How good a shot is "pretty good"?

I have one more thing to ad to what makes a good shot. No matter what your ability when practicing alone, it's what you can do under pressure that really counts. I've seen lots of really good shooters perform very poorly when the crowds watching and the clock's ticking. The ability to shoot with an adrenaline dump going on while still maintaining your fine motor skills will seperate those with similar ability in practice. Sort of the "buck fever" of competition.
 
That's an often ignored benefit of participating in competition. Competition adds stress. So does a class (having to perform in the presence of others).
 
I'd say the criteria is that you hit what you're aiming for.

I shot in bull's eye competition for a number of years, and was up to Sharpshooter level when I quit. I was shooting a .22 r.f. and a .38 Special revolver. The .38 Special was loaded with pipsqueak loads with just enough oomph! to get through the target paper. This standing, one hand hold, arm extended in classic style.

Then I tried the high powered stuff, heavy .44 and .45 loads out to, and beyond, one hundred yards. Shots on squirrels and rabbits, crows and groundhogs at many different ranges. Even tried empty cans tossed into the air.

When you feel confident that you can hit your target, then you're a good shot.

Bob Wright
 
A decent metric.....

In my view, to hit a 3"x5" card at 30ft with a sidearm(carry or duty gun) is a decent marksmanship standard.
This is what Richard NMI Marcinko, the retired US Navy SEAL who started SEAL Team 6(later called DEVGRU or Development Group) & Red Cell used as a training requirement for his "shooters & looters". ;)

Clyde
 
The standard I most often see around is 3" 3- or 5 shot groups from 25 yards. 'Good' is a subjective term, of course. Most shooters are very casual, recreational shooters, and they'll think 3" at 7 yards is great. 3" from 25 yards is a serious shooter metric, and is more indicative of commitment to skill development.

As far as self defense shooting goes... I found this to be an interesting read:

http://blog.hsoi.com/2013/03/30/fbi-pistol-qualification-course-an-evolution/
 
Here are a couple of things to consider when discussing shooting proficiency and how to measure a "pretty good shot".

Is the gun being used factory stock or modified?

Does the shooter only shoot one or two guns and are they all the same type (i.e. semi-auto, single action, double action, same caliber)?

I am lucky to have had the chance to shoot over 300 different hand guns during my lifetime. I currently have access to enough guns to be able to shoot a different one each week of the year (and I do).

All but 2 or 3 of my guns are factory stock. As far as accuracy goes, I have 12 or so YouTube videos (search YouTube for: BubbaBladesfla) of my shooting everything from .22s to the 460 magnum.

The guns in most of my videos are shot unsupported one or two handed at a target distance of 25 yards. The targets are 1/2" or 1" Shoot-n-see repair dots.

I use larger size targets and shoot at 7 yards in my rapid fire videos.

I hope that by posting a link to my videos I might inspire some shooters to practice more and try to become better shots.

Mark
 
A good shot is the guy who wins, or places near the top, when he competes. It's measurable. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. Opinions are worth what you pay for them. The bar should be set by proven performance in a disciplined shooting event. All the recognized "top shooters" today got to be recognized as top shooters by performing what is recognized as significantly better than others have done in the same event or activity. Performing tricks for yourself or setting your own standards just doesn't cut it in naming yourself a top shot or very good shooter.
 
Performing tricks for yourself or setting your own standards just doesn't cut it in naming yourself a top shot or very good shooter.
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I don't care anything about being named a top shot shooter. I only have to please myself, nobody else's opinion matters. Top shooters have to shoot a lot of paper. I think I'd quit shooting if I had to do much of it.
 
NoSecondBest said:
A good shot is the guy who wins, or places near the top, when he competes. It's measurable. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. Opinions are worth what you pay for them. The bar should be set by proven performance in a disciplined shooting event. All the recognized "top shooters" today got to be recognized as top shooters by performing what is recognized as significantly better than others have done in the same event or activity. Performing tricks for yourself or setting your own standards just doesn't cut it in naming yourself a top shot or very good shooter.
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No. Those are good competitors. A good hit is a good hit, and a good group is a good group, regardless of whether the feat takes place in competition or in private. It is possible to be 'a good shot' without being a good competitor. Dustin Ellerman was a good shooter before he won Top Shot, for example. His 100 yard golf ball hit was impressive on TV, but he did it even better in his audition tape.

To be clear, I'm not downplaying the benefits of competition. I'm only writing it off as necessary criteria for identifying a good shooter. I am definitely of the opinion that a bullseye in competition is more impressive than a bullseye in private, but that's more about stress management than trigger press or sight discipline.

A related question is: what good is it to be a good shot without the ability to do it under pressure?
 
