How good a shot is "pretty good"?

[Elerius]

I was wondering on people's opinions on what kind of groupings you'd say are average, and what is proficient.

I can group all inside a 6 inch circle at 10 yards, maybe most of them inside at 15 yards on my best day. Shooting 6 inch steel plates at 30 feet I can usually hit them all without missing. But I look at reviews of guns the targets shot freehand and they're always better then mine, by a good margin. However, I am a lot better than most of my coworkers by a good margin, who only shoot a few times a year when not qualifying. Watching Hickok45's videos shooting at the gong, he's deciding where to hold on it, where I'd be lucky to hit it at all at that distance.

I dont consider myself particularly skilled, but am I an average shot? Slightly or significantly above average? What kind of groupings do you guys normally get and consider to be above average?

 

[Kev]

what are you shooting with?

Anything I put on paper at 15 yards in the 1.5 to 2 inch group makes me happy..I'm happy very often

 

[NoSecondBest]

Proficient is 6" off hand at 50 yds. Exceptional is 4" at 50 yds. Two hand hold.

 

[stu925]

I'm happy if I can keep them all inside the 8 ring on a B-27 at 25yds with a defensive handgun. With my S&W 25-5 I expect 3" give or take at 25yds. My standards depend on what I'm shooting.

Stu

 

[MrBorland]

This question comes up frequently. There are many criteria for what constitutes "good shooting", but when someone poses the question, it's generally about group size without any time constraints. My standard answer is that, IMO, a good-to-very good shooter can shoot 3" groups at 25 yards. Those are honest and consistent* 5-shot unsupported groups with a reasonably accurate service sized handgun. DA/SA revolver shooters ought to be able to do this in double action.

This is far and away better than anything you'll likely see at your local range, but that bar is pretty low. Likewise, there are a lot of shooters who can do better than 3"@25, so "good" is relative to a pretty low low and a very high high.


*"honest" means everything counts; no fliers ignored. "Consistent" means this is what's typical, and not that once-in-a-lifetime group you'll tell your grandkids about.

 

[dahermit]

I view a "good shot", in the pragmatic sense. Group size is not all that important in my view. What I consider a "good shot" is someone who can hit a reasonable facsimile of the kill zone at combat distance with rapidity. For example, those falling plate and other simulated combat shooting events that are based on hits anywhere on the target (not groups), at speed. Those guys who are good at it wow me. Shooting a leisurely small group, off hand, strikes me as not being a practical simulation of defensive shooting and "ho hum" to boot.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I can group all inside a 6 inch circle at 10 yards, maybe most of them inside at 15 yards on my best day...

It depends. How many shots, how fast and under what conditions? In strings or two or three shots in 1.5 to 2 seconds drawing from a holster, that would be fine. But slow fire -- not so much.

...Shooting a leisurely small group, off hand, strikes me as not being a practical simulation of defensive shooting and "ho hum" to boot...

Perhaps a poor simulation of defensive shooting and boring as well, but that sort of practice is vital to developing genuine proficiency.

To shoot quickly and accurately under pressure, one needs a very solid grounding in the fundamentals, especially trigger control. One learns and maintains good trigger control shooting slow, accurate groups.

That shouldn't be all one does, but it needs to be a part of one's practice regimen.

 

[JohnKSa]

Here's an answer I've given on another forum.

Shooting from a two-handed unsupported standing position and using a centerfire handgun.

With no time constraints, shoot a five shot group at 25 yards keeping all hits in the 4" X-ring of an NRA-D1 target.*

Starting from low-ready, shoot a ten shot group at 25 yards keeping all hits in the 8" 10-ring of an NRA-D1 target within 30 seconds.

If you can manage that most of the time when you make the attempt, you're a pretty good shot. If you can do significantly better than that, either in terms of accuracy or speed, you are an exceptional shot.

