Home defense, .357 vs. 12 gauge?

[Theohazard]

Just don't try to come here with some internet b.s. to sway your point of view because you think you have it all figured out.

If by "Internet BS" you mean "well-established facts", then sure.

All someone has to do is point that shotgun in the right direction and they are hitting something.
At room distance even an off hit is doing some hurt.

Huh? Have you ever actually fired a shotgun at room distance using defensive ammo? The pattern is a few inches at most. The whole "you don't have to aim a shotgun" thing is yet another myth, and it's a ridiculous one.

What happens when your plan calls for more than one home invader ? Think it's far fetch, look it up. Your typical home invasion now consist of multiple intruders. A shotgun gives you far better odds while still being safe to use in the home environment.

Again, I have to say, "Huh?" One of the advantages a semi-auto rifle has over a shotgun is in engaging multiple attackers. The higher capacity and much lower recoil give it a clear advantage in that situation.

And no matter how many times you repeat it, a shotgun is not "safe to use in the home environment". How many different tests do we have to link before you stop posting this nonsense?

Your .223 will still travel further than any shot shell if you miss.

That's true, but that's only assuming I'm outdoors, and there aren't very many situations where I'd be shooting at someone who was outside my house. Indoors, defensive .223 ammo will travel through building materials far less than buckshot will.

And of a certain age to understand and realize the intenet is 99.9% b.s.

And you're doing an excellent job of adding to that 99.9%.

Tin Foil, it's pretty clear that you don't know very much about this subject. And that's OK; this forum is a great place to learn. But you don't appear to be interested in learning anything, and instead you're arguing with people who are giving you good information.

 

[Dragline45]

It's far to risky you'll miss like missing with a handgun. All someone has to do is point that shotgun in the right direction and they are hitting something.
At room distance even an off hit is doing some hurt.

Have you ever fired a shotgun? It's not like the movies where you just point them in a general direction and you hit what you are aiming at. Buckshot spreads about an inch per yard. In your home you will likely be engaging someone within 25ft which is roughly 8.3yds, which equates to about an 8" spread or even less depending how close they are.

Just don't try to come here with some internet b.s. to sway your point of view because you think you have it all figured out.

You mean like you are doing?

 

[Dragline45]

I realize all that gentleman. (I really do)

I really don't think you do.

I know in the bump of the night my odds of hitting someone with my .38 snubby is even worst than my lottery ticket.

Maybe more training is in order then? Especially since you think you can just point a shogun in a general direction and automatically hit your target.

 

[dpadams6]

I have another thread going about .38 special vs. .44 special for home defense handgun but it keeps popping up that a hand gun is just a stop gap to get you to your shotgun/rifle.

At the same time on other threads I see posts that .357 isn't a good home defense round because it'll give you hearing damage when shot in a small area like a bedroom or hallway.

If that's true why does almost everyone say to use a 12 gauge with various loads instead of a pistol. I have a 1911 .45 and a 16 gauge pump and I know which one is louder, is it the increased velocity on a .357 round or is it all BS?

***Please no "practice is the only thing you need to worry about" responses, I use the 1911 at USPSA events monthly so that's not an issue.

Thanks

In a self defense shooting, you will not remember hearing the gun go off... Imho- is a mute point.

 

[dpadams6]

Both !
The handgun is only used to get you to that shotgun.
But if I could only have one it would be the shotgun.

Forget the noise, that .357 can travel two houses over if you miss and kill your neighbor. But the drywall will stop the average buck-shot. You hear that bump in the night and start blasting away with a handgun, make sure it's not pointed towards your kids bedroom. Provided of course you've have awaken enough to get your barrings, just might shoot yourself.

With lighter hollow points, 357mag does not have a huge amount of penetration7

 

[dpadams6]

Trust me, a 9mm will ring your chimes, as will a 380 or even a 22.
9mm with no hearing pro is pretty loud and sharp.

You will be so full of adrenaline, that you will barely hear it. Look at all the police officer shootings. They do not stop to put protection on.

 

[Dragline45]

In a self defense shooting, you will not remember hearing the gun go off... Imho- is a mute point.

You will be so full of adrenaline, that you will barely hear it. Look at all the police officer shootings. They do not stop to put protection on.

