's last post.
I've learned more in 5 months from this forum then I have in 45 yrs. in carrying.
Thanks everyone.
Doc

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Glad that I shared my great wisdom!

 

[briandg]

AK, I believe that it may have had something to do with the aluminum. it's at least possible.
brass, copper, and many other metals, when compressed, retain spring. Lead, however, is dead, as is aluminum. It's possible that the compression fit against the primers weakened with age, allowing some tiny bit of wet air enter the primer pockets. The aluminum cartridges would still have flexed a bit as seasons changed, and fluctuating air pressures could have allowed just enough damp air to penetrate to the primers. Now how that managed to kill primers I still don't know. I have primers that have been stored in a lightly humid basement ever since 1990 or so, that still fire.

I haven't a clue, honestly, what may have happened, but it sure sounds like the aluminum was the issue.

Heat generally doesn't kill ammo, I understand. All over the middle east and other third world dumps, ammo is stored in uncontrolled conditions, and even that stuff remains viable for decades.

 

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by AK103K
Quote:
Now, this also applies to revolvers, the vaunted "simply pull the trigger for the next round" can be a really bad thing with a squib as well, and is actually much easier to have happen.

Thats the scary thing about revolvers. If youre not paying close attention, especially when shooting fast, things can get ugly FAST, and much more so than an auto.

You know it's funny, I've heard this repeated many times but I've had squibs before with ammunition that was normally very light recoiling (it seems Unique doesn't meter well in <4 gr charges for .38 S&W ammo) and I've never failed to notice it. I've even had squibs which still managed to get the bullet out of the barrel (though I suspect just barely) and I still noticed.

I guess perhaps if I were shooting a full-size revolver loaded with .22 Shorts it might be possible to fail to notice a sqib, but the risk of the gun blowing up with such a low-powered cartridge are pretty low anyway.

Honestly, there's really no good way to train for a squib in a gunfight. It seems to me that the two options would be take your chances with a TRB/Pull the trigger again or throw/use the gun as a club. Fortunately, with centerfire cartridges, factory loaded squibs are quite rare in my experience (much rarer in fact than hard primers or out-and-out dud rounds).

When it comes to stoppages, Ill take one in an auto over a revolver, any day! The autos are usually back into action pretty quick. The revolvers are usually DRT.

Again, I hear this repeated often enough, but it has not been my experience. Other than a squib here or there, only once have I ever had a revolver fail to fire due to something that couldn't immediately be rectified: my S&W 629 once broke its firing pin. Conversely, my CZ-75, which is normally an extremely reliable gun, once had an out-of-spec factory cartridge stick so tightly partway into the chamber that the gun had to be disassembled to remove it.

By and large, the dreaded "incurable lockup" in a revolver would be caused by a broken part. Semi-auto's however, are not immune to broken parts as things like firing pins, slide stops, recoil spring plugs, safety plungers, exctractors, ejectors, etc. have been known to fail at inopportune moments too. True simple failures to feed or extract are more common, but the more serious failures are not unheard of.

Honestly, I don't really think that a revolver is any more likely to have a "DRT" failure than a semi-auto is; small parts breakage can happen with either. The "DRT" failures just seem to get more attention in a revolver because easily remedied problems don't tend to happen much in the first place.

 

[Blackbook]

Anything can be taken to an extreme.

A reasonable person:

1. A gun
2. A reload
3. A flashlight (very useful beyond gun fights, such as when the power goes out in the market and I'm the one that can walk out or when the car decides to spill it's oil all over the engine at night)
4. A knife - that opens things.
5. A small OC

Now if you want a Bug - that's not bad either.

I'm thinking of replacing the OC with a Taser X26c. Not sure though.

 

[AK103K]

Honestly, I don't really think that a revolver is any more likely to have a "DRT" failure than a semi-auto is; small parts breakage can happen with either.

My experience with revolvers over the years, seems to be different than yours.

Some of them were broken parts, a couple of S&W 940's had broken parts which locked up both guns, and they had to be disassembled to get the remaining live rounds out, so they could be returned.

Some were things that at the time, put the gun out of action, but they were not permanently disabled and the gun didnt have to go back for repair, but would not have been back in action until the problem was remedied.

Things like....

... the ejector rod backed out, and locked up the cylinder.

... the cylinder retaining screw fell out, and the cylinder fell off the gun during a reload.

... bullets jumping their crimps on the wrong side of the rotation, stopping the gun, and requiring the bullet be taped back in to get the cylinder open.

... some out of spec rims on factory .45Colt cases that bound the gun up, dragging on the shield.