* It's worth pointing out that not every centerfire pistol or centerfire pistol/ammo combination is capable of 4" accuracy at 25 yards. That said, most will do it if you can find ammunition they "like".​

 

[Sarge]

My personal yardstick is the B-2 at 25 yards; usually 5 shots offhand with good 1911's or target pistols and 2 hand unsupported with service pistols. Would you believe I miss the black sometimes?? But it makes me work my tail off trying and it sure brings me back to basics.

 

[Gbnk82]

At 50 yards i keep all my shots on paper with my 3.9 inch barrel 9mm..imho i believe that is good for someone who is not a competition type shooter none of those shots are tight groups but they group inside a human size target and for sd situations that is much farther than anything should ever have to fire at.now if i was shooting competitive i would not consider this good but like i said for a weekly non competition shooter i consider anything on paper at 50a yards with a handgun a decent shot.

 

[dahermit]

One learns and maintains good trigger control shooting slow, accurate groups.

And then one moves on.

That shouldn't be all one does, but it needs to be a part of one's practice regimen.

I respectfully disagree. I am under the impression that once a person (dancer, karate practitioner, etc.) learns the moves in slow motion, the practice from there on is at speed. There may be a halt to correct form, but always at speed.
However, I am not one of those competitors in Falling Plate or other speed event, and would like to hear from some of them. Speed shooting winners, do you ever purposefully go back to shooting small groups (as part of one's practice regimen), once you have achieved winning competency? I would really like clarification on this point.

 

[Hawg]

Shooting paper bores me to tears so I don't do much of it. If I can consistently hit a Coke can offhand at 25 yards I'm happy. I shot this group with my 51 navy offhand at 25 yards.

 

[NoSecondBest]

I respectfully disagree. I am under the impression that once a person (dancer, karate practitioner, etc.) learns the moves in slow motion, the practice from there on is at speed. There may be a halt to correct form, but always at speed.
However, I am not one of those competitors in Falling Plate or other speed event, and would like to hear from some of them. Speed shooting winners, do you ever purposefully go back to shooting small groups (as part of one's practice regimen), once you have achieved winning competency? I would really like clarification on this point.

I was at a very large shoot one time where one of the events was shooting falling plates under timed fired. It required speed and accuracy. One of the teams signed up told me "we're IPSC shooters so we should do real well in this event". They came in dead last out of over forty teams entered. Spray and pray at large targets isn't good shooting. My team shot these events for over ten years and always won or placed. Our main experience prior to shooting these three gun events was silhouette shooting. We trained for precise, accurate shooting and added speed. If you're just starting out with speed and don't know how to shoot well, you're very handicapped. If you're not a good, accurate shooter, changing mags fast and making noise won't win the day. The OP was about shooting groups. Somehow it morphed into how fast someone can shoot and combat shooting. That simply wasn't the question. From my experience, and that's a lot, very few IPSC or speed shooters are very accurate shooters. The small percentage that are at the top of the game are very, very accurate shooters and practice shooting accurately. They added the speed to the basic foundation they developed by building on the basic skills of marksmanship.

 

[MrBorland]

Speed shooting winners, do you ever purposefully go back to shooting small groups (as part of one's practice regimen), once you have achieved winning competency?

I can't speak for others, but I do. I'm a master level revolver shooter, knocking on the door of a bump to Distinguished Master, and I absolutely do practice shooting groups, among other accuracy-based drills.

I recall Brian Enos, the great practical shooter, commented on the title of his seminal book (Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals) that perhaps a better title could've been chosen, since "one never goes beyond the fundamentals, they just apply them better and faster".

Not all action pistol shooters practice shooting "groups", per se, but most will certainly include accuracy-based drills in their training.

IME, shooters who poo-poo group shooting as irrelevant, claiming they only need to be "combat accurate", generally would do well to raise their slow-fire accuracy bar and/or greatly speed up their "combat" accuracy.



Here are 5 rounds, 25 yards, unsupported, stock S&W 617 revolver, shot double action:

...and 3 rounds, 10 yards, unsupported (top) and rested (bottom). DAO S&W 686.

