I came to the conclusion that this is what is happening last night. If all these people on youtube and doing their own 'scientific' tests is what is driving ammunition purchases, then ammo manufacturers are naturally going to oblige and build ammo that looks good in slow motion gel tests.
How do you choose your SD ammo?
- Thread starter ghbucky
- Start date
I came to the conclusion that this is what is happening last night. If all these people on youtube and doing their own 'scientific' tests is what is driving ammunition purchases, then ammo manufacturers are naturally going to oblige and build ammo that looks good in slow motion gel tests.
The HOW was by trying several different brands until I found one I felt comfortable with - that means it performed flawlessly in ANY of the 9mms (which is what I use) that I am likely to employ in a SD/HD scenario. After that was accuracy. (the WHY) For ME, in MY guns, that meant Speer Lawman 124 TMJ for practice and Speer Gold Dot 124 JHP for carry/nightstand. Running those GD over a chrono, I got an extreme spread of 6 - VERY consistent and consistent generally translates into good accuracy.
Obviously it (the ammo) has to function reliably.
I want at least 12'' penetration and consistent expansion in heavy clothed gel, testing linked in post #4.
Federal also provides test data:
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx
For me:
9mm 124/147 HST +P
40 S&W 180 HST, Gold Dot, 165 Ranger Bonded
45 acp 230 HST, Ranger T
I'm not betting my life on less than 9mm, Glock 19 is my minimum carry.
I want at least 12'' penetration and consistent expansion in heavy clothed gel, testing linked in post #4.
Federal also provides test data:
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx
For me:
9mm 124/147 HST +P
40 S&W 180 HST, Gold Dot, 165 Ranger Bonded
45 acp 230 HST, Ranger T
I'm not betting my life on less than 9mm, Glock 19 is my minimum carry.
In the real world... 12” isn’t enough
After poorly placed shots, the most common “failure“ I’ve noted over the decades...
Poor penetration
In fact I’ve come across countless examples over the decades where expansion could have likely saved the person/animal
There is actually one high profile example that anyone can look into themselves
Christopher Wallace
All four shots pierced the vehicle door (penetration)
Three hit non-vital areas (placement)
But one of the four FMJs struck him in the hip
It traveled diagonally from right hip to left shoulder, his entire torso
Doubtful an expanding projectile would have pierced the door and made it through his heart and lung
I’ve personally run into multiple similar examples over the decades
FireForged
New member
easy:
is it a JHP? [yes].. CHECK
is it reliable in my gun? [yes].. CHECK
I prefer something other than 115 gr its not a deal breaker.
I believe in the science of ballistics but to be honest, it aint what I consider a gunfight to hinge upon. I am not a flavor of the month kind of guy or someone who suckers for flashy marketing. I just want the projectile to put holes in stuff and I want it to stay where I put it.
is it a JHP? [yes].. CHECK
is it reliable in my gun? [yes].. CHECK
I prefer something other than 115 gr its not a deal breaker.
I believe in the science of ballistics but to be honest, it aint what I consider a gunfight to hinge upon. I am not a flavor of the month kind of guy or someone who suckers for flashy marketing. I just want the projectile to put holes in stuff and I want it to stay where I put it.
Which “science” is that?
ammo.crafter
New member
SD
2X for Lucky Gunner
2X for Lucky Gunner
Bullets work in 1 of 3 ways. Skeletal, Blood, Neurological. You can break bone, pelvic girdle for example, and disable. You can hit spine or brain and disable. Blood is more complicated. It can take a significant amount of time to bleed out. Unless you hit heart or lungs either stopping blood flow, or uptake of oxygen (blood filling lungs) blood is not a great option.
My understanding is the FBI standards were created to ensure a bullet could reach the vital areas through clothing, or an awkward angle. They are also designed so that they do not over penetrate and hurt someone behind them. depending on your use this may or may not be what you need.
I think if you a dealing with a major manufacturer, all of their premium SD ammo will meet FBI standards and be adequate. I also think most of their SD ammo, and hunting ammo will as well. All in all it basically comes down to personal preference.
As far as how I choose. I hit up the big companies first. Federal, remington, speer, Winchester, hornady. Most of the larger manufacturers make rounds for law enforcement agencies. This has 3 benefits, more R&D to stay ahead of the other companies, meaning better bullets over all. That they meet FBI standards, also good. And sometimes lower prices depending on where you can find them due to scale of manufacturing. I find a round and then look for ammo tests on youtube. I really like speer gold dots, I hate the casing they use. I generally go with Federal HST. they meet FBI standards and I got some 50rnd boxes for $28 a while back and got a bunch. I feel like Winchester PDX1 is good but too expensive. I was never into the golden saber, I heard about failures to expand. Hornady critical defenese is an interesting round. I feel like Hornady really favors expansion over penetration. It is the ONLY round i would carry in 32 or 380 as both tend to under penetrate in hollow point ammunition. In 9mm or larger I would go with HP.
