How good a shot is "pretty good"?

[Hal]

All problems, are trigger, always!

Not necessarily....matter of fact, quite a large number of problems are all in the shooter's head.

Probably #1 problem I can think of for a miss or for larger groups (if you're into shooting groups) is a tendency for a shooter to take their focus off the front sight and look at the target to see where there shot went.
That's 100% not trigger related.

 

[JohnKSa]

...Ive been shooting about 300 rounds a week since the end of August and it bothers me that I can't seem to get good groups even when I follow the firing fundamentals...

Get a handful of dummy rounds and intersperse them randomly with the live rounds in your magazine (or cylinder if you're shooting a revolver) when you load up. You should know what is causing your groups to open up before you get through your first magazine.

 

[MrBorland]

All problems, are trigger, always!

Not necessarily....matter of fact, quite a large number of problems are all in the shooter's head.

Agreed. The mental game's a big part of it. Stay positive, focus on the process rather than the goal, and see what you need to see.

And while trigger and mental control is essential, so is sight alignment. Check out my vid below. No trigger or mental problems there, but there'd be no telling where the rounds would've gone had this been live fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmy5mkjpUNI

 

[MarkCO]

Sure, they would go right where the bore is pointed at.

I shot a 10 shot 6" group at 60 yards with a Glock that had NO sights on it at all!

 

[Hal]

I shot a 10 shot 6" group at 60 yards with a Glock that had NO sights on it at all!

I've heard of - but can't say I've seen nor can I duplicate the actions - instinct shooters that can hit tossed aspirins w/a BB gun that has the sights removed.
Supposedly that's part of how the guy that teaches instinct shooting introduces people to the technique.

Check out my vid below.

I'm quite impressed.
I've tried the "coin trick" any number of times & my grip isn't anywhere near steady enough to make it work.

 

[mrt949]

Buy a good quality 177 or 22 caliber air pistol and practice your trigger control and follow through .
Then shoot your real guns for groups .

 

[3.Shot.Group.]

"What is good shooting"? Is a pretty broad question. Are you shooting at paper targets, or are you shooting at real targets(people with guns who are trying to kill you)?

Paper targets give you all day to line up your shots and squeeze the trigger at the right moment. If you can place all of your shots in a tight group anywhere you're a pretty good shot. If you can place all of your shots in a tight group near the bull's eye, you're a pretty good shot with a pretty good gun.

Real targets, people with guns who are trying to kill you, only give an opportunity to shoot them when they're peeking out from behind cover to shoot you. If you can shoot them before they shoot you, you're a better shot than they are and/or you've got a better gun. The history of gunfights tends to be written by the survivors, and they're always billed as "good shots".

 

[WESHOOT2]

I ain't that good

I have for years suggested that any practice session begin and end with deliberate aimed fire at a minimum of 20 yds, at least 20 rds per.

A good shot in my parlance:
-one who survived
-one who will be eating meat

Know what I mean?

 

[RBid]

Real targets, people with guns who are trying to kill you, only give an opportunity to shoot them when they're peeking out from behind cover to shoot you.

Is this reality for private citizen DGUs?

The crazy thing about private citizen DGUs is that they seem to be successful far more often than they aren't, despite the fact that the majority of gun owners are bad shooters. This seems to hold up even when the defender has to pull the trigger. We almost never hear about examples of times where a defender had to use a firearm and lost. I don't doubt that they happen, but it seems that the incredibly short distances that most private citizen DGUs happen within crank up the hit rate, more than offsetting target fixation, poor fundamentals, etc.

This post isn't a statement of opinion. It's really just giving voice to the question of, "what does 'good enough' really look like?" I don't think we will ever have a compilation of data specific enough to know for certain. Based on generalities, it seems like draw --> 5 hits on a 6" target from 10 feet in 4 seconds might do it. That's beyond the average gun owner, and the average gun owner seems to be more than a match for the average criminal.

I suppose the best course of action is to be the best we can be at commonly used skills.

 

[FlyFish]

This question comes up periodically and I've posted a response similar to this before, but . . .

As others have pointed out, a good shooter in one discipline isn't necessarily always a good shooter in another, but certainly is more likely to be than someone who hasn't mastered the fundamentals in at least one type of shooting.

My own experience is with formal Bullseye competition. After about 30 years of competing in several different leagues, I think most Bullseye shooters would consider a "pretty good shot" to be someone who can keep most (close to all, really) of their shots in the black of a regulation NRA target (one-hand, unsupported, slow fire). That would be approximately a 3" circle at 50 ft, and the same MOA at other distances, which is how the NRA targets are drawn up. That's not championship shooting by any means, but it's certainly pretty good. Other types of shooting sports would have other definitions of "pretty good," which is as it should be.

 

[Brit]

Well, a couple of posters disagree with my statement that the trigger release is the main problem in shooting well.

That is why we have different opinions, yes?

An easy test, take a crappy, gritty, heavy trigger (on any pistol) and shoot for group at twenty five yards, one hand.

Same test, but with a perfect 3lb, crisp release, crude test, but you get the message?

Now have someone who has not mastered trigger control, pick your discipline, or the middle of a gun fight, when loosing is dying! Go head to head against a master in trigger control. Discount luck (which you can't really!) results are predicable.

