How Many EDC Full Size Guns VS. Compact Guns?

State magazine limits

I don't think anyone has brought up the factor of state limitations on magazine capacity in making the decision between micro, sub compact vs. full size.

Since I CCW in a state that has a limit of a ten round magazine, it doesn't make much sense to carry a full size glock 17 that has a much larger capacity magazine for that reason.

I carry a Kahr PM9 with an extended 7 round magazine with Magguts kit making it 8 in the magazine and one in the chamber. Therefore the balance of size, shootability and capacity is weighed against carry a larger compact like the glock 19 or 26 where I could only have 10+1 anyways. So does two extra rounds make the difference for carry a pistol twice the size of the Kahr PM9? Not for me.

It's always a compromise one way or the other.
FWIW, I can shoot the Kahr as well as the glock 19.
 
Since I CCW in a state that has a limit of a ten round magazine, it doesn't make much sense to carry a full size glock 17 that has a much larger capacity magazine for that reason.
Certainly not from a capacity standpoint, but it might make sense based on other criteria.
  • Larger guns have longer sight radii which tend to minimize sighting errors.
  • Larger guns tend to be heavier which makes them recoil less making them more shootable and getting them back on target faster.
  • Larger guns (talking semi-automatics) tend to be more reliable, all else being equal.
  • Larger guns tend to be easier and more comfortable to get a good grip on and controls tend to be easier to operate.
It is certainly maddening to not be allowed to use the full capacity of a firearm, but even in circumstances when that's the case, there may still be enough of an advantage to a full-sized gun to warrant carrying it.
 
Carl The Floor Walker said:
Agree, there is the internet and then reality. On two other forums they did a survey of how many members have actually used their guns and how many actually fired more than three shoots. Almost zero have ever used one, and just a small fraction have ever shot one especially more than three rounds.

I live in a city of 500,000 people. I actually had a job of viewing daily crime reports. Plus since shooting is my hobby and I am a active club member that went to the range about twice a week for many many years. In that time I have never known anyone personally that had to use a gun. The other people I know that have been shot that I knew were from negligent discharges.

Choosing a carry gun based on "I'll probably never need it anyway" is a really bad idea.

I've had a few criminal encounters. I know a couple of murders, I'm actually related to one by marriage. I also knew a few murder victims. It's been my experience that you're just as likely to run into two Vampires as one. I'm just not comfortable with less than ten rounds certainly not with five. Especially when I can carry a similar size gun with better ergonomics and higher capacity.

You do you.




High Valley Ranch said:
Since I CCW in a state that has a limit of a ten round magazine, it doesn't make much sense to carry a full size glock 17 that has a much larger capacity magazine for that reason.

I'm in the same boat. That's the biggest reason I choose a Glock 26 over a 17. If I was starting now I might consider a Glock 48 but since the 26 is adequate to my needs I'll continue to carry it.
 
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It is certainly maddening to not be allowed to use the full capacity of a firearm, but even in circumstances when that's the case, there may still be enough of an advantage to a full-sized gun to warrant carrying it.

As I stated:
FWIW, I can shoot the Kahr as well as the glock 19.

*There is NO disadvantage in regards to SD distances between a Sight radius on a 3" gun to a 4" barrel gun. ! inch cannot make that much difference at ten to 12 yards.
*There even could be an argument that in a physical struggle, a smaller gun would be harder to grab by the perp than a larger pistol.
* The Kahr has been 100 percent as reliable as any of my larger weapons.
* Very little recoil on the Kahr PM9....recoil, flip and control are largely determined by the ability of the shooter.
 
It's always a compromise one way or the other.
FWIW, I can shoot the Kahr as well as the glock 19.

This is often said about small guns vs duty guns, but there is never a qualifier. Just as well, slow fire at a static range? How about rapid fire (Bill Drill or similar), how about transitioning targets (El president, triple nickel) or what about reloads (FAST, Devil). How about shooting and moving, forward, side retreating while engaging multiple targets.