... accumulated crap under the extractor star that caused the cylinder to bind up to the point you couldnt pull the trigger, or thumb cock the gun. Something that is not solved by reloading either.

... and squibs, that pushed the bullet into the forcing cone, but not past the face of the cylinder, tying things up until the bullet was tapped back into the cylinder.


Some of the above (actually, all of them) were just part of the revolver learning curve. Things like putting thread locker on screws and ejector rods, learning to reload the gun properly, so you dont get crap under the star, etc.

Ammo, factory or reloads, will always be a hit or miss issue. Most of both are rarely an issue, but when it is an issue, it often puts the revolvers out of action until the problem can be resolved, which usually isnt something done in the moment.

Ive had issues with autos as well, but 99% of the time, the TRB solves it. With some guns, like one of my Glock 17's in just the past week, the gun actually will still work, with the part broken. It broke a trigger spring, which I didnt discover until I was cleaning the gun. Im assuming it happened after I was done shooting, as I think I would have noticed the dead trigger when I let the slide go on a new mag. What I did discover, while cleaning, and trying to figure out what was going on was, if I held the trigger back as the slide went forward, the trigger would continue to reset and work.

Like you , Ive had out of spec rounds lock them up on occasion (didnt have to be disassembled to resolve, but it was a bear in each case, to get the gun open), and youre right, the gun now becomes a "ridge hand" type striking weapon, and actually a quite effective one, assuming youre close enough.

As far as squibs go, with either, normally, I do notice that something wrong occurred, that was out of the norm. Autos generally have a bit of a safety buffer, as the gun usually doesnt cycle. Revolvers dont give that luxury, unless the bullet doenst make it all the way into the forcing cone.

The real difference between the two comes when youre shooting quickly, under stress. There, I think the difference youll see is, the auto stops running, and the revolver stops putting bullets on target, even though you keep pulling the trigger.

 

[Blackbook]

I don't carry a revolver only because of the grip angle.

Give me a revolver that feels like a sig.

 

[pete2]

I normally carry a belt of 100 rounds, if I'm expecting trouble I may have an extra 1000 rounds in the pickup.

 

[Webleymkv]

Originall posted by AK103K
Some were things that at the time, put the gun out of action, but they were not permanently disabled and the gun didnt have to go back for repair, but would not have been back in action until the problem was remedied.

Things like....

... the ejector rod backed out, and locked up the cylinder.

... the cylinder retaining screw fell out, and the cylinder fell off the gun during a reload.

... bullets jumping their crimps on the wrong side of the rotation, stopping the gun, and requiring the bullet be taped back in to get the cylinder open.

... some out of spec rims on factory .45Colt cases that bound the gun up, dragging on the shield.

... accumulated crap under the extractor star that caused the cylinder to bind up to the point you couldnt pull the trigger, or thumb cock the gun. Something that is not solved by reloading either.

... and squibs, that pushed the bullet into the forcing cone, but not past the face of the cylinder, tying things up until the bullet was tapped back into the cylinder.


Some of the above (actually, all of them) were just part of the revolver learning curve. Things like putting thread locker on screws and ejector rods, learning to reload the gun properly, so you dont get crap under the star, etc.

I've experienced most of those things myself, but I've almost always realized what was going on and corrected the issue before it got to the point that the revolver was rendered inoperable.

For example, when I've had an ejector rod start to back out, I usually noticed the trigger pull getting rougher or the cylinder becoming harder to open before the gun was locked up.

When I've had screws back out, I've always noticed and re-tightened them before they fell out.

The one time I had a bullet jump crimp, simply pulling the hammer back enough to drop the cylinder stop allowed me to rotate the cylinder backward one position and thus open it without much drama.

When I got some WWB .38 Special ammo with a few deformed rims that wanted to drag the recoil shield of my M10, I simply opened the cylinder and ejected the offending cartridge. I did the same thing when I had a primer back out of a Remington .357 Magnum round in a Ruger SP101.

I've never had enough crud build up under the extractor to bind up the gun, and I'm not particularly paranoid about how I eject my empties either. Then again, I clean my revolvers, including the area under the extractor, pretty thoroughly every time I shoot them.

Honestly, most of the problems that would put a revolver out of action are entirely preventable if one simply cleans the gun and performs routine maintenance such as periodically checking to ensure that the screws are tight.

Also, many of these problems, if not prevented entirely, are something that takes repeated firing to lock the gun up. For example, even if just finger tight, I've never seen an ejector rod back out far enough to lock up a gun within one cylinder full.

Ammo, factory or reloads, will always be a hit or miss issue. Most of both are rarely an issue, but when it is an issue, it often puts the revolvers out of action until the problem can be resolved, which usually isnt something done in the moment.