All in all it is more about getting the rounds where they need to go than the bullet itself. There are a LOT of good bullets, its mostly personal preference.
My understanding is the FBI standards were created to ensure a bullet could reach the vital areas through clothing, or an awkward angle. They are also designed so that they do not over penetrate and hurt someone behind them. depending on your use this may or may not be what you need.
I think if you a dealing with a major manufacturer, all of their premium SD ammo will meet FBI standards and be adequate. I also think most of their SD ammo, and hunting ammo will as well. All in all it basically comes down to personal preference.
As far as how I choose. I hit up the big companies first. Federal, remington, speer, Winchester, hornady. Most of the larger manufacturers make rounds for law enforcement agencies. This has 3 benefits, more R&D to stay ahead of the other companies, meaning better bullets over all. That they meet FBI standards, also good. And sometimes lower prices depending on where you can find them due to scale of manufacturing. I find a round and then look for ammo tests on youtube. I really like speer gold dots, I hate the casing they use. I generally go with Federal HST. they meet FBI standards and I got some 50rnd boxes for $28 a while back and got a bunch. I feel like Winchester PDX1 is good but too expensive. I was never into the golden saber, I heard about failures to expand. Hornady critical defenese is an interesting round. I feel like Hornady really favors expansion over penetration. It is the ONLY round i would carry in 32 or 380 as both tend to under penetrate in hollow point ammunition. In 9mm or larger I would go with HP.
All in all it is more about getting the rounds where they need to go than the bullet itself. There are a LOT of good bullets, its mostly personal preference.
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I SHOULD probably take this topic more seriously.
But n fact,....I look at what the favorites are here on TFL
I look at Lucky Gunner.
I have an idea what bullet weight I want. I lean away from the lightest bullet weights. However,per Wilson,I might go 185 gr 45 ACP if I had a short bbl 1911.
All that in my head,I go to my LGS and see what is on the shelf. Almost never is my supposed first choice there. Now what?
Sometimes I go to another LGS.
But frankly,I don't know that there IS a "Best" . One day,I might need penetration,the next expansion.
I buy at least two boxes of something I recognise from the "good list"
One box is for a reliability/sight check.
IMO,any name brand 124 gr 9mm jhp that my gun will shoot will probably do just fine.If it does not,I don't think a different "magic bullet / load" would make the difference.
And any advantage for combat on Tuesday might well be a disadvantage for combat on Thursday.
First criteria is flawless function. Rem,Win,Fed,Horn,etc IMO,will all do after function
But n fact,....I look at what the favorites are here on TFL
I look at Lucky Gunner.
I have an idea what bullet weight I want. I lean away from the lightest bullet weights. However,per Wilson,I might go 185 gr 45 ACP if I had a short bbl 1911.
All that in my head,I go to my LGS and see what is on the shelf. Almost never is my supposed first choice there. Now what?
Sometimes I go to another LGS.
But frankly,I don't know that there IS a "Best" . One day,I might need penetration,the next expansion.
I buy at least two boxes of something I recognise from the "good list"
One box is for a reliability/sight check.
IMO,any name brand 124 gr 9mm jhp that my gun will shoot will probably do just fine.If it does not,I don't think a different "magic bullet / load" would make the difference.
And any advantage for combat on Tuesday might well be a disadvantage for combat on Thursday.
First criteria is flawless function. Rem,Win,Fed,Horn,etc IMO,will all do after function
I don't do a lot of research into self defense ammo. Any decent looking hollow point, that doesn't cost $2 per round is good enough for me. Will a $2 per round bullet do better than a $0.50 bullet? Maybe, maybe not. Tests can be found on the internet that show bullets failing to do what they claim, on every brand out there. Shot placement, and keeping the trigger moving until the threat is neutralized seems more important to me.
I used to carry a S&W J frame .38Spcl. I bought a box of 50 'old school' semi jacketed hollow points that was on sale and called it good. Shot 5 rounds to check point of impact, yep, good to go. I now carry a Kel-Tec P32. Saw some reviews that warn about the dreaded .32 acp rim lock, so I decided to use ball ammo. No rim lock, and a bit better penetration. Yep, I'm good.
If the time arrives that I am forced to remove my carry pistol from concealment (I pray I never have to) I don't plan to stand and fight. I plan to use it only long enough to get me the hell away from the trouble. Yes, I plan to flee. As far as I'm concerned, my $0.20 per round ball ammo will do just as good at letting me flee as $2.00 per round stuff will.
I used to carry a S&W J frame .38Spcl. I bought a box of 50 'old school' semi jacketed hollow points that was on sale and called it good. Shot 5 rounds to check point of impact, yep, good to go. I now carry a Kel-Tec P32. Saw some reviews that warn about the dreaded .32 acp rim lock, so I decided to use ball ammo. No rim lock, and a bit better penetration. Yep, I'm good.
