How do you choose your SD ammo?

[Moonglum]

No, most do not. Few force their Patrol officers to carry the Punibellum round. A few do force them and more allow it as a secondary round as women and girly-men have training issues learning to effectively shoot a round made for American adults.

First, I'd like to point out that the list I linked to includes ammunition in .40S&W as well as .45 ACP in case you have issues with the adequacy of 9mm.

Dr.s Sydney Vail, Martin Fackler and Gary Roberts all agree that there's not real difference in the performance characteristics of the 3 main service calibers. In the notes included at the link Dr. Roberts recommends picking the gun that works for you then getting it in your preferred caliber.

Even Paul Harrel APBUH says pick the caliber that works for you and roll.

As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense.


Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

Unless your department picks your caliber for you, pick the platform you shoot best, then decide on caliber from there. Basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition; the platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. Currently the best duty pistols going right out of the box are probably the Glocks, S&W M&P's, as well as HK.

 

[Nanuk]

I'm responding because I read through the entire thread and didn't see a single reference to Dr. Gary Roberts who is literally the guy who tells the FBI what to buy.

Dr.s Sydney Vail,

Is a pathologist. Considering that almost 90% of GSW's the person survives I would say his sample was statistically very small.

Martin Fackler

Respectfully died in 2015. His data is aged. His field was more military rounds and applications. it is also where your next guest Dentist Gary Roberts got his start by fetching gel blocks for the tests.

Gary Roberts

Is a Dentist by trade. Ballistics is a hobby, not an area of occupational experience.

all agree that there's not real difference in the performance characteristics of the 3 main service calibers. In the notes included at the link Dr. Roberts recommends picking the gun that works for you then getting it in your preferred caliber.

That shows your lack of knowledge about the subject matter. Were you aware that specific bullet construction is just as critical as caliber, velocity, etc?

You are correct that there are not huge differences, but minor advantages can be the difference between a stop and a failure.

With all this ballistic magic there is still not a round that beats the old school Remington 125 grain SJHP in 357 magnum.

If the IWBA was all that, where is it today?

 

[Moonglum]

Please.....

If the IWBA was all that, where is it today?

International Waterfowl Breeder's Association ?

Illinois Women's Bowling Association?

 

[Nanuk]

International Waterfowl Breeder's Association ?

Illinois Women's Bowling Association?

Again, if you do not know it tells me all I need to know.

 

[Moonglum]

Again, if you do not know it tells me all I need to know.

Injured Worker's Bar Association?
Incel White Boys Association?

Seriously, it seems that the International Wound Ballistics Association ceased to exist before I became interested in guns and concealed carry. That doesn't mean that I can't know who Dr. Fackler was (Although I didn't know he was dead). It also doesn't mean that Dr. Roberts isn't very well respected in the firearms training community now.

People that I do respect and who I have had a chance to interact with and who I am certain know what they're talking about agree that Dr. Roberts is an SME and does know his stuff. In fact a former staff member (Pax) here is who told me about him.

Why don't you follow the link I provided and read the list and tell me which of his ammunition suggestions is crap?

 

[Nanuk]

Moon, In the end it is the shooter not the ammo that is going to solve the problem. People are looking for a hardware solution to a software problem. Most people cannot consistently hit so buying the latest greatest ammo is worthless.

I have been a student of ballistics for close to 50 years, and have been carrying professionally for almost 40 years. I have seen results on the street. Bullets today are performing (stopping bad guys) no better than they were 30 years ago. Maybe some do better under certain specific criteria, but that is it.

I was on the job before the famous Miami FBI shoot out and studied it with great interest. The fact that The FBI had to blame the bullet and not their own personnel speaks volumes. The bullet did not fail, it did EXACTLY what it was meant to do. The fact that only one hit, out of an entire magazine from bad breath distance was the problem.

People expect magic bullets, there is no such thing.

 

[TunnelRat]

Moon, In the end it is the shooter not the ammo that is going to solve the problem. People are looking for a hardware solution to a software problem. Most people cannot consistently hit so buying the latest greatest ammo is worthless.