Ive had issues with autos as well, but 99% of the time, the TRB solves it. With some guns, like one of my Glock 17's in just the past week, the gun actually will still work, with the part broken. It broke a trigger spring, which I didnt discover until I was cleaning the gun. Im assuming it happened after I was done shooting, as I think I would have noticed the dead trigger when I let the slide go on a new mag. What I did discover, while cleaning, and trying to figure out what was going on was, if I held the trigger back as the slide went forward, the trigger would continue to reset and work.

A TRB is nice and all, but I'd personally prefer not to have to do it in the first place. Even if the problem can be remedied by a TRB, you don't know that a TRB will be a viable option. If my gun stops shooting when someone intent on killing me is only feet away, I doubt I'll have time to do a TRB before that person is upon me.

As far as squibs go, with either, normally, I do notice that something wrong occurred, that was out of the norm. Autos generally have a bit of a safety buffer, as the gun usually doesnt cycle. Revolvers dont give that luxury, unless the bullet doenst make it all the way into the forcing cone.

The real difference between the two comes when youre shooting quickly, under stress. There, I think the difference youll see is, the auto stops running, and the revolver stops putting bullets on target, even though you keep pulling the trigger.

But what difference does that make in a self-defense situation? Shooting with an obstructed bore is equally dangerous whether you're pulling the trigger on a revolver or doing a TRB with an auto. At the range, you have the luxury of stopping and examining what caused the gun to stop shooting, but like I pointed out before, an attacker isn't going to take a time out for you to determine whether you had a squib or a misfire. If your gun stops shooting in a SD situation, you're going to have to either take you chances with a TRB/pulling the trigger again or simply assuming you've had a squib and throwing/striking with the gun.

 

[AK103K]

The one time I had a bullet jump crimp, simply pulling the hammer back enough to drop the cylinder stop allowed me to rotate the cylinder backward one position and thus open it without much drama.

The version I had, was on the starboard side of a Smith. There was no getting the cylinder open until the bullet was driven back into the cylinder.

When I got some WWB .38 Special ammo with a few deformed rims that wanted to drag the recoil shield of my M10, I simply opened the cylinder and ejected the offending cartridge. I did the same thing when I had a primer back out of a Remington .357 Magnum round in a Ruger SP101.

My experience here was with a SA Ruger Blackhawk, and it was a lot of work, just to get the rounds out of the gun. There was one out of spec case, and it basically locked the gun up. It took maximum effort, with two hands, just to get the cylinder to turn past that one round.

I've never had enough crud build up under the extractor to bind up the gun, and I'm not particularly paranoid about how I eject my empties either.

2400 can be real bad for this problem. It, and improper reloading tecnique were my baptism to how quickly the gun can be tied up.

Once I learned the reason, and how the unburnt powder got under the star, I learned from the experience, and learned the proper way to reload (both the gun and the ammo).

Using the proper revolver reloading tecnique, dumping the empties muzzle up, will pretty much eliminate the issue. Except for stuck/hung up cases, you shouldnt be touching the empties anyway.

Honestly, most of the problems that would put a revolver out of action are entirely preventable if one simply cleans the gun and performs routine maintenance such as periodically checking to ensure that the screws are tight.

Absolutely. But from of the many responses in the "do you clean your gun" threads, it sounds like a lot of people dont.

Another issue these days is, revolvers arent as popular as the autos, and for those unfamiliar, most of the things Ive listed, are still part of the learning curve with them.

Autos have their own idiosyncrasies, but they tend to be easier to deal with, and with less of a curve.

A TRB is nice and all, but I'd personally prefer not to have to do it in the first place. Even if the problem can be remedied by a TRB, you don't know that a TRB will be a viable option. If my gun stops shooting when someone intent on killing me is only feet away, I doubt I'll have time to do a TRB before that person is upon me.

As would I, but it is a necessary, trained/ingrained response to stoppages, if you carry an auto.

Its the only viable option, if space permits. If it doesnt, you move on to other options youre also practiced with. The gun is only one part of the equation, much, if not most of the rest, has nothing to do with the gun. But then again, this is a gun forum.

But what difference does that make in a self-defense situation? Shooting with an obstructed bore is equally dangerous whether you're pulling the trigger on a revolver or doing a TRB with an auto.

Agreed, and in either case, youre going to do what you train to do. Hopefully, that isnt stop, and try to diagnose the problem.

 

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by AK103K
Quote:
The one time I had a bullet jump crimp, simply pulling the hammer back enough to drop the cylinder stop allowed me to rotate the cylinder backward one position and thus open it without much drama.