I say this because for me, that's where the rubber meets the road. Slow fire I was pretty impressed with the Sig 365 over my tried and true (and chunky) Glock 26. But as soon as I started shooting dynamically, the thin grips on the 365 became an immediate hindrance to keeping a solid grip on the gun and managing recoil properly, how easily I shot circles around it with the 26 was laughable, let alone a 19 or 17 (which I shoot better than a 26).

Not picking on you specifically and you very wellay shoot the kahr just as well as the 19, but it's just worth keeping in mind that if we actually need to use a CCW it's gonna be fast, confusing and chaotic and it's worth preparing as best we can.
 
This is often said about small guns vs duty guns, but there is never a qualifier. Just as well, slow fire at a static range? How about rapid fire (Bill Drill or similar), how about transitioning targets (El president, triple nickel) or what about reloads (FAST, Devil). How about shooting and moving, forward, side retreating while engaging multiple targets.

I say this because for me, that's where the rubber meets the road. Slow fire I was pretty impressed with the Sig 365 over my tried and true (and chunky) Glock 26. But as soon as I started shooting dynamically, the thin grips on the 365 became an immediate hindrance to keeping a solid grip on the gun and managing recoil properly, how easily I shot circles around it with the 26 was laughable, let alone a 19 or 17 (which I shoot better than a 26).

Not picking on you specifically and you very wellay shoot the kahr just as well as the 19, but it's just worth keeping in mind that if we actually need to use a CCW it's gonna be fast, confusing and chaotic and it's worth preparing as best we can.
I have been shooting the short barrel firearms for years. It is very seldom I have shot them as a Target gun. All the drills you mention etc. And there are many in my Club that do quite well with them as well. Now if you cannot shoot a small gun well, I get it. But understand that there are many that can. I am not saying you can pick up a pocket gun, snubbie or Micro 9mm and from day one shoot better than a duty gun. But if you put the time in it, you will be surprised at the ability of these guns to perform very well.
It is up to the shooter. You put in the time and diligent training, you reap big rewards.
 
I have been shooting the short barrel firearms for years. It is very seldom I have shot them as a Target gun. All the drills you mention etc. And there are many in my Club that do quite well with them as well. Now if you cannot shoot a small gun well, I get it. But understand that there are many that can. I am not saying you can pick up a pocket gun, snubbie or Micro 9mm and from day one shoot better than a duty gun. But if you put the time in it, you will be surprised at the ability of these guns to perform very well.
It is up to the shooter. You put in the time and diligent training, you reap big rewards.
Glad you put the time in, I wasn't saying I can't shoot all small guns well, just that one example. But even those I can, I will always shoot a compact/duty size equivalent better. Hand size is a big factor, I have wide palms and shorter fingers, so narrow grips are harder to lock in. I haven't tried it, but I'd wager the Hellcat would fit my hands perfect and I'd shoot it well, but I highly doubt it'd be as good or better than a Glock 19 no matter how much I practiced, assuming I kept up with the 19 too. Harder to get out of the holster as cleanly, small controls make reloads more problematic and recoil, while manageable, will be more pronounced. My comment wasn't saying folks can't shoot little guns well, it's that it's often unlikely they can shoot a tiny gun AS WELL as a duty sized gun in practical drills. Some can, I'm sure, but I've never met them.

Personally, I have never seen anyone actually do practical drills with a tiny gun, the few I see on the ranges will pop off a mag or two at 5 yards and call it a day. Glad you and your group do the fun stuff with the little guns too.

Caviat at the end, I have seen a few folks shoot the 365 well, especially the XL so it's kind of a tweener in the small/compact/duty size, just doesn't fit my hand geometry well. Perhaps if the hogue grips were available when I had mine I might have hung onto it.
 
