How do you choose your SD ammo?

It is also not unreasonable that if he had been using a hicap 9mm he still would have missed most of his shots.
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Sure, I think that's a given. But he hit 2 out of 6 with what he had. If he could have kept up that kind of a hit rate with a 14+1 pistol like the ones Grogan and Dove were carrying, he had a good chance of doing some damage to Platt before he even got out of the Monte Carlo.
More capacity does not make a better shot...
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Correct. I'm not saying that he would have been a better shot for having a different gun, but with his hit rate of 2 out of 6 (33.33%) if he could have kept that up for another 8 rounds (for a total of 14+1) he would have made a total of 5 hits. If 2 hits were enough to neutralize Matix, then 3 more hits could have neutralized Platt.

Again, there's no way to know for sure what would have happened, but given the circumstances, it's at least a plausible theory.
 
So, if Dove had been shooting a 158 grain .357 Magnum Platt might have been incapacitated with that shot. I wonder if a .40 S&W would have made a difference. For that matter I wonder if a 124 Grain Gold Dot would have made a difference.

I'm not qualified to offer an educated opinion on the Miami Shootout but I think there were other mistakes the FBI made that day. They knew they were hunting well armed criminals who were very willing to fight. I wouldn't have gone after them with handguns unless there was no other option. I might even have Bonnie and Clyded them.
 
Moonglum said:
So, if Dove had been shooting a 158 grain .357 Magnum Platt might have been incapacitated with that shot. I wonder if a .40 S&W would have made a difference. For that matter I wonder if a 124 Grain Gold Dot would have made a difference.

I'm not qualified to offer an educated opinion on the Miami Shootout but I think there were other mistakes the FBI made that day. They knew they were hunting well armed criminals who were very willing to fight. I wouldn't have gone after them with handguns unless there was no other option. I might even have Bonnie and Clyded them.
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And again, the agents in the other car were very well armed with shotguns, MP5s, and M16s.


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So, if Dove had been shooting a 158 grain .357 Magnum Platt might have been incapacitated with that shot. I wonder if a .40 S&W would have made a difference. For that matter I wonder if a 124 Grain Gold Dot would have made a difference.
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If frogs had wings...

The tactical errors were so egregious there was not much that would have helped.

The first responding units held back as they thought is was a gang war. The FBI was so worried about getting all the glory they did not communicate with the local police. The heavily armed team was at another bank schmoozing with the tellers. They heavy guns in the cars at the scene were in the trunks of the cars, they did not even have body armor on when it started.
 
While it's been several years since I last met or spoke to Gary Roberts, I believe he still has his dental surgery practice in the south SF Bay Area and is connected to Standford Health (Clinical Assistant Professor, Surgery - Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery Clinical Assistant Professor (By courtesy), Otolaryngology - Head & Neck Surgery Divisions).

He studied with Marty Fackler (whom I never met) during the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory days and became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association (IWBA). One of his bio statements you can find online lists that he served as a U.S. Navy Reserve officer from 1986 to 2008, and he served on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC munitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. At some point he stopped working with Marty Fackler, but that was his business and I didn't ask him about it.

I don't know where (if?) he's currently conducting his ballistic testing, since he was apparently unable to continue using the SCPD range for his private ballistic testing when the range master retired from that agency some years ago. He was working with SJPD for a while (at least for a project), but last I heard he was no longer affiliated with them or using their range. I heard he was subsequently looking for a new LE range he could use, but I don't know if he found one.

He has strong opinions on service ammunition testing, but those opinions may not be universally shared among all LE. Pretty unsurprising and normal for such a diverse field as LE. He's still active on at least one gun enthusiast's website, last I saw.
 
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I generally look for FBI standards, look up all the ballistic gel tests I can find, and pick a list of 3-4 for each caliber that look best to me. Hopefully all 3-4 will be reliable in the guns I buy them for so I can choose based upon availability and sales unless one proves to be a favorite for other reasons (maybe it is noticeably more accurate in my guns than the other options, maybe one is US made and another isn't, maybe I like one over another for reasons I can't articulate).

Edit: serves me right for reading the 1st page and some of the 2nd page and not all 4 pages before answering. I answered the original question, but by the time I answered, the thread had evolved into something quite different.
 
"The FBI was so worried about getting all the glory they did not communicate with the local police."