What you are referring to is auditory exclusion, but just because your brain didn't register the shot doesn't mean that it wont damage your hearing. My ENT specifically said that auditory exclusion does absolutely nothing to protect your ears it is 100% mental. So it is absolutely not a moot point, as I posted earlier if I can limit the amount of damage done to my already damaged ears but still use a suitable round I will, which is one of the reasons my bedside gun is a full size 9mm.

 

[dpadams6]

What you are referring to is auditory exclusion, but just because your brain didn't register the shot doesn't mean that it wont damage your hearing. It is absolutely not a moot point, as I posted earlier if I can limit the amount of damage done to my already damage ears but still use a suitable round I will, which is one of the reasons my bedside gun is a full size 9mm.

My life is far more important than my hearing. I'll use what is best for my family's protection.

 

[Dragline45]

My life is far more important than my hearing. I'll use what is best for my family's protection.

No doubt, but I see no reason not to limit the amount of damage you will potentially do to your hearing while still using a suitable caliber. A Glock 17 with 19+1 which is my bedside gun is a far cry from an unsuitable self defense gun, and I still keep a 18.5" 12g shotgun loaded with buckshot a few feet away despite how loud that sucker is. From personal experience I know how punishing the .357 can be to your ears indoors, I have no desire to go through that again if I can help it. I also know what it's like to experience a 9mm indoors with no hearing protection, and it's not even on the same scale as a .357.

As I said in an earlier post, hearing loss and permanent ringing in your ears (tinnitus) can vastly effect your quality of life. Don't take it for granted.

 

[manta49]

I also know what it's like to experience a 9mm indoors with no hearing protection, and it's not even on the same scale as a .357.

Did it permanently affect your hearing. ? As I said before if you are in a life threatening situation in your own house, the noise of whatever firearm you use will be the last of your concerns.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Dear Readers:

I have deleted a slew of posts that were obviously trolling.

NO need to continue to debate these. The poster was appropriately dealt with.

 

[Brit]

A little reality to 223 fired indoors! I had a Steyr AUG, with the Mil Spec firing pin. (I used to work for Steyr)

As I was having some extractor problems, for some reason, I was dropping the bolt, to watch the extractor claw lock onto a cartridge, one that was already in the chamber? Stupid? Even with out the piston!!!!!! No excuse.

The mil spec round went through my bed, hit the tile underneath, blew it to bits, the pieces cut the long bedroom curtain like a knife! This was a Canadian IVI round. Under the tile was concrete, an apartment. Only tiny bits of copper I found, it blew up.

My ears rang till I went to sleep. Next morning, fine, I was lucky.

It was LOUD!

 

[Vacavillains]

Thanks!

Some good info, thanks everyone!

Just wanted to provide info for one commen question:

I have a 12 Pump in room and my 1911 is my bedside quick access gun. As I brought up in another post, my wife prefers hers to be a wheel gun and that's where the .357 came up.

The decibel information was great, I hadn't seen that before.

Not sure how I feel about being "dealt with", but yes my question was answered so trolls can go home.

Thanks.

 

[MarkCO]

Most of the articles we read in the gun rags are marketing. Gun writers, like politicians create problems then concoct solutions for $. People read the gunrags for entertainment for the most part. The writers need to create discussion and buzz about products to get the advertising dollars and the guns to write about.

Here is an article (in a gun rag) that gives Kyle Lamb's answers on the subject of a HD weapon: http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/26/the-ar-for-home-defense-one-experts-opinion/

Some may discount Lamb, but I have always found him to be honest about his opinions which are not based on the monetary gain like many of the other "popular" guys with their runway appearances, TV shows and books.

There is an adage about the pistol is used to fight your way to a long gun, however it appears many take that out of context. The pistol is a defensive weapon, not an offensive weapon. By its very nature, the pistol is what most people will carry concealed...out in public. The opportunity to fight your way to a long gun may not exist for a CCW holder, but in the house at 2am...what do you pick up? It is going to be the most powerful or what you are the most comfortable with? Is a shotgun more effective at stopping a higher percentage of 100 different scenarios than a handgun or an AR? Maybe. Lamb's last answer, to me is the take-away.