 

[bt380]

I bought a 22 pistol that had the best possible grip and finger positioning I could find.
Then I start out with the target may be 5 feet away and shoot thru the same hole until I ensure my finger pressures are settled in. Then I move the target out until I am comfortable w/ the results. I figure if I can't shoot a cheaper bullet that day, why spend more money on a louder bigger miss. I think the grip/finger training/refreshing really helps me out.
Then I move up a little on recoil (380) and repeat the same hole.
Then 9mm
Then 40cal
The same test can be for the days I practice rapid firing for recoil control except I'm obviously not going to use the same hole. It is a learned acceptance of a pattern at close range that is for me that if it is ok, I move the target out. If not, I quit and stop wasting ammo.
-
Beating a dead horse never gets the damn thing to gallop. Leave an read a gun magazine an have a cup of coffee. Makes for a good day either way.

 

[Frank Ettin]

One learns and maintains good trigger control shooting slow, accurate groups.

And then one moves on.

Except no one completely moves on because trigger control is a perishable skill. It is eroded by a lack of concentrated practice as well as by consistent quick shooting at near targets.

That shouldn't be all one does, but it needs to be a part of one's practice regimen.

I respectfully disagree. I am under the impression that once a person (dancer, karate practitioner, etc.) learns the moves in slow motion, the practice from there on is at speed. There may be a halt to correct form, but always at speed.
However, I am not one of those competitors in Falling Plate or other speed event,...

I'm not a Grand Master, but I did participate in USPSA competition for some years. I found that mixing some serious slow fire practice into my training helped improve my skills.

Also, including slow fire drills in one's regular practice has been a uniform recommendation of the various instructors I've had at schools such as Gunsite and elsewhere.

 

[chewie146]

Shoot silhouette with your .22 handguns if you want to get the long range accuracy without the "ho-hum" of bulls-eye. I think there is a place for both. I have done both fast-paced shooting with IPSC and IDPA and the slow steady squeeze of handgun hunting. They both have a place in handgun proficiency. It all depends on your goal, but if you want to be considered a "good shot," I'd say you need to be able to do both.

 

[dahermit]

Good points have been made. I will have to re-evaluate the pertinence of group-shooting relative to speed shooting. Thanks to those who responded.

 

[MrBorland]

...I can group all inside a 6 inch circle at 10 yards, maybe most of them inside at 15 yards on my best day...

It depends. How many shots, how fast and under what conditions? In strings or two or three shots in 1.5 to 2 seconds drawing from a holster, that would be fine. But slow fire -- not so much.

+1.

Rather than absolute group size dictating what's "good", one can go with a more general criteria: A "good shot" can hit what they see (assuming sights are correctly-adjusted). Sounds obvious, no? So, if all you see at 10 yards is a nebulous and featureless 6 inch circle, you're doing well to consistently hit it, though you'd also do well to get your vision corrected.

More than likely, though, your vision is ok, and you're able to see features within the circle at 10 yards, such as a small x-ring. If you can see the x-ring, and you're a good shooter, you can hit the x-ring. If you've got excellent vision (or optics) and can see the clear center of the "X", and you're a very good shooter, you can hit it.

Take the same circle to 50 yards, though, and it becomes much harder to see the same features, so you're left just seeing a 6" circle. But again, if you're a good shooter, you can hit it because you can see it. Official NRA targets are sized so their 10- and x-rings are visible at their prescribed distances, so good shooters can see and hit them.

 

[Deaf Smith]

How good a shot is "pretty good"?

Slowfire:

A 'pretty good' shot with a pistol, say a S&W 4 inch .38, with good SWC handloads, can put all their shots into one ragged hole at 10 yards.

Same shot can make head shots at 25 yards on a IDPA target with such a gun.

Same shot can, at speed with the same gun, can put all their shots into the head of a IDPA target at 10 yards, say with .33 splits (and that is kind of slow firing.)

And that same shot can shoot with either hand to.

Deaf