Personally, I have never seen anyone actually do practical drills with a tiny gun, the few I see on the ranges will pop off a mag or two at 5 yards and call it a day.

This about says it all. Just because you haven't seen it, you doubt that there are people good with the micro pistols? And just because you can't, you doubt others can?
 
This about says it all. Just because you haven't seen it, you doubt that there are people good with the micro pistols? And just because you can't, you doubt others can?


He specifically said he can. He simply said he’s faster with larger pistols. That doesn’t seem like an outrageous comment.


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I don’t get were the “No” comes in. He said he could do the drills. He is suggesting people will be faster with larger pistols. Generally speaking from personally witnessing hundreds of students go through defensive firearms courses, they are faster with larger pistols. That doesn’t mean people still can’t be fast with smaller pistols. I witnessed a man go through a 2 day reflexive shooting course with a SIG P238 and do very well, up at the top of the class. At the same time we were shooting relatively close and I don’t know how the man would have done with a larger pistol.

I guess I don’t read his comments as the same level of condemnation as you do. We may just read it differently.


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You proved my point. If a fellow used his micro pistol and ends up at the top of the class, what does it matter if he even could shoot his larger pistol better, but chooses to use the smaller one for CCW? He's still way ahead of the curve.
 
The earlier point from jr24 was in regards to a persons’s performance relative to himself/herself. Someone being able to do well with a small pistol doesn’t say that person wouldn’t be able to do better with a larger pistol. To you that difference doesn’t matter as long as that person performs at some level (as a note when I say up at the top of the class I mean the top 1/3 of the class, still impressive but I don’t want this to come across as me saying he was the best). Maybe to someone else that difference does matter. I’d add you conveniently ignored where I said in viewing hundreds of people in courses most people with larger pistols were generally able to do better. That I can come up with an exception doesn’t, imo, disprove that generalization. jr24’s comment wasn’t that it was impossible for a person to do as well with a smaller pistol as a larger pistol, in fact he said someone likely could and he/she hasn’t met him/her.

To me you’re reading a lot into what seemed like a fairly even handed comment, especially for an Internet forum. If it’s because you personally choose a smaller pistol, as long as your own performance pays off don’t worry about convincing others on the internet.


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*There is NO disadvantage in regards to SD distances between a Sight radius on a 3" gun to a 4" barrel gun. ! inch cannot make that much difference at ten to 12 yards.
There's no established hard limit, either legally or practically for SD distances. It is true that handgun encounters are more likely to be close range affairs, but there's nothing that constrains them in terms of some arbitrary number of yards.

Does sight radius make a huge difference? Not really, but it does have some effect--potentially significant. Going from a PM9 to a G19 is a 21% increase in sight radius length which will reduce the effect of aiming errors on the target by about 21%.

So, for example A 0.05" sighting error will put the bullet off by 4.4" from the aiming point at 12 yards with a PM9. The same error with a G19 will result in missing by only 3.6"--about 20% smaller miss distance.
*There even could be an argument that in a physical struggle, a smaller gun would be harder to grab by the perp than a larger pistol.
Good point. It might also be possible to demonstrate that the larger grip makes it easier to retain a full-sized gun. I don't know that I've ever seen any studies like that--the results would certainly be interesting.
* The Kahr has been 100 percent as reliable as any of my larger weapons.
I carry a Kahr too. So far it has been very reliable. But in general, I have found that smaller semi-autos tend to be less reliable, more likely to be grip sensitive, and also more likely to have durability issues. I'm not saying that they are garbage or anything, just pointing out that some issues tend to be more likely with small guns. Ran into an article awhile back about someone who had bought a very small gun in .40S&W. The upshot was that he was never able to get acceptable reliability out of it. The small size and light weight made it so grip sensitive that he could only shoot a magazine or two out of it before it started malfunctioning due to weakening grip. Now that was an extreme example, but it does illustrate a good point.

