How can a simple hug cause a weapon to discharge?

[Glockstar .40]

i didnt read the article so im just goin off a couple threads. he was off duty he could have been wearing a holster shirt. those dont have trigger guards! at least the 5.11 doesnt......just a thought

 

[Glockstar .40]

nevermind it was a IWB...my bad

 

[verdun59]

Sounds bogus, some info is being withheld Don't know if we will ever get all the details. Do I hear the faint cry for more gun control........

 

[Kreyzhorse]

There is certainly more to this story than has been made public. I don't believe the gun was holstered when it went off nor does it make sense that the bullet hit her in the lung and heart if it was holstered.

While this might have been an accident, I believe a ND was to blame.

 

[cerberus65]

My bet is that the cop was the one who inadvertently pulled the trigger trying to regain control of his weapon that was unexpectedly removed from his control by the "hugger". I hope I'm wrong, though.

 

[9mm]

My bet is that the cop was the one who inadvertently pulled the trigger trying to regain control of his weapon that was unexpectedly removed from his control by the "hugger". I hope I'm wrong, though.

Hmm, could have been. *HUGS*, What are you doing? turns and grab to stop her from touching him, and she falls down, while falling his gun trigger is pulled by mistake some how by him protecting his gun(grab?), due to soft material holster..?


Just a thought.

 

[Nathan]

His gun, which was in a waist holster, went off, and the bullet punctured Miller's lung and hit her heart. She died at a hospital.

Godbee said the gun was in a waist holster made of soft material, which would have allowed the trigger to be activated.

Hmmm. It is not necessarily an IWB.


So much for all these new fangled safe action guns!

It would be nice to get some real facts about how this happened. Obviously the action design had something to do with it. An XD might not have been held properly to fire. A 1911 would have required one more step and a good grip to fire. A revolver would have required about twice the force to fire.

More important, I think we should all reevaluate our use of things named safe packer, holster shirt, packing in a crown royal bag, etc. All guns should be stored in a double or triple safe way. That is 2 -3 deliberate movements to fire. i.e. (XD)
1) Get a firm grip
2) draw from trigger protected holster
3) pull trigger

DETROIT (AP) — The mother of a Detroit woman shot and killed while dancing with an off-duty police officer questioned Monday why he would carry a loaded gun at a party in his own backyard.

She must not be from Detroit! Doesn't it have an incredibly high murrder rate? Oh yes, it does.

Police said Adaisha Miller was dancing with the officer early Sunday morning when she hugged him from behind. His gun, which was in a waist holster, went off, and the bullet punctured Miller's lung and hit her heart. She died at a hospital.

We are really going to need to understand what this holster is. . .

Detroit Police Chief Ralph Godbee described Miller's death during a Monday news conference as a tragic, "unfathomable" accident.

"Somehow, in the course of dancing with the individual to his rear and touching his waist, his Detroit Police Department-issued weapon discharged, striking Ms. Miller," Godbee said. "There is absolutely no indication that the officer placed his hand on his weapon at all."

Godbee implied contact from Miller appeared to have caused the gun to go off, but he stopped short of saying she pulled the trigger on the .40-caliber handgun.

He might want to start pointing the finger at someone because it is pointed directly at the department policies and training which would allow an offficer to CCW an action type like that in an unsuitable holster. This can be expanded on, but is not needed here.

The officer, 38-year-old Isaac Parrish, has been placed on desk duty while the case is investigated. There was no answer at his home early Monday afternoon. Godbee said Parrish is "very remorseful."

Probably reasonable as he seems to have either made a poor decision about how to CCW that gun or lacked effective training to help him make the right choice.

Miller was celebrating the weekend before her 25th birthday on Monday, said her mother, Yolanda McNair. She was invited to the Saturday night fish fry at Parrish's home by friends who knew him, McNair said.

"Why do you need a gun at your own house? Why do you need a gun at your own party?" she asked. McNair said she would be watching the police investigation closely.

Does she live in Detroit. In a place with a murder rate that high, I ask. . .where was her gun at! Does she realize that sometimes people get arrested and it isn't all smiles. Sometimes people don't like getting arrested and are willing to devote some serious resources to telling the officer they didn't like it.

Detroit police officers have the option of carrying their weapons while off-duty. The model issued by the department has a safety mechanism built into the trigger.

I would like to formally request we call "safety" devices which do not require a distinctly seperate action something else like passive action locks. . .