That small piece of metal, and manipulation of same, is the everything of winning. The trigger. IMHO.

 

[saleen322]

FlyFish wrote: ...As others have pointed out, a good shooter in one discipline isn't necessarily always a good shooter in another, but certainly is more likely to be than someone who hasn't mastered the fundamentals in at least one type of shooting...

This is exactly right. I started shooting conventional pistol (Bullseye) on a semi-regular basis about 15 years ago. It made me better in everything else to the point I could win in the local PPC matches about all of the time. I was just an average or a little above average BE shooter but shooting against good shooters make you better. There was this one guy that I met who was always near or at the top of the league in scores every year. As we became friends, I asked him about it and he said, "Shoot some Free Pistol or Air Pistol matches." They were the HARDEST things I ever tried but it made me better. I went from a Sharpshooter average in BE to shooting Expert-Master scores. As my friend told me, you can't fake accuracy but some will try to cover their mistakes by showing how they can miss faster!

So pretty good is anyone who can shoot 80 percent or higher on a free pistol target. To give you an idea, hitting some part of a bottle cap one-handed at 50 feet will only guarantee an 8 out of 10 with the center being the size of a .22 bullet!

 

[Brit]

Free pistol in International completion is incredible to watch, the trigger pull is in the realm of portions of a lb.! Below.

Free Pistol

Free Pistol is one of the longest-established pistol competitions: it has been included in the Olympic programs from the very onset. This is the ultimate in precision shooting, demanding a high degree of technical skill and considerable powers of endurance. The Free Pistol match is shot on the International Precision target at a distance of 50 meters.
Pistols Used
•Any .22 caliber rim fire pistol can be used.
•Only open sights are permitted.
•No part of the gun may be extended or constructed to give support beyond the hand.
•The wrist must remain free when the pistol is held in the normal firing position.
•There is no minimum trigger weight and the dimensions of the grips, barrel length, the distance between the front and rear sights, and the weight of the pistol are without restriction.

Course of Fire
The program consists of 60 shots, with an unlimited number of sighter shots. The time limit, including the sighter shots, is two and one-half hours. Sighters may only be fired at the beginning of the competition. It is fired in six series of 10 shots for a possible score of 600 points.

Notice the distance? 50m, over 50 yards, this is an incredible skill level.
Not for the weak!

 

[FlyFish]

Free pistol in International completion is incredible to watch, the trigger pull is in the realm of portions of a lb.!

I was fortunate to know (slightly) the legendary Don Hamilton many years ago, and spent some time in his home looking over his many trophies and his target guns. The trigger pull on his free pistol was so light that, if the barrel of the gun were simply pointed vertically, the weight of the trigger itself was sufficient to release the sear! He was a truly amazing competitor and a fine gentleman.

http://hamilton2000.freeservers.com/dh.html

 

[3.Shot.Group.]

@Brit

Trigger isn't everything. If you change your hold your shots will be off just as much as they would if you jerked the trigger.

If trigger control was all there is to it, then there would be no terms such as "hold" or "grip" in pistol shooting.

Hold
Trigger Control
Sight Alignment

Each is as important as the other. Get those 3 right and I guess you'd be a pretty good shot.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If trigger control was all there is to it, then there would be no terms such as "hold" or "grip" in pistol shooting.

Hold
Trigger Control
Sight Alignment

Each is as important as the other. Get those 3 right and I guess you'd be a pretty good shot...

Not really. Trigger control is still the first principle of good shooting.

Grip is primarily important insofar as it affects trigger control. And sight alignment within decent limits will not displace a shot as much as a jerked trigger.

Also, from my experience helping teach hundreds of beginners, folks will pick up a reasonably satisfactory grip and reasonable sight alignment much more easily than trigger control. I've seen a lot of folks with a good grip and good sight alignment shooting poorly because of poor trigger control.

 

[.38Catt]

Somewhere between "okay" and "really good"

 

[SG29736]

Brit

Trigger isn't everything. If you change your hold your shots will be off just as much as they would if you jerked the trigger.

If trigger control was all there is to it, then there would be no terms such as "hold" or "grip" in pistol shooting.

Hold
Trigger Control
Sight Alignment

Each is as important as the other. Get those 3 right and I guess you'd be a pretty good shot.


Trigger control is the one that most of us have the bigger problem with. After you've learned a good grip, aligning the sights isn't too hard, but trigger control takes a lot more learning and practice.

Even though your body knows that the recoil from your 9mm or 45 is not enough to hurt, it still naturally wants to fight against it. At least that's what I have learned. This is the part that's difficult to overcome.

Mark

 

[Merad]

Went to the range this Saturday. With my Glock 26 and 20 rounds @ 10 yards I had all but 2 in the 9 ring and most of the group was center along the border of the 9/10 rings. The group size was maybe 5-6" (I didn't measure).

I can do better with my G19 or P226, but considering how often I (don't) get to practice, that's good enough for me at the moment.

 

[MarkCO]

Maybe you become "pretty good" when you get to the point that trigger control and sight alignment are not that hard, but understand that grip has a bigger affect on your speed and accuracy that most instructors realize, so you work on it.