Home defense help

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sportsfan1970

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I have been interested in firearms for years but have never purchased one. My wife was against it. But as she has seen the stories on the news of home invasions mainly to get cash and good to fence for drug money has become less resistant. I personally wanted to go through the process of getting a pistol permit in Suffolk County NY which is a long process.

I have spoken to several people with split opinion. Some say for home defense forget the pistol, get a shotgun or rifle. Others say the handgun is smaller, more accurate and allows you to fire with one hand if needed while opening a door or grabbing phone. Disadvantages I have heard is it will blow holes in your wall if you miss which could hit your kids.

I heard a shotgun like a Mossberg 500 gives you the ability to shoot a shot shell which will definitely hit your target but might not take out your target. A slug which is less accurate but if you hit the target will be done or a shell that is a combo shot plus slug. In addition the sound of a pump action many times scares intruders without needing to fire a shot.

I also have heard a rifle like a Ruger mini 14 is an excellent choice. Different ammunition choices. Can be customized.

The advantage would be I would not need a pistol permit and I do not believe the Ruger is classified in NY as an assault weapon so no BS with all the laws.

I am not an experienced shooter. I have fired a 10/22 several times. I have never fired handgun or shotgun. I will be taking an 8 hour NRA pistol class in NJ so that I can fire multiple types of pistols and determine what gun best suits my abilities for my needs.

Since it takes close to 12 months to get Suffolk pistol permit I am seriously considering a rifle or shotgun but would like some advice. Any thoughts on these particular guns or any other type that may suit my needs would be appreciated. Just as a point of reference I live in the burbs with a2 story house. In the event a weapon is needed I can't have a long weapon. All bedrooms are upstairs so in a defensive position I would be looking to lock selves in bedroom or defend from top of stairs.
 
Best home defense is usually agreed to be a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun with a barrel between 18.5 and 20 inches. Pumps are more reliable and will function with any kind of ammo from slugs to buckshot to birdshot to less lethal. Most also agree you can't rely on the sound of pumping the action to deter an assailant but you never know. Don't go with a pistol grip only as they are difficult to manage and shoot accurately. As far as slugs being less accurate that is not true they are more accurate and at longer distances. Not recommended for home defense as they will definitely over penetrate. Even buckshot is not guaranteed to hit your target even at close distances. The shot won't spread out like in the movies. At defense distances it's not going to spread more than the size of your fist. As far as pistols go they are excellent for carry but nowhere near the stopping power of a shotgun. The old adage goes "a pistol is for fighting your way back to your long gun. A rifle is not a great idea as they will surely overpenetrate. Rifles role is for looking long distances. A Mossberg 500 is an excellent and low cost option. Great choice for a first gun.


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Welcome. First, get training locally on guns, shooting and the law. Defending your home in NY likely has very different rules than Texas.
Find a weapon that feels right and you're comfortable with. You won't have to spend a lot, you can get some good pump shotguns for under $300 (at least Texas or Internet, no idea what NY dealers charge).

The 12 Gauge is a good suggestion if you can handle the recoil. Buckshot will stop a buck, but can also penetrate through a few walls. If you're not physically close to neighbors, then that's a good choice. If you live close, you may want to consider bird shot. Know that shooting at a bad guy inside a typical room, 20' or less in distance, there's not going to be a lot of difference in what they get hit by, be 12 ga. slug, buck or bird shot.

Finally, get out and practice. Buying a gun, learning to shoot, then putting it in a closet without ongoing training and practice is likely bad news waiting to happen.
 
Agee, I have plenty of handguns and rifles. My choice is still a 12 gauge pump with 8 rounds and a 20" barrel. Even number 2 shot will make a good home defense round within the normal room distance of most homes or in an open floor plan of several rooms distances. Since I have out building (boat house/dock and a detached garage) to also consider, I alternate buckshot and slugs.

The pump action sound will not assist me since its sound will not be heard until after the first round is discharged. I keep a round in the chamber with only the safety on. With children you have additional concerns to take into consideration.

A family dog is more important for the first line of defense. I have three large dogs that will provide me with an early alert along with warning those with bad intentions.
 
