Home defense, .357 vs. 12 gauge?

[44 AMP]

You will not lose an arm if shot by a .357....

Actually, you might.

I won't say its likely, but it is possible.

It will not drop a man with one shot, and will not crack the engine block of a Chevy.

The one person I have seen shot with a .357 stayed on his feet for approximately 30 seconds, and then fell. He was hit in the shin!

I don't know about cracking the engine block of a Chevy, but I do know the .357 will absolutely shatter 17cm of bone, and I have (somewhere) the X-rays to prove it! No piece of the bone was larger than 1/4" to 3/8" along the bullet path.

According to the doctors, if the bullet had hit as little as 1/4" away from where it did they would have been forced to amputate.

Lose the limb from a .357 Mag hit? it could happen

And FYI, the hit I'm talking about was a 160gr SWC driven by a case full of H110. Unsure if a 125gr JHP in the same spot and angle would have been "better" or "worse".

 

[Dragline45]

Actually, you might.

I won't say its likely, but it is possible.

No doubting that, but it's not as clear and cut as the statement I responded to which was

"Hit a man in the arm with a .357 hollow point he loses the arm. The 38 just about as much depending on velocity and bullet weight."

It's more likely you will suffer nerve and muscle damage than actually losing your entire arm. It also reminded me of my old boss who told me that a .45 will literally take your arm off

The one person I have seen shot with a .357 stayed on his feet for approximately 30 seconds, and then fell. He was hit in the shin!

According to the doctors, if the bullet had hit as little as 1/4" away from where it did they would have been forced to amputate.

Lose the limb from a .357 Mag hit? it could happen

Yikes, I know how much it hurts to get whacked in the shin with a baseball, getting it shattered by a .357 round I don't think I would have even lasted 30 seconds.

Again no doubt that a single shot from a .357 can drop a man in his tracks, but ever since that Marshall and Sanow study which is inherently flawed, some people are under the impression that the .357 is a magic one shot stop bullet which it's not. Also no doubting that getting shot by anything can cause you to lose a limb, but being a .357 won't make it any more likely to happen.

 

[Gunfixr]

You did not mention in the op your spouse prefers a wheelgun. So, yes, if she wants a 357, and will be more effective with the 357 over the 1911, by all means get her one. If its a short gun, she may not like the recoil, in which case you can simply run 38spl or 38+ps in it.
Any of these versions, in a good jhp, will do.
If you can find decent shells, your 16ga will do just fine. It will make a fist sized hole at room distance, just like a 12 or a 20 ga.
You dont really have to have buckshot. Any heavier shot will suffice. A good high brass load, like remington express or similar, in a #4, #5, or maybe #6 will do. Some #2 would be better. The smaller shot is lighter per pellet, and will dissipate more quickly. Still blow right through a wall, but go likely go through less of them. Dont go too light, heavy clothing, such as heavy winter coats or leather, can dissipate bird shot (#7, #8) too quickly, and not give much penetration to the tissue underneath.

And yes, it is quite easy to miss with a shotgun, even, maybe especially, at close range.

 

[dakota.potts]

Only problem is what I want is not legal. I want a sawed off shotgun and that's against the law. I'm not sure I want to take a chances legally with one. that being said, for now we'll settle for our 357's with lasers.

Not necessarily illegal. The above is not classified as a shotgun because the legal definition of a shotgun is one designed to be fired from the shoulder. A firearm which is not designed to be fired from the shoulder and is 26" or more in overall length is a completely legal "firearm" not under NFA purview. I believe Black Aces have barrels as short as 8.5" while maintaining this length.

They can never have had a stock from the factory, so you must either build one from a virgin shotgun receiver, buy another "firearm" (such as the Mossberg Pistol Grip Only which are checked as "other" on the form 4473), or by one from the manufacturer such as Black Aces, who charge a pretty penny for it.

 

[FairWarning]

What you are referring to is auditory exclusion, but just because your brain didn't register the shot doesn't mean that it wont damage your hearing. My ENT specifically said that auditory exclusion does absolutely nothing to protect your ears it is 100% mental. So it is absolutely not a moot point, as I posted earlier if I can limit the amount of damage done to my already damaged ears but still use a suitable round I will, which is one of the reasons my bedside gun is a full size 9mm.

Agreed. If you can survive with minimal hearing damage, or survive and be deaf, why would you choose to be deaf??!!!! I have either a 9mm or .45 full size on standby at my bedside. Full house .357 loads are recreational devices of mass destruction for me, not something I would shoot indoors!!

 

[Tinbucket]

Home efense vs 12 gauge

As regards post no 57 not referring to any magic of .357. Just waht I observed with a hollow point.
Mid torso hit with hollow point is devestating. .44 or more so.

 

[Brit]

If the prior mentioned Lady of the house prefers a Revolver, a 148g target .38 Spl, factory load would be fine in a house.

First off, a flat point (splat) less recoil/report. Hearing loss, not half as much as a .357.

 

[TimSr]

You will not lose an arm if shot by a .357....

Not necessarily, but certainly possible. There are enough 3 legged deer to make that point.

Despite the myths, the .357 is not a magic bullet by any means, and compared to rifle rounds it's marginal at best. It will not drop a man with one shot, and will not crack the engine block of a Chevy.

Again, there's about a 50/50 chance

There are stories of people taking cylinders full of .357 to the chest or stomach and lived to tell about it.

I've heard those stories. One was called "The Terminator". Another was called "Robocop".

You can be sitting in a hospital ER, and if somebody puts 6 holes all the way through your chest with anything, they won't be able to plug the holes fast enough to save you.