I have been a student of ballistics for close to 50 years, and have been carrying professionally for almost 40 years. I have seen results on the street. Bullets today are performing (stopping bad guys) no better than they were 30 years ago. Maybe some do better under certain specific criteria, but that is it.

I was on the job before the famous Miami FBI shoot out and studied it with great interest. The fact that The FBI had to blame the bullet and not their own personnel speaks volumes. The bullet did not fail, it did EXACTLY what it was meant to do. The fact that only one hit, out of an entire magazine from bad breath distance was the problem.

People expect magic bullets, there is no such thing.

Training and bullet technology don’t have to mutually exclusive.

In reviewing the Miami Shootout there are certainly instances where training and tactics appear to have been deficient. The FBI deciding they needed a new cartridge as the solution may well be a case of looking for a “magic bullet”. But just because that was the FBI’s failing doesn’t mean everyone looking at bullet technology is falling into the same trap.

Re-evaluating the hardware in use is a fairly common practice in many industries. In the firearm industry it’s in part how we’ve seen a number of advances from cartridge design overall to the prevalence of semiautomatic weapons to the adoption of various optics (electronic and otherwise) and their reticles.

To me the real question is are the hardware differences such that upgrading is “worth it” and will actually yield significant improvement. In the case of say the Winchester Silvertip versus more modern designs such as the Gold Dot or HST the penetration and expansion of the newer bullets in calibrated ballistics gelatin appears better. How does that manifest in real world shootings? That doesn’t seem easy to gauge, in part as a function of data collection after the fact and also the sheer number of factors involved in a defensive shooting.

I do find it interesting that in the MHS trials for the Army ammunition was part of the selection process, including a hollowpoint. Now there is a potential claim that the Army is simply going with the crowd and I don’t want to be guilty of an appeal to authority. It does seem some people are convinced that bullet technology has changed enough to warrant some new adoptions, at least in terms of FMJ versus hollowpoint. How well this decision has been verified I don’t know.

In my own limited experience I do believe more training yields greater gains than simply buying new bullets. At the same time I don’t want development of the hardware to stop. I will continue training and when it comes to hardware I will do my best to examine the results of new products.


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[Moonglum]

The question that was asked was How do you choose your self-defense ammunition?

I was involved in a shooting several years ago and it changed my perspective on a lot of things. I started taking things very seriously when it came to what I carried and how I carried it and the training that I got.

At some point I decided I was only going to buy 1 type of self defense ammunition for myself and my wife but I had no FRIGGIN clue out of all the options available what kind of self-defense ammunition I should use.

I had been carrying Hornady Critical Duty or Critical Defense (I don't remember which) because the guy that owned the gun shop that I bought all my guns at handed me a box of it and said this is the best stuff there is use it.

He also had given me a box of APX(?) ammunition and said it was the best self defense ammunition on THE PLANET for my wife to use. If I remember correctly it was made out of copper dust and looked like a Phillips screwdriver on a shell casing. I looked it up on line and apparently it's horrible ammunition. I don't even think they make it anymore.

So, to make a long story short I decided to ask somebody who I knew was a nationally recognized, well respected, SME, Kathy Jackson (AKA Pax AKA Cornered Cat). She sent me the same link I posted above and told me "Anything on this list will work just fine." She also told me that she personally happened to use Speer Gold Dots, which are also on "The List". So, that's what I picked.

I had never heard of Dr. Gary Roberts (who is actually a Dentist BTW) before I followed that link but I decided to do some research on him

One of the first things that I found out is that a lot of people who are recognized as leading trainers and experts in the shooting industry have very high respect for him. At lot of these recognized experts in their field seem to think that he is The expert in his. I also looked at the guys credentials and he's got a pretty impressive resume and has been studying in this field for I think 20 or 30 years.

He helped the FBI set their parameters for what is acceptable performance for their duty ammunition. Then he "published" a list of ammunition that meets that criteria and, again, a whole bunch of people who are recognized to be experts in the shooting community swear by it.

In contrast I have three retired cops (one guy on Defensive Carry Forum) who I've never heard of who say he doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.

I know who I'm going to listen to.