The version I had, was on the starboard side of a Smith. There was no getting the cylinder open until the bullet was driven back into the cylinder.

As was mine. I was shooting .44 Magnum handloads in my 629. One of the cases was from a "retired" box of Hornady Leverevolution ammo which uses slightly shorter brass and, because I didn't realize it was in with my other cases, it didn't get crimped. I noticed it when the nose of the bullet butted up against the forcing cone. As I said before, simply pulling back the hammer enough to drop the cylinder stop allowed me to rotate the cylinder backward (clockwise on a S&W) and then open the cylinder to remove the offending round.

Quote:
When I got some WWB .38 Special ammo with a few deformed rims that wanted to drag the recoil shield of my M10, I simply opened the cylinder and ejected the offending cartridge. I did the same thing when I had a primer back out of a Remington .357 Magnum round in a Ruger SP101.

My experience here was with a SA Ruger Blackhawk, and it was a lot of work, just to get the rounds out of the gun. There was one out of spec case, and it basically locked the gun up. It took maximum effort, with two hands, just to get the cylinder to turn past that one round.

I didn't realize you were talking about a SA revolver. Sounds like it would have probably been easier to just open the loading gate, pull the base pin, and remove the cylinder completely.

Quote:
I've never had enough crud build up under the extractor to bind up the gun, and I'm not particularly paranoid about how I eject my empties either.

2400 can be real bad for this problem. It, and improper reloading tecnique were my baptism to how quickly the gun can be tied up.

Once I learned the reason, and how the unburnt powder got under the star, I learned from the experience, and learned the proper way to reload (both the gun and the ammo).

I have lots of experience with 2400 as it's my powder of choice for .357 and .44 Magnum loads (and probably will be for .41 Magnum too once I get around to working up a load I like in that caliber). I've had my fair share of unburnt granules of 2400 all over my guns until I figured out that it burns a lot cleaner if I bump the charge up a bit. Even so, just leisurely popping empties into my hand to be saved (pointing the muzzle up, but not completely vertical), I've never had issues with gunk under the extractor.

Then again, I clean my revolver every time I shoot them and I'm also pretty careful about not leaving them dripping with oil. One of the biggest mistakes I see people who are accustomed to semi-autos make when they get into revolvers is over-lubricating them. Just a very thin coat to protect the finish (assuming the gun isn't stainless) is really all that's needed. When I'm finishing up cleaning my revolvers, I'm particularly careful to make sure that the area under the extractor is not only free of dirt, but also excess solvent and/or lubricant which might attract dirt.

Quote:
Honestly, most of the problems that would put a revolver out of action are entirely preventable if one simply cleans the gun and performs routine maintenance such as periodically checking to ensure that the screws are tight.

Absolutely. But from of the many responses in the "do you clean your gun" threads, it sounds like a lot of people dont.

Another issue these days is, revolvers arent as popular as the autos, and for those unfamiliar, most of the things Ive listed, are still part of the learning curve with them.

Autos have their own idiosyncrasies, but they tend to be easier to deal with, and with less of a curve.

If someone isn't going to take the time to clean their gun every now and then, that person is likely to have problems whether they choose a revolver or a semi-auto.

As far as the idiosyncrasies of a revolver, I pretty much figured it out on my own as I got my first one well before I became involved in internet fora. There was a bit of a learning curve I'll admit (like when I learned why applying gun grease to certain parts of the gun was a bad idea), but I never had too serious a problem primarily because when I noticed something unusual, I would stop shooting and investigate the cause before continuing to shoot.

Like I said, many, if not most, of the problems one is likely to encounter with a revolver give some warning before completely locking the gun up. In particular, a backing-out ejector, dirt under the extractor, or gunked-up B/C gap will usually yield a heavy, gritty trigger pull prior to seizing up the action. I would hope that most people unfamiliar with a given type of gun would stop shooting and investigate the cause of something unusual, but given the lack of judgement that many people seem to have these days perhaps that's too much to ask.

Quote:
A TRB is nice and all, but I'd personally prefer not to have to do it in the first place. Even if the problem can be remedied by a TRB, you don't know that a TRB will be a viable option. If my gun stops shooting when someone intent on killing me is only feet away, I doubt I'll have time to do a TRB before that person is upon me.

As would I, but it is a necessary, trained/ingrained response to stoppages, if you carry an auto.

Its the only viable option, if space permits. If it doesnt, you move on to other options youre also practiced with. The gun is only one part of the equation, much, if not most of the rest, has nothing to do with the gun. But then again, this is a gun forum.