Another thing to consider about grip sensitivity issues is that a poor grip is more likely in an SD situation. I noticed that in videos of real-world shootings, it was surprisingly common to see malfunctions even in full-sized guns that are normally considered very reliable. I finally realized that it was very common for a person in a high-stress situation to get a poor grip, to shoot one-handed, to shoot from awkward positions, or to shoot with an injury that precluded a strong/firm grip.

It's something to think about. As I said, it hasn't stopped me from carrying a small pistol, but I do realize that there could be ramifications.
* Very little recoil on the Kahr PM9....recoil, flip and control are largely determined by the ability of the shooter.
As I said, I have and shoot small Kahr pistols. The recoil is not punishing, but it is more than in a full-sized pistol. Same with muzzle flip. So much as to create a dangerous liability? Obviously not, or I wouldn't carry one for self-defense. But there's no free lunch when it comes to physics. Lighter guns will recoil more and have more muzzle flip, all else being equal.
FWIW, I can shoot the Kahr as well as the glock 19.
That would be pretty unusual. I think that operating with a timer and under some incentive to shoot as well as absolutely possible, you would see a significant difference between your performance with the two guns. I'm very accurate with my little Kahr, but when it comes to putting accurate rounds down range in a hurry, I do better with a larger gun--I've never run across anyone who shoots better with a small/light gun than with a larger/heavier gun in the same caliber when both speed and accuracy are factored in. The recoil recovery difference isn't something that can be escaped. It can be minimized, and someone with a lot of hand/upper body strength can probably make the difference a lot smaller, but it's not going away.

Ok, one other thing I noticed. The reason for carrying a PM9 is ostensibly capacity restrictions. While I get tjhe point and agree that carrying a smaller gun makes more sense when one can't carry more than 10+1 rounds, I don't think that a 10+1 capacity restriction is valid justification for going to a gun that only holds 6+1 rounds. I'm not saying anyone is under obligation to get right up to the limit, just that a solution that involves carrying a gun with a capacity of more than a third fewer rounds than the limit seems inconsistent with the stated problem. (Yes, I know that there are 7 round mags for the PM9, but the point remains that a 6+1, or 7+1, or 8+1, etc. carry gun is very likely being chosen for some reason other than to address a 10+1 capacity limit.)
Now if you cannot shoot a small gun well, I get it.
Not the issue at all. When I was adjusting the sights on my carry gun, I showed the final target to the range owner and asked him if he thought it was centered up well enough. He asked me about the target and when I told him I shot it at 25 yards, he looked at the gun and said: "With THAT gun?!" I still chuckle when I remember his expression. It's not that it's impossible to shoot small guns well, it's that people perform better with larger guns for a number of reasons.
You put in the time and diligent training, you reap big rewards.
Definitely true.
If a fellow used his micro pistol and ends up at the top of the class, what does it matter if he even could shoot his larger pistol better, but chooses to use the smaller one for CCW? He's still way ahead of the curve.
Sure. A person can get very good with a small gun. I often carry a small gun and there's no way I would do that if I hadn't achieved a satisfactory level of performance.

I think that part of what's going here is that we have some people talking about a difference in performance levels with small guns vs. full-sized guns and some people talking about an absolute level of performance with small guns.

Also, I think that some folks are interpreting the comments about comparative performance as if those comments are impugning their performance with small guns.

People can get very good with small guns. But the physics of recoil, and issues like sight radius mean that those same people will shoot better with larger guns. NOT that they necessarily shoot badly with small guns, but that their performance will be better with a larger gun.
 
JohnKSa said:
I think that part of what's going here is that we have some people talking about a difference in performance levels with small guns vs. full-sized guns and some people talking about an absolute level of performance with small guns.

Also, I think that some folks are interpreting the comments about comparative performance as if those comments are impugning their performance with small guns.

+1. People seem to be confusing relative performance among pistol sizes versus absolute performance among shooters as a whole.
 