You do you.

 

[JohnKSa]

The fact that only one hit, out of an entire magazine from bad breath distance was the problem.

The Winchester STHP that hit Platt and the FBI decided carried most of the blame for the debacle was ballistically matched to Jerry Dove's gun.

According to Dr. W. French Anderson's analysis it was fired from a distance of "approximately 30 feet".

That said, I agree that blaming one shot out of all that were fired and out of all that went on was not reasonable. There were many issues that contributed to the outcome, and that single bullet was only a very tiny part of it.

 

[Moonglum]

And let's not forget that it was later determined that single bullet would have killed Platt anyway it just didn't incapacitate him fast enough.

 

[Nanuk]

The Winchester STHP that hit Platt and the FBI decided carried most of the blame for the debacle was ballistically matched to Jerry Dove's gun.

According to Dr. W. French Anderson's analysis it was fired from a distance of "approximately 30 feet".

I was under the impression ( it has been a while since I looked at the data) That it was the Agent that was leaning over the hood. I guess he missed them all then.

 

[Nanuk]

And let's not forget that it was later determined that single bullet would have killed Platt anyway it just didn't incapacitate him fast enough.

And that is why I have NEVER been a 9mm fan.

 

[TunnelRat]

And that is why I have NEVER been a 9mm fan.

The assumption there is that if it had been another round that Platt would have died. In terms of handguns at the scene in the hands of the agents there were 357 magnum revolvers, but as best as I can find in terms of information those revolvers were loaded with 38 special +P. Would that have performed dramatically differently than 9mm? I’m not sure. Now maybe if the agents had been using 357 magnums it would have been different. However, if Dove had been shooting 357 magnum maybe he wouldn’t have had the exact same shot placement. I think there are too many variables to make a definitive conclusion.

Mireles had a shotgun and the other 6 agents that didn’t arrive in time had MP5s, M16s, and shotguns. To me any of those are far better than just a different handgun cartridge in a different handgun (I know an MP5 fires a handgun cartridge, but again more points of contact generally make long guns easier to shoot). The agents that were killed by Platt were killed by his Ruger Mini-14 even though he did fire two 357 magnum revolvers. Again, long guns over handguns.

I’m pulling my info from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

I don’t want to get into another caliber/cartridge war. When it comes to handgun cartridges my opinion is they generally all suck without good shot placement. Below are two examples of multiple rounds of non-9mm (45 ACP and 40 SW) failing to stop a fight until shots to the head were delivered.

https://www.police1.com/officer-sho...5-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/

https://www.policemag.com/340305/shots-fired-jacksonville-florida-01-26-2008


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[Moonglum]

Here is a good analysis

https://youtu.be/iv8cByaVyNQ

I guess you can't direct link videos here but it's Paul Harrell and it's about 35 minutes long

 

[JohnKSa]

I was under the impression ( it has been a while since I looked at the data) That it was the Agent that was leaning over the hood. I guess he missed them all then.

Gordon McNeill was shooting a revolver. He had an excellent position early in the gunfight--7-8 feet from the passenger compartment of the Monte Carlo. He fired four shots that missed, then Platt shot him in the hand, causing a pretty severe injury. McNeill fired two more shots which Anderson believe hit Matix in the head and in the neck going into chest. It seems likely that these two wounds were the reason, or at least a significant part of the reason that Matix never really played a part in the rest of the gunfight.

After the 6th shot, McNeill tried to reload but the injury to his hand prevented him, or at least drew the procedure out too long. Platt exited the Monte Carlo and shot him in the neck while he was trying to reload. McNeill survived, but was paralyzed for several hours.

I've often wondered how things would have played out if McNeill had been armed with a high-capacity 9mm and hadn't had to stop shooting after just 6 rounds. He had an excellent position and was able to neutralize Matix with his first 6 rounds. Had he been able to keep shooting, I think there's a good chance he could have ended the gunfight by incapacitating Platt with the remaining rounds in his gun. And there's also a chance that he might have been able to reload had he run dry. One report indicates that material from his wound (blood/bone fragments/etc.) prevented him from closing the cylinder after the reload. Slipping a new mag in might have been within his capability even with the injury.