My point is that having a gun that is least likely to malfunction in the first place is more important to me that one which has easily corrected malfunctions. In my experience with both revolvers and semi-autos, I've found revolvers to be generally more reliable particularly when we start looking at guns small enough to be comfortably carried in a pants pocket. I don't disagree that a TRB is important to practice if you carry a semi-auto, I'd argue that it's less important than properly maintaining the gun to avoid it's necessity if at all possible.

Quote:
But what difference does that make in a self-defense situation? Shooting with an obstructed bore is equally dangerous whether you're pulling the trigger on a revolver or doing a TRB with an auto.

Agreed, and in either case, you're going to do what you train to do. Hopefully, that isnt stop, and try to diagnose the problem.

But how do you safely train not to stop and try to diagnose the problem? If you're undertaking some sort of training to simulate the stress of a gunfight, how do you ensure that you don't TRB "automatically" in the case of a squib and blow up your gun? If you don't do the complete TRB in training, how can you ensure you'll do it completely in a gunfight?

The point I'm trying to make is that so long as you're paying attention to what you're doing, and you should be when handling any sort of firearm, a revolver is no more likely to KB from a squib than a semi-auto is. If, however, you're not paying enough attention to what you're doing, you can blow up either type of gun with a squib. Personally, I'll stop and make sure I didn't have a squib before pulling the trigger again or doing a TRB when I'm at the range because I've had a lot more range squibs than gunfight jams (not hard since I've thankfully never been in a gunfight).

 

[mavracer]

Some of the above (actually, all of them) were just part of the revolver learning curve. Things like putting thread locker on screws and ejector rods, learning to reload the gun properly, so you dont get crap under the star, etc.

I'd much rather focus on the learning curve than failure drills because as Webleymkv points out.

But how do you safely train not to stop and try to diagnose the problem?

As to the OP the correct # varies but the number of times where it's more than 5 and less than 17 are going to be an extremely small %

 

[44 AMP]

First off, I think it unfair to use any malfunction CAUSED by faulty ammo against either revolver or semi auto.

Bad ammo will keep either from running right. And while the ammo failure that ties up one might not the other, the opposite is also true. I consider it a wash.

I also think that a mindless "tap rack bang" may not be the best idea. And for all the "you don't have time to diagnose in a shoot out", I will agree, to a degree.

Frankly, no matter what you shoot, there is ALWAYS a chance of it being jammed in action. SO, perhaps the idea of a "New York reload" (second gun) is not such a bad thing, after all?

 

[Pond James Pond]

I am NOT going to read 240 posts before responding...

... so if what I'm writing is old hat, please ignore.

If you carry a gun, you are accepting the possibility of finding yourself in the very small percentile of people that are subject to an attack of some sort.

It therefore follows that once in that small group you may find yourself in the even smaller group that need more than that average 2 shots.

The pitfall with this admission of vulnerability is that we then start thinking that we might need more than 2 shots. We might need 3, 4, 24, 40.... Where do we stop?

I think you cannot plan for every eventuality: that way lies madness. You just need to decide what you can realistically, comfortably carry without turning you life upside down and carry that. For me that might be my six-shot snub with possibly one speed-strip.

 

[849ACSO]

Frankly, no matter what you shoot, there is ALWAYS a chance of it being jammed in action. SO, perhaps the idea of a "New York reload" (second gun) is not such a bad thing, after all?

It's hard enough to get the average CCW folks to train with the primary gun they will carry. Adding a second one will likely only exacerbate any problems that arise.........

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Where do we stop?

That's been discussed many times and is easy. One decides on the risk continuum what is a reasonable cut off for intensity of critical incident.

It is like the famous .05 or .01 stat cutoffs.

If you want to cut off at the one mugger be gone level - then a J frame with 5 rounds will do. A reload would be nice.

If you think you might be in a rampage, Mumbai, Westgate situation at a lower probability of occurrence - you might want a B-1B BUT a reasonable carry load is a semi handgun (Glock 19 as an example) and an extra mag. Could it be two mags - sure.

Of course, you could add more guns and a BUG. However, from those I know - these are reasonable carry equipment cutoff.

 

[44 AMP]

Lots of replies, some wandering, but look what has been pretty well established,

No way on knowing beforehand how many shots will be needed.
There is an upper practical limit to what you can carry, which varies with personal opinion.

People choose what seems best to them, and one man's meat is another man's poison as they say.

IF you need it, you will need as many as you need. Having left over is better than not having enough.

Beyond that, I see no quantifiable standard that could be applied.

The only other thing I can say with certainty is that the people who didn't have enough aren't posting on TFL telling us about it....

Is there any further point to this discussion at this time?