This still happens all too often across the USA with a plethora of Federal, State and local Agencies. Too many egos and individuals on power trips bucking for a promotion and or pushing an Agenda... not nearly enough communication and collaboration between agency's.
Nobody learned much of anything from Custer and his last stand at the little Big Horn. :rolleyes:
 
I've picked up different HP ammo when I have seen it cheap. I test it. If it opens up reliably in water jugs and is reliable and accurate in a gun I'm ok with using it for SD even Winchester white box hp. If it's not good at expanding, it's for practice like Geco HP. I don't obsess about bullet jacket separation or FBI maximum penetration as long as the bullet expands and is of sufficient weight/speed for the caliber. I don't like 147gr 9mm for example. Too slow for caliber. Shot placement and reliability is more important than any other factor. I want ammo I can buy cheap enough to run some through my guns before I rely on it for SD.

Paul Harrell does a good job discussing the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90PQWzx0_MA
 
Reliability. It must go bang each and everytime you press the trigger.

Ergonomics. You must be comfortable and confidence in using it.

Accuracy. You must be accurate. You don't need Olympic "x" ring accuracy but minute of target.
 
An example from the other side of the coin would be Michael Platt from the 1986 Miami shootout. He continued to fight despite a bullet in his lung very early in the fight and went on to kill two FBI agents. An autopsy showed 1.3 liters of blood in his chest cavity. He was shot a total of 12 times, with the final shot penetrating his chest and bruising his spinal cord.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Certain instructors will talk about the difference between what they call “timers and switches”. That is a shot that will cause eventual incapacitation (typically desanguination) and those that cause immediate incapacitation (typically an interruption of the central nervous system). The former will end the fight eventually, but in that time the assailant can continue to fight and inflict damage.

As in John’s example when it comes to the human body there are few guarantees. Thankfully the officer got the medical treatment she needed and survived. 101 units of blood is amazing.


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I would use ball if that's what I have, as it is, I use 125 XTP in the 38, 115 Win HP in the 9MM. Carried 230 ball in the army. The main thing is to hit what you are shooting at, bullet placement is most important. One of our local cops hit a guy with 4 185 HPs at near point blank range, didn't kill him, didn't even knock him down, he walked across the street and fell in the gutter. Still alive today I guess.
 
Define "best"
Everything involve tradeoffs.Monday might require a 15yd hostage shot. Tuesday might be a arms length mag dump. Wed might be a charging vehicle through the windshield shot. Thurs might be a 4 target melee.

One day's advantage might be another day's liability.

Does my gun run reliably on it? Does it score "pretty good" for expansion,penetration and accuracy?

Is it on the shelf available? How many folks get to actually choose between three different offerings of decent SD ammo?
"two whole boxes of 9mm I can buy?"
Does it matter if its Gold Dot,Hydra Shok,or Fiocchi? (At this point)

Just keep pulling the trigger. Be grateful for what you have.
 
As always a contentious topic. There is more to SD ammo selection than comparative gel test reports.

I have seen squib loads and other defects in factory ammo, so in my opinion buying SD ammo from a mainstream reputable manufacturer is key. I do not agonize over penetration tests etc. Any decent well made hollow point from a mainstream manufacturer is ok.

When I restock my carry ammo I normally buy a minimum quantity for initial test (25 if possible), then if they ok I buy another 100 rounds. I keep enough for 3 mags plus 1 or 2 and shoot the rest. So I shoot out around 70 rounds out of the 125 I bought (expensive).

If there is any type of malfunction I will not use them. But I also look at other stuff: how much flash is there? Can I shoot it at night or will it blind me completely? Muzzle blast? For example, load a 357 SIG with 124gr XTP for around 1400+ fps with a slow powder, muzzle flash and blast is extreme, I would not like to shoot that indoors or from a vehicle. But use a fast powder and load it to say 1200fps and you have a very tame round with hugely reduced muzzle flash and blast - very controllable, and you able to put multiple shots on target much easier.

Did not mean to digress, sorry, but the point is when you buy factory SD ammo you really need to test it thoroughly and see if you and your gun like it. That is 1000% more important than 12.6 versus 14.8 inches of penetration...

I also remove my barrel, and drop each round into it to make sure it fits. I once had factory ammo that would not chamber, the bullet was oversize slightly.
 
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