I can't agree with birdshot as a viable defensive option. Will barely penetrate the skin so will more than likely just piss him off. This is a poor load for a 2 legged attacker. The main reason is that no birdshot load will reach the required 12 inches of penetration needed for STOPPING a bad guy from whatever he is doing to threaten your life. Birdshot makes a very nasty, yet shallow wound, and will not reach the vital organs or CNS.

“Might” birdshot work? Sure. But why depend on “might” when “better” is available.

Use birdshot for little birds. Use buckshot for bad guys.

The smallest buckshot #4 is the best choice if concerned about over penetration. #4 is the “minimal” buckshot load, and will barely meet the penetration standards. Some folks like it, and some police departments even issue it, but it is the smallest buckshot and will penetrate the least. Larger is better, and 00 is preferred.


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Darkstar noted:
I can't agree with birdshot as a viable defensive option.
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I'll take first hand exception to that.

A 12 ga. birdshot wound from ~ 15-20 feet on a feral hog is very lethal, quickly. Feet, not yards. We're not shooting birds at a 'close 25 yards' where the pattern is 2-3' wide. At 3-4 yards / 15-20 feet the hole is about 2-3" in diameter. That's an across-the-room shot in the larger rooms of most homes, the pattern is about. And I'm pretty sure that a feral hog's skin is much tougher than human flesh.

I have a couple of pictures, they're pretty graphic, and I don't think the mods would appreciate a link to one of those photos here.

But here is a parallel video with 4 layers of jeans material, plus pork ribs and pork shoulder.

Birdshot obliterates simulated human w/ 4 layers of denim material.

Take a look then tell me birdshot won't penetrate human skin :)
 
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That would make a good YouTube video "Birdshot into ballistic gel at close range". Results might be surprising.
 
I am not an experienced shooter. I have fired a 10/22 several times. I have never fired handgun or shotgun.
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So don't rush into this. Start by hardening your house - solid steel doors, excellent locks, a German Shepherd or similar, thorny bushes under the windows, motion sensor lights, solid wood door with good locks on the bedroom door and - if you have a walk-in closet - a solid steel door with dead bolts and camera monitors and cell phone. Do all that first, and then go take a class and get a gun -in NY, it is going to take a while
 
I am with others on this, out of my firearms, the 12gauge has the bed side duties. I have it cruiser ready which means the safety is off and all that needs to be done is a rack of the slide.
 
TXAZ said:
Darkstar noted:



I'll take first hand exception to that.



A 12 ga. birdshot wound from ~ 15-20 feet on a feral hog is very lethal, quickly. Feet, not yards. We're not shooting birds at a 'close 25 yards' where the pattern is 2-3' wide. At 3-4 yards / 15-20 feet the hole is about 2-3" in diameter. That's an across-the-room shot in the larger rooms of most homes, the pattern is about. And I'm pretty sure that a feral hog's skin is much tougher than human flesh.



I have a couple of pictures, they're pretty graphic, and I don't think the mods would appreciate a link to one of those photos here.



But here is a parallel video with 4 layers of jeans material, plus pork ribs and pork shoulder.



Birdshot obliterates simulated human w/ 4 layers of denim material.



Take a look then tell me birdshot won't penetrate human skin :)
Click to expand...



Ok then. No first hand experience just did a ton of research when I got my 590A1 and went with the consensus of the pros and ER docs.


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We all have our preferences. I like having the extra round therefore a round in the chamber. My scattergun is a former Alabama State Trooper Mossberg 500 ATP. The acronym is "A" for 12 gauge and "TP" for Tactical Police.
 
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Suffolk County, very population dense, nice houses, close together.

Shotgun, buck shot, full choke. Buck shot will rapidly lose velocity and lethality past 100 feet. Birdshot is simply not effective enough, especially if you have a nice big house with large rooms and hallways.


But here is a parallel video with 4 layers of jeans material, plus pork ribs and pork shoulder.
Click to expand...

Should be helpful in the kitchen.

Rifles are risky in such a dense environment, especially if you are looking in your neighbor's windows. Projectiles leaving your property are bad. High speed projectiles are really bad.

Pistols are a little better but won't match the power of a shotgun at close range. I think NY current arbitrary magazine limit is ten. 4-7 rounds of buckshot vs 5-10 rounds of defensive pistol ammo.

Possession is faster and easier with the shotgun. Aiming and operating is simpler too.

Shooting and handling are faster with a pistol. Reloading too.