If the time arrives that I am forced to remove my carry pistol from concealment (I pray I never have to) I don't plan to stand and fight. I plan to use it only long enough to get me the hell away from the trouble. Yes, I plan to flee. As far as I'm concerned, my $0.20 per round ball ammo will do just as good at letting me flee as $2.00 per round stuff will.
I said "at least" 12''
The Federal link I included in my post.
Lets compare two popular heavy bullet options in 9mm & 40 Gold Dot and HST:
Heavy Clothing:
9mm 147 Gold Dot - 14.9'' / .57
9mm 147 HST - 12.5'' / .69
40 S&W 180 Gold Dot - 13.2'' / .70
40 S&W 180 HST - 12.5'' / .80
Steel:
9mm 147 Gold Dot - 19.4'' / .42
9mm 147 HST - 17.5'' / .43
40 S&W 180 Gold Dot - 19.6'' / .50
40 S&W 180 HST - 11'' / .45
Auto glass:
9mm 147 Gold Dot - 12.9'' / .56
9mm 147 HST - 11'' / .68
40 S&W 180 Gold Dot - 12.7'' / .61
40 S&W 180 HST - 14'' / .62
180 gr. Gold Dots (in my Glock 23 & 35
) penetrate at least 12'' through various barriers and expand, tested by the manufacturer. 
No way I'm carrying FMJ, as long as I have HP that performs like that.
And I said... 12" isn't enough
A consistent 16" is the sweet spot
Not a single one of those averages 16"
But by all means, carry whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy
I really like the "Meat Target" test that Paul Harrell does in his tests on YouTube.
I believe it's a much more realistic target than Ballistics Gel.
I also disagree that FMJ is a better option over JHP simply because of penetration. If you believe this to be the case, check out some of the videos from Paul Harrell showing the damage to the inner "orange tissue" and the exit wounds on the rear set of ribs. He does an excellent job with these presentations.
Also, this is an excellent video from the bullet developers at Federal discussing Gel Tests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y
While placement is key, let's not fool ourselves into thinking modern bullet design is simply a gimmick. While some of them may be, the primary bullets from the major manufacturers seem to be well tested and optimized for their intended purpose.
I believe it's a much more realistic target than Ballistics Gel.
I also disagree that FMJ is a better option over JHP simply because of penetration. If you believe this to be the case, check out some of the videos from Paul Harrell showing the damage to the inner "orange tissue" and the exit wounds on the rear set of ribs. He does an excellent job with these presentations.
Also, this is an excellent video from the bullet developers at Federal discussing Gel Tests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y
While placement is key, let's not fool ourselves into thinking modern bullet design is simply a gimmick. While some of them may be, the primary bullets from the major manufacturers seem to be well tested and optimized for their intended purpose.
Question. According to the FBI, bullets that expand and penetrate between 12″ and 18″ of gelatin are generally considered acceptable. Ok, so if a bad guy is shot with a bullet that will penetrate 18", and the bullet does not hit bone, only soft tissue and soft organs, the bullet will pass completely through the bad guy, and probably still have enough energy to kill the person standing behind the bad guy, say, an eight year old kid that the shooter didn't even see.
There is no 'magic bullet' that will only kill bad guys, and stop an inch after it exits the bad guys body. I know that. But 18" is one heck of a lot of penetration as far as I'm concerned. Isn't the average human body, front to back something like 10-12 inches? 18" is over penetration, way over.
But I'm just a lowly target shooter, and if a bullet has enough power to punch through a paper target, I'm good.
Comider reviewing the late Steve Camp websight..
hipowers and handguns.
He has som articles on various calibeers and pratical test results.
Like can a 9mm take doen a deer, YED but.
For my use for 9mm, went with Hornady's XTP in 9mm ]124 gr XTP] for use in my 9's., and they are POS/POI.
Did like to carry the 140gr XTP in .38Spl, but they dropped that load, now looking at the 125gr, but like the Late Col. Cooper, prefer a medium weight bullet at medim velocity.
.357ag the 140gr XTP is again a POA/POI
,45ACP the 230GR XTP,.
the XTP seems to meet the FBI requirements.
Good Luck.
hipowers and handguns.
He has som articles on various calibeers and pratical test results.
Like can a 9mm take doen a deer, YED but.
For my use for 9mm, went with Hornady's XTP in 9mm ]124 gr XTP] for use in my 9's., and they are POS/POI.
Did like to carry the 140gr XTP in .38Spl, but they dropped that load, now looking at the 125gr, but like the Late Col. Cooper, prefer a medium weight bullet at medim velocity.
.357ag the 140gr XTP is again a POA/POI
,45ACP the 230GR XTP,.
the XTP seems to meet the FBI requirements.
Good Luck.