How do you choose your SD ammo?

I am not convinced that there is a lot of real life difference between brands and styles. I load my own SD ammo, for the most part. I use a good quality JHP bullet, tend to like fast, and am careful with my proceedures.
 
Mannlicher said:
I am not convinced that there is a lot of real life difference between brands and styles. I load my own SD ammo, for the most part. I use a good quality JHP bullet, tend to like fast, and am careful with my proceedures.
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If all bullets of a caliber are created equal performance wise, then you should choose the cheapest FMJ ammo or equivalent components for reloading.
 
I bought a few boxes of common hollow points and and shot them out of my EDC. The ones that I shot the best became my ammo I carry, I also reload ammo to as close to the same spec for practice but for self defense it’s factory ammo only.
 
Over half a century of hunting
Four decades in law enforcement

Result:
Practice
Placement
Penetration

The above trumps caliber
The above trumps projectile
The above trumps expansion
The above trumps jello “tests”

(assuming we’re talking common service calibers)
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That is the primary goal when carrying a gun. After that you can start to delve into what works 100% in you carry gun. Me personally I carry what has street cred and sometimes what I used to carry on duty, depending on the platform. I only carry full size pistols or magnum revolvers.
 
If all bullets of a caliber are created equal performance wise, then you should choose the cheapest FMJ ammo or equivalent components for reloading.
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But they are not. Bullet construction is critical to performance. Different bullets from different makers are constructed differently.
 
I am not convinced that there is a lot of real life difference between brands and styles. I load my own SD ammo, for the most part. I use a good quality JHP bullet, tend to like fast, and am careful with my proceedures.
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One example:

110 and 125 grain JHP's in 38 caliber;

Remington uses a thin scalloped jacket
Winchester and Federal use a thicker, shorter jacket.

This difference in bullet construction makes a huge difference in bullet performance, especially at magnum velocities.
 
As long as it’s been proven reliable I am generally ok with any half decent, mainstream hollow point loading. I prefer HST and Gold Dot but Ranger, PDX, Hydrashok, Golden Sabre, heck even WIN White Box JHP is fine. I am of the opinion that there is no single wunderbullet. Better tech absolutely? Perfect results nope. Hell 9BPLE is like 100 years old and has a ferocious real world rep. It’s hard on guns but it’ll work.

Now personally I prefer medium to heavy weight projectiles.
124-147 in 9mm (124 if I have my drothers)
165-180 in .40 (I lean 180 and that 155 Federal BP stuff works but is HOTTTT)
185-230 in .45 (I prefer 230 grain tried and true)

As far as +P or no generally I only seek out +P in 9mm, as old habits die hard. Yes tech has caught up but in my mind I still want that 9mm moving.

At the end of the day right this second. HST and Gold Dot scratch my itch as they meet my needs and have the real world rep to boot.

ABSOLUTELY NO RIP/DEATHSTOMPER/SHREDDER/DIEMFR etc. type ammo. It may or may not work but nope, nope, nope.
 
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TBM900 said:
Where did I say a word about either?
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I must have read this as including barriers: :o

TBM900 said:
"In the real world... 12” isn’t enough
After poorly placed shots, the most common “failure“ I’ve noted over the decades...
Poor penetration

Christopher Wallace

All four shots pierced the vehicle door (penetration)
Three hit non-vital areas (placement)
But one of the four FMJs struck him in the hip
It traveled diagonally from right hip to left shoulder, his entire torso
Doubtful an expanding projectile would have pierced the door and made it through his heart and lung
I’ve personally run into multiple similar examples over the decades"
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Anyway, so 16" in heavy clothed gel - here ya go ...
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx

357 Sig 125 Gold Dot - 18.3'' / .53 :)
 
Which “science” is that?
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Well, lets see.. if I remember correctly, I believe that 8th-9th grade textbooks back in the 1970s called it "mechanics" which was a subcategory of physical science.