As for shotgun, the key to shotguns being a safe, very letheal, yet non-pentration round is to skip the buck shot and use #4, #5, or #6 small game shot. Unless your rooms are 150ft across, 0 or 00 buck is not any more lethal for a close range direct hit.

 

[MarkCO]

As for shotgun, the key to shotguns being a safe, very letheal, yet non-pentration round is to skip the buck shot and use #4, #5, or #6 small game shot.

I guess someone had to go there...Unless you are using cut shells, birdshot is worthless past some distance and while messy up close, it is not a reliable stopper. Do some homework regarding terminal ballistics, specifically related to birdshot gunshot wounds and the fallacy of your belief will be evident.

 

[AverageJo]

Just use your 45 and get a suppressor. That's what I use and it's fine.

 

[TimSr]

Do some homework regarding terminal ballistics, specifically related to birdshot gunshot wounds and the fallacy of your belief will be evident.

If your homework consisted of shooting many different critters with shotgun at many different ranges over 3 or 4 decades, it might shine a little light on the fallacies one can pick up on the internet.

 

[psalm7]

I remember one day on a skeet range one shooter fires a 3" mag # 8 one single #8 shot hits another shooter in the neck 150 yds away after rainbowing to get to him . It did not break the skin but knocked him to the gorund leaving a bright red whelp . Nothing to do with home defence but from point blank to 10 feet what do you think the result would be if someone was shot dead center of their face with a cheap low brass 12 ga load of #8 or #71/2 . At 30 yards if someone gets the drop on a armed home invader in their yard and gives them a blast from a good field load hitting them in the chest or head the fight pretty much over it could take another round , chances are good the bg may not die but he could . One true story is a homeowner in Chattanooga TN was having trouble with a creeper/peeping tom bothering his family . He took his old Ithaca 37 and confronted the creeper one night the tango raised a knife and charged . One shot and knife and the bg's right hand disapeared . No charges filed .
Having said the above my preffered weapon of choice is a Ruger Black Hawk .357 Mag loaded with Win Silver tip HP's and Mini 14 with 30 rds of FMJ's . I do keep a Rem 870 Tact handy and use 00 Buck in it .

 

[Theohazard]

I remember one day on a skeet range one shooter fires a 3" mag # 8 one single #8 shot hits another shooter in the neck 150 yds away after rainbowing to get to him . It did not break the skin but knocked him to the gorund leaving a bright red whelp .

Even a full close-range blast from a shotgun won't knock someone down from the force alone, not unless the person is very light and already off balance. And there's no possible way that a single #8 pellet would be able to knock anyone down.

The person in your story probably fell to the ground from the psychological reaction of being shot, but he definitely wasn't physically knocked down from it.

 

[kilimanjaro]

A guy down the street where I once lived goofed up and fired his shotgun, using buckshot, inside his house. The shot penetrated both sides of an interior wall and wrecked his washing machine on the other side, as well as ruining the plumbing in the wall. A couple of pellets made it through the washer and into the wall on the opposite side of the laundry room. Fortunately, it wasn't laundry day so no one was hit.

His wife got a new washer and dryer set out of it, they have to match, you know, and new paint in both rooms, then the rest of the house. Hubby didn't have much to say about it.

I helped him put a floor drain in the laundry room, just in case, he said. The flooring needed taken up and redone, too, from the water damage.

 

[TimSr]

Even a full close-range blast from a shotgun won't knock someone down from the force alone, not unless the person is very light and already off balance.

Guess that kind of makes those LEO bean bags useless then.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

They are for pain compliance

 

[psalm7]

Ohh yes when that one #8 shot hit that guy in the neck he went to the ground . It was'nt the force it either from panic or something to do with the nerve system . He got up cussing and had a place on his neck that looked like a bee sting gone bad . I saw this incedent happen .

You should rethink the comment that a point blank blast from a shotgun will not knock someone down . There are a few people that have been knocked down from the butpad end of some shotguns .

 

[Theohazard]

Even a full close-range blast from a shotgun won't knock someone down from the force alone, not unless the person is very light and already off balance.

Guess that kind of makes those LEO bean bags useless then.

Like Glenn said, shotgun beanbags work because they hurt like heck, not because they knock the person down. A shotgun beanbag has way less energy than a regular shotgun load and it's not even close to enough to actually knock someone down.

You should rethink the comment that a point blank blast from a shotgun will not knock someone down . There are a few people that have been knocked down from the butpad end of some shotguns .

And those people are small and were off balance; they're the people who lean backwards when shooting to balance the weight of a shotgun.

I thought the whole "guns knock you down" myth had already been fully debunked in the gun world. The Mythbusters have an episode where they prove it's not true, and there's the classic video of the Second Chance guy wearing one of his vests and getting shot close-up with a .308 while standing on one foot. He doesn't even lose his balance, let alone get knocked down. And a .308 has about the same energy as a 12 ga. slug does, and all of that energy was transfered to the target because of the vest.

 

[psalm7]

See the video of the thug getting hit with the bean bag when he pushed the cop during the riots ?
Destroy enough flesh and the person is going down just because there is nothing there to suport them .
Dead is going down as well . Its not about force its the inability to stand anymore . Head shot dead drops like a bag of feed . Yes theo a firearm will put a person down in thier tracks , on the spot , like a bag of feed .

 

[Bill DeShivs]

I might as well get into this...
NO shoulder-fired weapon has the ability to "knock someone down." It's simple physics. Anyone believing otherwise is a foll, pure and simple.