The Smith & Wesson M&P primarily was designed for police and military use. It does not have a safety switch, but the trigger has to be pulled back completely for the gun to fire, certified firearms instructor Rick Ector said.

Let me translate. Idiots like you and I aren't smart enough to handle rhese special safetyless guns like police and military. We might treat them with respect and carry in a kydex or leather rig which covers the trigger completely.

Ector said that if properly holstered, the gun cannot be fired accidentally.

He ought to launch rockets for a living!

David Balash, a former Michigan State Police firearms examiner, said the investigation also should look at the gun's angle given that Miller was shot in the chest.

"What's going to be very important here is the angle of the entry of the wound to the victim (and) if there is in fact any gunpowder residue," Balash said. "I'm having a great deal of difficulty understanding how a weapon that's pointed at the ground can be turned literally 110 degrees minimum to be in an upward position to strike someone."

Wow someone worth quoting. I knew it was in here somewhere.

But Godbee said Parrish's waist holster was made of a soft, neoprene-type material, and it would be possible for the trigger to be pulled while the gun was in it. He also said the barrel direction typically would have been pointing down while holstered.

Here we are real data.
Is it this? link
link
link

There still is "no justification" for her daughter's death, said McNair, 44.

"She didn't do anything wrong," McNair said. "She told us she was going to a party.

"I should have been baking my daughter her birthday cake."

The Wayne County medical examiner's office was to perform an autopsy.

Not sure reasonable people can agree this. Sounds like her friendly dancing, tackle, attack may have pulled the trigger.

I hope things work out ok and we all learn from it.

 

[Luger_carbine]

The story doesn't make sense, hopefully the investigation will cut through the BS. I think anyone who knows anything about guns knows that the story is implausible.

So much for all these new fangled safe action guns!

My evaluation of whether a gun is safe or not does not include the "If I get hugged from behind will the hugger catch a bullet" test.

 

[motorhead0922]

The only things I can think of is a ricochet off the floor (very unlikely) or she slipped and fell.

 

[JohnKSa]

It is not necessarily an IWB.

It is according to the article in the link I provided in my earlier post.

This article also states that the gun was a "department-issued, 40-caliber Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistol, was in a holster worn inside the officer’s waistband ".

 

[Mik3e]

All I know for sure is that I'm not going to be hugging any cops, on or off duty.

 

[TX_QtPi]

ya, know... the more I thought about it, it actually makes a bit of sense. One of the articles says he was dancing when one of the two women went to hug him... If she was doing one of those "drop it" or "dip it" moves that are popular in some hip-hop/rap music then she'd be at the right level to catch a lead ball in the chest...
How the gun actually went off depends on how they were "hugging" or as stated by someone else on her horse playing...

 

[myshoulderissore]

Ok, a couple points from me that I didn't see yet...

First off, my daily carry is a Rossi 357, in a Remora holster. It's basically a triangular(ish) pouch with sticky rubberized material on the outside, I just toss it in a pocket or my waistband and go. When I first got it, I checked for the ability to interact with the trigger while holstered. The Rossi is a DA/SA revolver, obviously carried DA, and with a heavy trigger pull, so I checked it in SA mode (empty) just to satisfy curiosity. I *could* set it off, but only with some SERIOUS force, and at the right angle, and from the right spot. Repeated my testing with a XDm, and I damn near tore the holster trying to set it off. No way in hell it could happen without shredding it, and even then, with the GLock/XD/M&P trigger, would still probably require a thoughtful pull through the demolished Remora. I don't know about other "pouch" style holsters, but it couldn't happen in mine...

Second, the mothers comments about why he needed a gun in his house. In a holster at my waist is one of the safest places for my pistol, in my house! I have kids, and while technically I trust the 2 older ones with guns, I don't test that theory. On me, I know it's not with them.

Also, that had to have been one helluva "hug", I am curious for more details... Which will probably never be released.

 

[Sport45]

I can't see how hugging someone can make a weapon discharge. I mean - if a weapon were that sensiive to pressure like that, wouldn't it also go off if you got into a car?

Maybe he was carrying a Type 94 Nambu.

 

[Hansam]

Ok so I read this thread earlier today and out of sheer curiosity I called a friend who has a S&W MP40. He came over with it and we made sure the gun was unloaded and clear (magazine empty, nothing chambered, racked the slide and reinserted the mag).