When I said that I believe in the science of ballistics, I am simply saying that I accept that the weight, style, type, design and powder charge do make a difference. At the same time, I am not all hung up on those characteristics to the degree that many other people seem to be. I just want something to be a JHP so that at least, it has some manner of opportunity to avoid over penetrating. I manly want something in the (jhp) class to be as weighty as possible and run reliably in my gun. I spend more time on the cereal isle than I do trying to figure out what ammo I want for my carry gun. It just aint that deep to me.
 
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I don't know that any of us know what's gonna happen when we shoot someone if we ever do until after it is all over. That leave's everything a guess for most of us, me included. Soldier shooting is second hundred enemy soldier's probably hasn't really a cue what his bullet is going to do when it hit's the enemy! He does know a solid hit will stop and or slow the guy and a good chest hit is likely gonna knock him down, nothing more. take two bullet's loaded exactly the same and shoot them into say a dead pig. Both placed pretty close to the same and on entering the body they both may well take different paths but still incapacitate the pig! For myself I believe the best way to pick a bullet is to choose one at a moderate velocity with average or heavier weight The idea is to get the bullet inside and hopefully not completely penetrate and get a bystander near by! Starting at a slower velocity is fine because the actually range fired in a real self defense situation just isn't gonna be that far. To much velocity and one of two things will happen the bullet may blow up not causing needed damage inside or it may completely penetrate causing danger for nearby bystander's. Not enough velocity and could be the bullet won't get inside and do what it needs to do but I'm pretty sure even if it doesn't drop the bad guy, it will make him stop and reflect on his situation.

I carry a 9mm with 124gr JHP's, handloads. I suspect that the bullet I should go to is the 147gr. Heavier bullet at sufficient velocity to penetrate deep enough to complete the job but hopefully not enough velocity to exit. I suspect that pretty much fit's with my 124gr but sometime's I'm just not sure and never will be until the time come's to put it to actual use. Gelatin or even gallon jugs of water will tell you how much penetration you can expect within a certain medium but can't tell you what happens if the bullet hits a bone. I shot a deer years ago with my 25-06 and a 117gr handload. Bullet went in behind the shoulder, clipped a rib bone and that turned the bullet and I found it up in the neck. That bullet had a measured muzzle velocity of 3079fps. You simply don't know till after the fact what the bullet is going to do inside the target. But what I'm pretty sure of it that a bullet that expends itself to quickly may make a mess on the surface and damage nothing important That would be the world of much to fast a bullet. I'd avoid it! Heavy bullet brings down velocity but may still bounce around inside the target. As long as it doesn't penetrate out the other side and endanger some bystander, that's fine Bounce around inside the target all it want's and greater chance of stopping the target right there. Those thing's we won't know to happen till we have to deploy that bullet! So in my mind it's use your best guess to keep a bullet inside and still penetrate enough to finish the job!

Accuracy at SD range seem's to me not worth worrying about. I do not shoot my auto loader carry gun's all that well using the sight's. So I switched to learning point and shoot and have gotten good enough at it that a watermelon at 10yds or less is in grave danger of being hit every time and quickly at that! If you are firing at much more than 10yds, likely self defense has little to do with it! Sometime compare a watermelon the a human chest!

This of course is all opinion. None of us know what will happen to the target as a result of the bullet hitting until it does and then some doctor examining the wound tells us! In fact until the moment arrives, none of us actually know what we are likely to do in the first place! Other than getting to much penetration I think the least of your worry's is the bullet your using. Even a fast light bullet hitting a person in the leg is gonna give 90% of them reason to pause and give you another shot. But at the same time I'd prefer if I ever have to shoot someone that they fall down on the ground dead with the first shot.
 
I do NOT trust FeeBee to make truthful recommendations (e.g. the 9mm Punibellum is the "right" caliber for Police). My carry ammo is based on a consensus from what PDs and SOs carry.
 