I shoot a good bit in a variety of circumstances...hunting, 3Gun, USPSA, training with SWAT officers and snipers. When I get to choose which firearm to shoot targets with at a 3Gun match, I choose the one that gives me the best chance of hitting as many targets on the first shot in the shortest amount of time...more often than not, the pistol wins over the shotgun and the AR wins over the pistol. I am also more comfortable with the AR all things considered and it offers greater range and number of rounds. A pistol is more concealable if i were to end up outside, or at a door with an unknown person outside. Slugs to body armor will deliver more energy and a greater chance of injury or incapacitation than a handgun. It is all trade-offs and the debate will not ever be settled. Choose wisely based on facts, skill level, your situation and hope it never gets tested. If you can add an option to first choice, sure, do so. But whatever you choose, take a class, shoot competition and practice as often as you can. Proficiency with one gun is better than 50 guns you have never shot!

 

[Dragline45]

Did it permanently affect your hearing. ?

The .357 round did, my left ear rings to this day and I suffer from high frequency hearing loss. Although the 9mm had no lasting effects, I had a hearing test a couple months after and compared to the year prior there was no difference.

As I said before if you are in a life threatening situation in your own house, the noise of whatever firearm you use will be the last of your concerns.

That's besides the point. Sure at that time you wont be thinking about how loud the gun will be, but that doesn't mean you cant take precautions so that when/if you do need to use a gun in your home you can mitigate the amount of damage done. As I said before, this is the reasons I no longer use a .357 for home defense or carry, and one of the reasons I use a full size 9mm as my bedside gun.

 

[Tinbucket]

Home Defense

Don't depend on any round not penetrating the whole of the house, the way they are thrown together these days.
Way our home is laid out, wouldn't hit any other bedroom. Lose a tv and refrigerator maybe.
I though considerable about this and reinforcing walls, if I built the home or had it built again.
Couple sheets of 1in thick plywood , extra on interior walls will stop hollow points in 38 and buck except steel buck maybe.
There is probably a study somewhere, on this subject.
Brick interior or poured concrete walls would seem the best.
Poured walls are a big thing in some areas.
Handling a shotgun, while in bed or around the furniture isn't the greatest idea.
I think a handgun you are proficient with, and hollow points, will be a better idea.
The .22 perhaps too. Just about anybody gets shot is going to be less of a threat or dead.
Right at the moment I would go with the .38 or 9mm or any of the guns in the house, with hollow points.
Hit a man in the arm with a .357 hollow point he loses the arm. The 38 just about as much depending on velocity and bullet weight.
Hit anyone, in the torso ,with .357 or any other, with hollow points, chances, of survival are slim and he goes down now. imo

 

[Dragline45]

Hit a man in the arm with a .357 hollow point he loses the arm. The 38 just about as much depending on velocity and bullet weight.
Hit anyone, in the torso ,with .357 or any other, with hollow points, chances, of survival are slim and he goes down now. imo

You will not lose an arm if shot by a .357....

Getting gut shot with a .357 will not automatically kill you or even drop someone like you see in the movies...

Despite the myths, the .357 is not a magic bullet by any means, and compared to rifle rounds it's marginal at best. It will not drop a man with one shot, and will not crack the engine block of a Chevy.

There are stories of people taking cylinders full of .357 to the chest or stomach and lived to tell about it.

 

[Theohazard]

Not sure how I feel about being "dealt with", but yes my question was answered so trolls can go home.

He wasn't referring to you, he was referring to the person who was trolling.

 

[Dragline45]

Deleted

 

[bandaid1]

OP- Every houses layout is different, so that's something that I will not comment about since I can't see yours. With the choices you listed (a 1911 or pump shotgun) and if I could only take one(otherwise I take both), it would be the Shotgun. A handgun will work, but a shotgun will work better. I also have a shotgun and a few 1911's and 357's and 9mm and 38's.... with the layout of my home and where my loved ones are, my shotgun makes the best choice, in fact I could probably use a rifle.

All guns are loud. I don't worry about such things if my life or family is in jeopardy. In a life or death encounter, I hope I live long enough to bitch about the ringing in my ears.