Shooting is a skill, that can be improved, but when I taught (my own training Company) from 1980, till Dec. 2003. 500 Students, per year, mostly Security Officers. All from the holster.

Every now and again, a natural! The weapons were .38 Spl Revolvers. Some, most, students had never seen, or held a handgun. First comment "It is heavy"

After one hour, draw and fire, only double tap, some would become as one with the Revolver! One of my Students went on to being a Toronto Cop.
They made him slow down, so he could be more accurate, it did not work.

With his Glock 22, in .40 caliber, the Instructors let him free! He now is the top shot, and real quick.
 
I am referring to untimed slow fire. With any pistol, but what i shoot most is the Hi Power. It doesn't sound as though I'm a great shot then. I ran out of NRA targets a long time ago and usually just shoot cardboard or targets people threw away that are still good.

Part of the problem is that I have to be very focused on pulling the trigger correctly. If I don't I shoot to the left, always. The other part is I can't seem to stop the slight tremble that occurs from holding the weight of the gun. While it seems minor, it throws my groups off by inches. Do you guys have this problem or is it just me?
 
Elerius said:
...Part of the problem is that I have to be very focused on pulling the trigger correctly. If I don't I shoot to the left, always. The other part is I can't seem to stop the slight tremble that occurs from holding the weight of the gun. While it seems minor, it throws my groups off by inches. Do you guys have this problem or is it just me?
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  1. The first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."

  2. By keeping focus on the front sight and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking. But if you try to make the shot break at that one instant in time when everything seem steady and aligned, you usually wind up jerking the trigger.

  3. Of course the gun will wobble some on the target. Try not to worry about the wobble and don’t worry about trying to keep the sight aligned on a single point. Just let the front sight be somewhere in a small, imaginary box in the center of the target.

  4. Practice deliberately, making every shot count, to program good habits and muscle memory. Dry practice is very helpful. You just want to triple check that the gun is not loaded, and there should be no ammunition anywhere around. When engaging in dry practice, religiously follow Rule 2 - Never Let Your Muzzle Cover Anything You Are Not Willing To Destroy." As you dry fire, you want to reach the point where you can't see any movement of the sight as the sear releases and the hammer/striker falls.

  5. You'll want to be able to perform the fundamentals reflexively, on demand without conscious thought. You do that by practicing them slowly to develop smoothness. Then smooth becomes fast.

    • I'll warn you that I'm a big proponent of good professional training. Among other things, there is really no good substitute for a qualified instructor watching what you are doing and coaching you based on what he sees. Remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

    • Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something wrong, you will become an expert at doing it wrong. So some good training shows you what to practice and how to practice it. It thus helps you avoid bad habits which later on can be an awful hassle to try to correct.

  6. It may help to understand the way humans learn a physical skill.

    • In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:

      • unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;

      • conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something even though we know in our mind how to do it;

      • conscious competence, we know how to do something but can only do it right if we concentrate on doing it properly; and

      • unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively (as second nature) on demand without having to think about it.

    • To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. You need to start slow; one must walk before he can run. The key here is going slow so that you can perform each repetition properly and smoothly. Don't try to be fast. Try to be smooth. Now here's the kicker: slow is smooth and smooth is fast. You are trying to program your body to perform each of the components of the task properly and efficiently. As the programing takes, you get smoother; and as you get smoother you get more efficient and more sure, and therefore, faster.

    • I have in fact seen this over and over, both in the classes I've been in and with students that I've helped train. Start slow, consciously doing the physical act smoothly. You start to get smooth, and as you get smooth your pace will start to pick up. And about now, you will have reached the stage of conscious competence. You can do something properly and well as long as you think about it.

    • To go from conscious competence to the final stage, unconscious competence, is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back. You need to work at this to get good.

    • If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence as far as trigger control is concerned, he will be able to consistently execute a proper, controlled trigger press quickly and without conscious thought. Of course one needs to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.

  7. Front sight, press, surprise.
 
No. Those are good competitors. A good hit is a good hit, and a good group is a good group, regardless of whether the feat takes place in competition or in private. It is possible to be 'a good shot' without being a good competitor. Dustin Ellerman was a good shooter before he won Top Shot, for example. His 100 yard golf ball hit was impressive on TV, but he did it even better in his audition tape.

To be clear, I'm not downplaying the benefits of competition. I'm only writing it off as necessary criteria for identifying a good shooter. I am definitely of the opinion that a bullseye in competition is more impressive than a bullseye in private, but that's more about stress management than trigger press or sight discipline.

A related question is: what good is it to be a good shot without the ability to do it under pressure?
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To my point....another opinion without substantiation. Everyone is a good shot to some definition.
 
Shooting skill in perspective....

I think many new or entry level gun owners(handguns) put a unrealistic expectation of what accuracy or target marksmanship really is.