Very few PDs have the resources to do the same level of research on ammo as the FBI does and so, from what I can see, the majority of them tend to follow the FBI's recommendations.

Without knowing exactly what you mean by 'SO', if it relates to the military, it would seem that most of them are carrying 9mm and probably FMJ.

That said, you mentioned a "consensus" which implies a "general agreement". If you have input from a number of sources in PD and among 'SO's all of which tends to agree, I think most people here would find that very interesting.
 
When possible, I prefer to use the same loads I used when I had a badge, meaning the stuff we either issued for duty at various times and/or approved for off-duty (especially if in a non-duty caliber).

That basically means I like to stay with 5 of the big names in American ammo makers. (Winchester, Federal, Speer, Remington & Hornady, in no particular "order".)

Having been familiar with the LE and industry ammo testing protocols and wound ballistics discussions going back to the late 80's, and having seen what's developed since then, I'm a lot less fussy about ammo choices than I once was as a younger shooter and cop (and younger LE firearms instructor).

Something made by one of the big names in ammo makers who design and provide defensive ammunition (whether for LE or private owners), whether non-bonded or bonded.
 
Very few PDs have the resources to do the same level of research on ammo as the FBI does and so, from what I can see, the majority of them tend to follow the FBI's recommendations.

No, most do not. Few force their Patrol officers to carry the Punibellum round. A few do force them and more allow it as a secondary round as women and girly-men have training issues learning to effectively shoot a round made for American adults.

FeeBee picks what they want, then writes the specs to fit that choice. Pass.
 
...more allow it as a secondary round as women and girly-men have training issues learning to effectively shoot a round made for American adults.
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Pre-insulting everyone who might disagree with you isn't really a polite debate technique, nor is it necessary if one can produce facts or logic to support their argument.
No, most do not. Few force their Patrol officers to carry the Punibellum round.
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I didn't really get into whether or not police forces mandated that their officers carry only the issue round or how many do--that's a separate issue.

The original assertion was that choosing ammunition by PD consensus would net a different result from the FBI's recommendations. The fact is that U.S. PDs are heavily swayed by the FBI's recommendations. A consensus of U.S. PDs on ammunition/caliber is going to be very similar to what the FBI recommends.

Back in 2007, back when the .40S&W's heyday was still in full swing, the 9mm held 2nd place in LE according to a survey done by Winchester. (September/October 2007 American Handgunner COPTALK column by Massad Ayoob Winchester’s LE Seminar)

The .40S&W was in clear first place at the time--due to the FBI's use of it, of course. When the FBI went to 9mm, we all saw the used .40S&W LE guns flood the market.

Joel Harris, SIG Sauer's director of media relations and communication assesses that 9mm is now the most common caliber in LE. He cites the FBI's change to the 9mm as the reason.
https://www.policemag.com/502150/9m...ay that at,enforcement purposes," Harris says.

Another source indicating that 9mm is top of the charts for U.S. law enforcement. And that cites the FBI's change to it as the reason.
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/which-firearms-and-ammo-do-police-use/

The point is that if a person wants' to avoid the FBI's recommendations, choosing a caliber based on the "consensus" of U.S. police departments is not the way to do it. U.S police departments are heavily affected by the FBI's recommendations.
FeeBee picks what they want, then writes the specs to fit that choice.
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The FBI created their ammunition specifications and testing regimen back in the late 1980s in response to the Miami shooting. They have used that same testing and specifications ever since. They first used them to select 10mm ammunition, then later .40S&W. Then, much later, when ammunition makers began producing 9mm that would meet the spec, selecting 9mm. All using the same testing and threshold specifications.

Here's an article from 1989 that describes the FBI protocol and for ammunition testing and the threshold of acceptability. It's simple to verify that it is still the same.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/122334NCJRS.pdf

The idea that they're changing their specifications to match whatever ammunition they want to buy doesn't really match with the facts.
 
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