To myself it is all relative. If you train with a duty gun 80% of the time and a Kahr for example 20% of the time, obliviously the duty gun will far out shoot the smaller pistol for that shooter. Vice versa. However we seem to be talking about shooters as a whole. And then consider how often a person trains with any firearm in general.
Myself and friends are abnormalities in the gun world. Lol, you could say "outcast". We shoot often and 90% of the time with short barrel guns no larger than the Micro 9mm.
And some of us have been shooting them longer, so more experience.
I have learned over the years to be able to draw quickly. I love the Concealment and actually call them "Sneaky Quick". Since I only shoot these small guns, if I were to carry and train with a duty size gun right now, I would find it Huge and awkward. Heavy to pull out or draw. I would not perform as well. That is just me.

Recoil-
Back in 2008 when the LCP first came out, I bought one. Took it to the range and thought the snappy recoil was brutal, and I was a terrible shot with them. Almost missed my first shot completely. But I was intrigued by the little gun and something happened that would change my range time shooting for the next decade and to present. I wanted to master this little sucker. Small barrel guns became a new hobby. Over the years I started to improve in many ways, met friends that like shooting these guns and this crazy hobby just grew.
I do not know if there is a immunity to recoil but now, for example I shoot the Kahr 380 or other similar size gun, I find them almost like 22 magnums. Very littel recoil. And all mine run very reliably. And I trust my life to any I own. Here is a P380 that I took to the range right before the ammo shortage. 200 rds that day and never once did the thought of recoil come into my mind. I very well could have gone on shooting all day had I brought more ammo.
As a whole, I do not see most people at the ranges shooting short barrel, small guns very often and other than the group of friends, rarely see any of them actually train with one. I think most people do find them hard to shoot, unpleasant and avoid them. And they will as a whole shoot the duty size guns much better. Maybe if I had chosen a different path and stuck with larger guns, I would be ahead of the game. But for me, just would not have been as much fun. Pick your Poison and become proficient with the gun you choose.
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While many shooters are now training with a 22.cal, and popular guns like the TX200 or the Glock 44 etc make great trainers for the folks that shoot larger guns. The Gun Gods, sent me on a different path. I shoot and train with the short barrel 22.cal guns. Each to his own.

tUXzirC.jpg
 
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Also, I think that some folks are interpreting the comments about comparative performance as if those comments are impugning their performance with small guns.

I was certainly not intenting to impune the skills or performance of anyone with any size gun.

People can get very good with small guns. But the physics of recoil, and issues like sight radius mean that those same people will shoot better with larger guns. NOT that they necessarily shoot badly with small guns, but that their performance will be better with a larger gun.

What I was getting at, but better said.

For example let's say any shooter has a Glock 43 and a Glock 19 (I won't use the Kahr in this particular example because the trigger pull is different and isn't as good of a comparative example). What I'm saying if the user practices equally with both platforms I find it extremely difficult to believe they will shoot the smaller, lighter, higher recoiling gun as well or better in practical drills. For a number of reasons largely based on size and physics.

That is not saying the shooter won't shoot the 43 well, heck I'm not saying the shooter can't shoot that little Glock better than I can shoot a full size, I'm just saying relative to the same skill level shooter the smaller tiny guns won't perform as well under the clock. And that's not even getting into capacity.

I apologize if I ruffled anyone's feathers, I certainly didn't intend to insult anyone.
 
I was certainly not intenting to impune the skills or performance of anyone with any size gun.



What I was getting at, but better said.

For example let's say any shooter has a Glock 43 and a Glock 19 (I won't use the Kahr in this particular example because the trigger pull is different and isn't as good of a comparative example). What I'm saying if the user practices equally with both platforms I find it extremely difficult to believe they will shoot the smaller, lighter, higher recoiling gun as well or better in practical drills. For a number of reasons largely based on size and physics.