They might feel that if they can't hit a 2" circle at 25 yards they are somehow sub-standard. :(
In truth, in real world situations, you'll be aiming at a human torso. About 4/5 feet at a approx range of 0 to 30 feet.

The "skill" will come from your reaction to shooting under stress or with the related factors involved(low light, noise, injury/wounds, increased heart rate, tunnel vision, etc).
A new gun owner or license holder(CCW) can start with the basics then as the skill sets improve move to advanced training(tactics).

Clyde
 
NoSecondBest said:
To my point....another opinion without substantiation. Everyone is a good shot to some definition.
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There are problems with your statement that my post was an opinion without substantiation:

1. 'Good' is a subjective term, not a statement of fact. As such, it can not be proven scientifically, and substantiation is limited to support through anecdote and popular opinion or generally accepted truths.

2. In my post, I provided an example of a shooter (Dustin Ellerman) who is widely considered to be a good shooter, and who demonstrated through winning Top Shot that he was a good shooter prior to having competed.

In short: my post was substantiated as well as any reasonably short post about a subjective term could possibly be.

In contrast, your statement that good shooting can not be identified without competition appears to be an opinion without substantiation.
 
I tend to look at shooting a handgun as a martial art because I have a background in it. I also have a background in hunting. A handgun is a last resort for me in the hunting sense...and I rarely carry one because I hunt duck or turkey.

So a handgun is relegated to the task of defending me in public. I have a concealed carry license. I tend to lean to the martial arts side if the spectrum when it comes to my pistol skill. I want to be able to hit a target and end it. That means I practice a lot at the most frequent range (3-7 feet) and move out. At 5 yards or less I place 2 shots in less than 1.5 inside the center mass with only a few inch difference.

The reason is because that is what I am most likely to need. Anything at that range is done for self defense and I do with speed. I also incorporated a lot of stalling techniques when I did Brazilian jujitsu because it helped me train on how to stop someone while getting a gun.

So...blah blah blah. It all depends on what your purpose is. At 10 yards I'm not a superb shot. I would say average. But if I can aim at it...I can hit it. I can hit a human sized target at 50 yards and that is good enough for now. I will be always trying to get better, but I am not concerned with a 2" group in 1 second. I'm concerned about self defense.
 
ClydeFrog said:
I think many new or entry level gun owners(handguns) put a unrealistic expectation of what accuracy or target marksmanship really is.

They might feel that if they can't hit a 2" circle at 25 yards they are somehow sub-standard. :(
In truth, in real world situations, you'll be aiming at a human torso. About 4/5 feet at a approx range of 0 to 30 feet.

The "skill" will come from your reaction to shooting under stress or with the related factors involved(low light, noise, injury/wounds, increased heart rate, tunnel vision, etc).
A new gun owner or license holder(CCW) can start with the basics then as the skill sets improve move to advanced training(tactics).

Clyde
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Exactly. Couldn't agree more. Hence my work on drawing and hand to hand skills like grappling. I won't be losing a grapple match to some skinny teenager. If he tries to go fisticuffs I have plenty of outlets before trigger pull, but if I have to pull I will have enough space to do it.
 
Am I still considered new to this? I've only had a permit for 5 years, (although I studied and loved handguns before I was old enough for a permit) and maybe 4 of those years I've shot about 2-3k rounds due to ammo shortages, lack or ranges where I lived, and money.

But now I have none of those problems. Ive been shooting about 300 rounds a week since the end of August and it bothers me that I can't seem to get good groups even when I follow the firing fundamentals. It would seem that I'm naturally worse at shooting than most other people, I guess.
 
I'm not a trainer, but I do have an idea that might help.

Sometimes you can kind of plateau if you stick to just one gun.
Try buying a DA revolver, and shooting that for while.
It does wonders for trigger control.
I've found concentrating on the pull for DA has greatly improved my shooting across the board.


Other things that can help are shooting one handed, and shooting with your non dominant hand.

But mix it up. Try to do something different that will force you to abandon your routine. Muscle memory's fantastic once you've gotten your shooting where you want it. But, if you've ingrained some bad habits you need to step outside that box in order to actually improve.
 
elerius said:
But now I have none of those problems. Ive been shooting about 300 rounds a week since the end of August and it bothers me that I can't seem to get good groups even when I follow the firing fundamentals. It would seem that I'm naturally worse at shooting than most other people, I guess.
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Do you shoot by yourself? Have you ever taken a real class, or would you see that expenditure of several hundred dollars (a couple of weeks ammo) for real instruction as just wasted money?

Internet forums and youtube aren't going to help you get significantly better.

Perfect practice makes perfect. Bad practice (especially of several hundred rounds per week) just makes bad techniques permanent.
 
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