I then put the gun in a neoprene IWB holster (the cheapest I could find) which was an Uncle Mike's IWB holster. For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about its essentially a thin neoprene bag with a belt clip. I then tucked the gun into my waistband at 3 oclock and covered it with my shirt.

After drawing the gun and checking again to make sure it was not loaded I asked my wife to dance behind me, grind against me and engage in other activities (as one might imagine the victim was doing at the party). The idea was to see how the gun might have gone off.

After 10 minutes of dancing, grinding and "hugging" the gun hadn't been handled in a manner that would have caused it to go off. When worn properly the trigger is inside the holster and also covered by the belt. Only the pistol grip is accessible for drawing and this makes it very difficult to get your finger into the trigger guard and pull the trigger. As for the angle of the shot I asked my wife to "dip" and as she did so I looked at her chest... anyway after I was able to re-focus on what I was doing I noticed that the muzzle of the pistol would have been pointed at her chest.

So after this test my conclusion is that it IS possible for the victim to have been shot in the chest in the scenario but I cannot determine how the gun would have been discharged unless it was somehow drawn enough from the holster in order to allow someone to put their finger in the trigger and squeeze it. Oh and by the way along that line I asked my wife to try and squeeze the trigger while dipping like that. She was able to do so however with the safe action trigger and the angle at which she had to twist her hand to get her finger into the trigger guard (and even her thumb) it wouldn't have bee something the victim would be doing unless she were reaching for his other gun and had really bad aim!

In any case things don't add up in this story. I can only hope more information will come up so we can finally make some sense of it.

EDIT: Ok so my wife came to another conclusion - what if the victim were "dipping" and reaching up UNDER the officer's shirt as in a caress or grope beneath his shirt? If the gun had somehow become dislodged or partly drawn from his holster during dancing or other physical activity and the victim had reached her hands under his shirt to grope him or whatever it IS possible her thumb might have gotten caught in the trigger guard and against the trigger of the gun. Its still very difficult to cause the gun to go off considering the "safe action trigger" of the gun however at least that is a fairly plausible assumption.

We tried this to see if it were possible and while my wife couldn't get the gun to go discharge while doing what she had theorized perhaps someone with a stronger thumb might have managed it?

 

[Denezin]

Hansam is onto something. Lets say shes even in the area of the waistband and works the gun out unintentionally. Bumps the trigger with her finger. Bam. Or very unlikely the (i guess it would be the sear.) breaks and lets the striker fall in a accident. Extremely unlikely but not impossible. Wish there were more details.

 

[Baba Louie]

All speculation but... Whilst doing a dance like move, bend over and stick your booty out while someone behind you on their knees or also bent over but maybe not as tall as you and is getting jiggy with ya, their hands manipulating your belt/waist region with their chest against your booty. Where is your holstered handguns muzzle now pointing? Not down, but to the rear.

Also speculation, but at a party perhaps booze is being consumed and you're "lost in the moment" and having a good time as it were. Not thinking real clear (it happens to the best of us) especially if manipulation/fondling is going on.

It may be that the victims hands or the, uh, dancing jostled handgun upward loosening it from holster and a thumb or finger on the victims right hand (assuming 3:00-4:00 carry) inadvertantly found it's way inside the triggerguard during said "manipulation". Boom.

What can I learn from this speculation? Weapon retention. It's not just an on the street issue, but a 24/7 clear headed necessity. Good holster mandatory. Don't be getting jiggy or too "Parh tey" minded when armed. Don't let anyone near that weapon. It is deadly dangerous and only takes a second for things to get terminally agly.

But as I said, all speculation on my part. One of those "what if" moments I tend to ponder every now and then... tho honestly, I would never foresee or "what if" this type of incident occuring... because I don't do parties, I suck at dancing and don't like people touching me if I can avoid it, especially when armed.

 

[Chuckusaret]

The local news here in West Palm Beach , channel 29, reported the weapon as a S&W M&P 40.

 

[Ronbert]

You guys sure are debunking the "simple hug" explanation.

I wonder where those words came from?

Seems like Detroit needs a new law prohibiting armed dancing.....

 

[cannonfire]

Just a thought

What if he was carrying the weapon in a inverted 6 o'clock hold? Never met anyone that carries like that but I'm sure it's done.

That would leave the muzzle pointed up and behind him as she hugged him from the back.

Perhaps she hugged and said "hey what's this? There is not suppose to be a bulge back here." he goes to retain the pistol and blammo!

Seems like Detroit needs a new law prohibiting armed dancing.....

...or hugs