 

[Nanuk]

The assumption there is that if it had been another round that Platt would have died.

No assumption. I have never been a fan of the 9mm, even before the Miami fiasco. I am a 357 guy at heart. even before the Miami shootout I was shooting my 357 competitively. I trained hard, I wanted to dominate any fight I was in.

Working the inner cities in the 1980's I carried a 6" L frame, a 2 1/2" L frame and a Walther PPK/s .

I have been around enough shootings that I am pretty convinced with what I carry, which was my old duty loads. Too many people are all worked up over "barrier blind" and such. The 357 was barrier blind in 1935.

 

[JohnKSa]

I have never been a fan of the 9mm, even before the Miami fiasco. I am a 357 guy at heart. even before the Miami shootout I was shooting my 357 competitively. I trained hard, I wanted to dominate any fight I was in.

The only guy to score hits before Platt & Matix exited the Monte Carlo was McNeill, shooting his .357Mag revolver. (There is speculation as to whether he was firing .357Mag rounds or .38Sp +P. My understanding is that the agents were not really supposed to be using .357Mag ammo.)

McNeill ran dry after 6 shots, of course, allowing Platt to exit the Monte Carlo and shoot him in the neck while he was trying to reload.

It's not unreasonable to speculate that had McNeill been shooting a high capacity 9, given his performance with his first 6 shots (neutralizing Matix), and his excellent position, 7-8 feet from the threats, he might have been able to use the remaining rounds in the pistol to neutralize Platt before he exited the vehicle and went on his killing spree.

Obviously it's not possible to know what would have happened, but it's not a completely off-the-wall theory given the circumstances.

 

[Nanuk]

The only guy to score hits before Platt & Matix exited the Monte Carlo was McNeill, shooting his .357Mag revolver. (There is speculation as to whether he was firing .357Mag rounds or .38Sp +P. My understanding is that the agents were not really supposed to be using .357Mag ammo.)

McNeill ran dry after 6 shots, of course, allowing Platt to exit the Monte Carlo and shoot him in the neck while he was trying to reload.

It's not unreasonable to speculate that had McNeill been shooting a high capacity 9, given his performance with his first 6 shots (neutralizing Matix), and his excellent position, 7-8 feet from the threats, he might have been able to use the remaining rounds in the pistol to neutralize Platt before he exited the vehicle and went on his killing spree.

Obviously it's not possible to know what would have happened, but it's not a completely off-the-wall theory given the circumstances.

It is also not unreasonable that if he had been using a hicap 9mm he still would have missed most of his shots. More capacity does not make a better shot. only one guy in the whole group was a shooter and he was blind when he lost his glasses. The rest were average shots. After training feds for a couple decades I can tell you that even above average shots are not really that good.

 

[Moonglum]

And that is why I have NEVER been a 9mm fan.

If I understand what I read that particular round went through Platt's arm, severing the Brachial Artery (which meant he was going to die no matter what) entered his chest and stopped just short of his heart.

Can we be certain that (excluding .40 S&W or 10mm which didn't exist) any other service caliber round using 1980s technology would have performed better?

 

[Nanuk]

If I understand what I read that particular round went through Platt's arm, severing the Brachial Artery (which meant he was going to die no matter what) entered his chest and stopped just short of his heart.

Can we be certain that (excluding .40 S&W or 10mm which didn't exist) any other service caliber round using 1980s technology would have performed better?

I would say a 357 magnum with anything but a 110 grain JHP.

A friend of mine shot a guy after he hit him with a 74 LTD. Fired a 158 grn SJHP. Went thru the windshield, thru the BG, thru the front seat, thru the back seat and was laying in the trunk.

The guy did not die, but was incapacitated immediately.

Granted that was just one shooting. We also had a lot of shootings with WW 145 grn STHP's which is what I carried for years. It is hard to find a bad 357 JHP.

The 41 magnum was developed as an LE round in the 1960's.

The 10mm existed at the time, and actually the 40 did as well though not what most people think. It was sort of an experimental cartridge S&W was looking at for competition.