That is not saying the shooter won't shoot the 43 well, heck I'm not saying the shooter can't shoot that little Glock better than I can shoot a full size, I'm just saying relative to the same skill level shooter the smaller tiny guns won't perform as well under the clock. And that's not even getting into capacity.

I apologize if I ruffled anyone's feathers, I certainly didn't intend to insult anyone.
No feathers ruffled and makes for a good debate. People will shoot and carry what is best for them. I like the small guns for self defense. I believe there are hidden treasures in Deep concealment. I shoot them well and they are my choice. Another person prefers a 1911. If that is the gun he performs the best for him, it would be ridiculous for him to carry a Pocket gun, snubbie etc.
Recently read a interesting article by Caleb Gidding. (not one of my Favorites but that is another story) and some may find it surprising his EDC is a Smith 642. And I applaud his choice as I love that gun and carry it as well. I especially liked what he said and I will paraphrase. 'I get a lot of heat for carrying that gun, but have long gotten past what people think'. I will try and find the actual quote later.

Guns are like shoes. One size does not fit all. And for the present we are still able to make choices.
 
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At the many CCW qualifications that I have attended, I see so many shooters qualifying with larger full size weapons......because that is the one that they shoot the best. But if you took a survey to ask how many actually carry everyday (which the instructor did one time), 80 percent or more did not.
The original OP asked, who EDC's a full size gun, not whether a full size gun was more accurate.

If they only practice with the actual gun they would feel comfortable to carry and got proficient enough with it, I am sure that most of they would prefer the smaller one.

FWIW I shoot better with my seecamp .32 than all the other 20 shootes that day. The qualifying officer stood behind me because he wanted to see how good I could do with that tiny pistol. I got on on the line on the A zone, but got all the other shots inside with a 100 percent to qualify.
I'm not saying that I shot the seecamp as good as my glock, but proficient enough for qualifying.
 
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At the many CCW qualifications that I have attended, I see so many shooters qualifying with larger full size weapons......because that is the one that they shoot the best. But if you took a survey to ask how many actually carry everyday (which the instructor did one time), 80 percent or more did not.
The original OP asked, who EDC's a full size gun, not whether a full size gun was more accurate.

If they only practice with the actual gun they would feel comfortable to carry and got proficient enough with it, I am sure that most of they would prefer the smaller one.

FWIW I shoot better with my seecamp .32 than all the other 20 shootes that day. The qualifying officer stood behind me because he wanted to see how good I could do with that tiny pistol. I got on on the line on the A zone, but got all the other shots inside with a 100 percent to qualify.


As someone that has owned S&W Shields, Glock 43s, etc I do not personally prefer the smaller pistols and in many cases I devoted quite a few rounds to those pistols. It wasn’t just a function of not practicing with those pistols. Smaller than a Glock 43 isn’t something that I really want to bother with. The exception to small pistols is my P365XL, though idk if that qualifies as small (it does for me). The P365XL shoots as well as my Glock 26 and has since replaced it. I generally carry a Glock 19 every day I am able to carry as I still shoot that better than the P365XL.

If someone prefers something smaller and enjoys carrying that, then great. I’m not condemning anyone. It’s true that a large pistol at home doesn’t help if the goal is concealed carry and people don’t carry it due to the size. At the same time, there are a number of people that do carry larger pistols regularly. My experience is that many people that do have a carry permit don’t carry. Many seem to like the option but don’t always feel the need to exercise it.

As for what the OP asked, he/she asked who carries a full-sized pistol. That lead to people explaining why they do or don’t and that lead us to this point. The OP hasn’t come back.

That’s great that you shot well. Once again, the point jr, John, and myself are making (as best as I can tell) isn’t that a person can’t shoot a smaller pistol well. It’s the differences in shooting smaller pistols versus larger pistols with the same shooter. If your point is you don’t consider that difference important, fair enough, but I feel like you’re making a counter-argument against an argument that isn’t being made (and that should be pretty clear by now).

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