I'd go with the shotgun.
 
#1 buckshot (12 ga.) is the best home defense shotgun load. I recommend reading the relevant information at The Box O' Truth website. Some time ago I referenced another source of information on the subject supporting my statement, but that report apparently is no longer available on the internet. In my opinion it is easier to handle a short barrel shotgun and shoot it accurately than it is shoot a handgun in a residence. Edited to add: I have a Rem 870 Home Defense shotgun placed for quick access.
 
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I agree that a shotgun might be your best choice considering your location and lack of experience. You cannot just buy the shotgun and a couple of boxes of shells and call it good though. A shotgun loaded with buckshot is quite capable of shooting through inside walls with enough energy to kill unintentionally. At self-defense distances its pattern is very small, requiring the skill to be able to hit your target. The noise and recoil may be more than you can handle. It is heavy and requires practice to be maneuvered inside your home. What I'm saying is before you buy a gun you have to be committed to learning how to safely use it. This requires training. Bringing a gun into the house without it does not make you safer. Good luck.
 
I have AR's, AK's, bolt guns, over a dozen pistols and shot guns.
My home defense gun is a Remington 870 police magnum with a light attached to it, an 18.25 inch barrel, and a magazine tube extension holding 9, 2 and 3/4 inch rounds. I was in the military, and am an NRA certified rifle instructor. I only say all that to make the point that I am very familiar with many weapons, but still I choose a shotgun. The reasons are:
1: if someone breaks in, you will be scared/ nervous and shooting isn't as easy as the movies make it look....i have seen people calmly at the pistol range completely miss at 15 yards.
2: The only thing more reliable than a pump action shotgun is an axe or baseball bat.
3: a 3" 00 buck shot shell has 9 .32 cal pellets in it. So if you hit your target, the bad guy will have been shot by the equivalent of 9 times with a .32 cal hand gun at 1300 fps.....you won't have to shoot again once you hit him.
4: stopping power. No hand gun will ever have more stopping power. Shotguns pellets in total may have double, triple, or even 4x the mass of even a .44 magnum.
5: simplicity, most pump shotguns have an easy safety and the sight is easy to use.

The reason I carry a pistol concealed for self defense is because I can't feasibly carry a rifle or shotgun.
 
Put me down for the handgun. I have doors to open and kids to carry.

A 4" .38/.357 or simple autoloader is my choice.
 
WELCOME to TFL!

Shotgun, buck shot, full choke. Buck shot will rapidly lose velocity and lethality past 100 feet
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I would disagree with a bit of this. At indoor ranges, choke doesn't matter.
And, while buckshot may "rapidly lose velocity, it is still lethal at distances well beyond 100feet. A single pellet could kill at more than double that distance, though unlikely.

The shotgun has been doing successful defense work since the beginnings of shotguns. But it is NOT magic.

Do you know anyone who HAS a shotgun?? Is there a range you can get to? GO SHOOTING. Foot the bill, and get some first hand experience before you go and buy anything, if at all possible.

And don't neglect the other side of the coin, your rights and roles under the law when it comes to the use of deadly force. DO NOT TAKE "locker room/bar room friendly advice". Some of it MAY be true, much will not be, either about guns, or about the law.

Take a Hunter Safety class, for basic safe gun handling rules. THEN consider more training, and how to get it. Self taught can be done, and done right, but often isn't.

I have spoken to several people with split opinion. Some say for home defense forget the pistol, get a shotgun or rifle. Others say the handgun is smaller, more accurate and allows you to fire with one hand if needed while opening a door or grabbing phone. Disadvantages I have heard is it will blow holes in your wall if you miss which could hit your kids.
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Handguns are more difficult to use accurately and effectively than long guns in many situations. They do have their advantages, without question, but there are drawback as well. And, I've got some news for you, EVERYTHING will blow holes in your walls if you miss, unless your walls are concrete or brick.

This forum is a fine place to get information and informed opinion, as well as the more common kind of opinion.;)

Somewhere between barricade in a safe room and wait for the police and I'm clearing the house, Rambo keep up, if ya can! you will likely find some advice that applies to your personal situation.

There's a few hundred years worth of personal experience on tap here, (if not more), the biggest risk is information overload. :D

Good Luck, and we'll answer questions and offer suggestions as best we can.
 
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