Higher end 1911's

[Aguila Blanca]

I've owned Baers for over 15 years and have seriously never heard that even once. 500 rounds, for people that actually shoot, is one or two days at the range. I think you're confusing Les Baer with Kimber.

No, I am not confusing Les Baer with Kimber.

500 rounds may be one or two days at the range for you, but for many people it's at least five trips to the range. For me, a trip to the range means 45 minutes of driving and 25 miles, each way, plus range fees. Regardless of how many trips, at current ammo prices even for Winchester USA it's roughly $200 out of the buyer's pocket to do the final fitting/lapping that Les Baer should be doing before the gun leaves his shop.

I can find four people who have never had a malfunction with a new Colt (in fact, I have had four new Colts with no malfunctions), but that doesn't mean I get to discount other people who HAVE encountered malfunctions with new Colts. And it doesn't mean you get to dismiss all the reports of malfunctions with new Les Baer pistols as Internet myths.

 

[1stmar]

Not defending les baer, as I too have ears he can be cantankerous, though personally I've never experienced it. Only spoke to him once. I've heard the same about Ed brown and actually have seen some video of it. I was an Ed brown fan till I saw the video. Believe it was from a shot show.

 

[Evan Thomas]

I have deleted several posts and edited several others, in an effort to save an otherwise interesting thread.

The ad hominem attacks, troll-calling, bickering, and all references to the foregoing will cease now, or there will be consequences. I'll be annoyed if the time I've spent cleaning up this thread turns out to have been wasted.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Ed Brown. It's right in your price range, and is a fantastic pistol. The Ed Brown models are essentially the same and are primarily just thematic variations.

I have yet to meet a friend or other person that does not absolutely love shooting my Kobra and they all wish they had one.

 

[CDW4ME]

As stated on page 2, my Baer UTC was so tight I expected malfunctions, but that didn't happen; skeptical, I still didn't trust it for carry till after about 700 rounds.

Being tight (hard fit) is a selling point for Baer.
I find it odd that someone would consider spending $1,800+ for a pistol yet balk at the idea of shooting it 500 rounds to ensure reliability, "break-in".
45 acp 230 gr. FMJ brass case can be found for $13.50 box of 50.
https://www.outdoorlimited.com/CCI-Blazer-Brass-45-Auto-230-gr-FMJ-50-per-box-p/cci5230.htm
$135 + $15 shipping (approximate) is about $150 for 500 rounds.

Kimber and Kahr also have a recommended "break-in" so its not just Baer.

A recommended "break-in" doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me, but I'll run 200-300 rounds through a new Glock.
I can't imagine shooting 50 rounds through a new pistol and call it GTG.

 

[WVsig]

If you want the ultimate in fit and finish, buy a Cabot. They are "production" pistols that are fitted tighter than most custom pistols but, because they are production, you could go into their final assembly room and pick and slide and any frame at random, and the fit would be perfect. I've done it -- I was astonished. The finish on the parts was so smooth that the slide glided like it was running on oil, but the parts were absolutely bone dry.

http://cabotgun.com/better-than-custom-1911-pistols/

If you believe this then you have never seen, held, inspected or shot a 1911 from the likes of Ted Yost, Jim Garthwaite, John Harrison Ned Christiansan, Jason Burton or Don Williams to name a few. These guys are true bespoke pistol masters making functional works of art. IMHO

I am not knocking Cabots. They make great guns but personally I find their aesthetics off putting. I hate their logo and their slide serrations. For me there is just too much flash. It is totally subjective but if I am spending 5,000+ on 1911 every aspect of it is going to be subjective. LOL

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I find it odd that someone would consider spending $1,800+ for a pistol yet balk at the idea of shooting it 500 rounds to ensure reliability, "break-in".

I wondered when someone would bring this up. There is a difference between proving reliability, and "breaking in."

Since we've been talking about 500 rounds, let's stay with that even though some people think 300 rounds with no stoppages is enough to prove reliability, and others think that needs at least 1,000 rounds with no stoppages. That's different from when Les Baer won't talk to owners about stoppages unless they have fired at least 500 rounds to "break in" the pistol.

I think early in this thread someone mentioned having fired 450 rounds before the pistol started to run reliably. So up to that point it was NOT reliable. Firing 500 stoppage-free rounds, then only begins AFTER the last stoppage. If someone is unfortunate enough to still have problems after 500 rounds and Les Baer condescends to take the gun back and fix it (again, with the owner paying for shipping), the owner has already spent the money for those 500 (or more) rounds without achieving reliability. Then he gets to start over with another 500 rounds to (hopefully) prove reliability after the gun comes back from the repair shop.

IMHO the required "break-in" rounds should be factored into the cost of the pistol, because they are performing a task that Les baer should be doing. Then the 500 rounds to prove reliability are on the owner.

 

[1stmar]

IMO, There is no number of rounds you can fire and state with 100% confidence said pistol will perform flawlessly. For reference, I had a custom built pistol built several decades ago for uspsa competition. The year before I had been to my first nationals, I wanted to return with 2 pistols should one have a failure. I put thousands of flawless practice rounds (no breakin) through my second pistol to ensure its reliability, accuracy etc. so many rounds that it became my primary.

i had 4 stages where that same gun had jams. Haven't had a problem since. Who knows what it was, maybe stress, maybe gun.. Not sure and not relevant.

The point is Murphy's law, stuff happens and you better be prepared to deal with it.

There is no magic number of reliable rounds.

 

[Rinspeed]

IMHO the required "break-in" rounds should be factored into the cost of the pistol, because they are performing a task that Les baer should be doing.

....But as I mentioned before there is no required break in period with Les Baer 1911s, several others have said the very same thing in this thread. The vast majority of them are 100% reliable from the very first round. My TRS has had one FTF in 2500 rounds right around the 800th shot.

They are very tight when new and I know that build philosophy is not for everyone. Myself, as long as it's reliable, a tight pistol is desirable. I've heard several people say, over the years, the Baer 1911s are built way too tight. In my experience the only ones that are too tight are the safe queens. Just my opinion of course. We don't all have to agree, and again if I was out of line in a couple of my posts I apologize.

 

[Rogervzv]

I've really thought I've pointed this out a couple times in this thread but you just don't seem to get it. Hopefully for the LAST TIME: Les Baer, when they specify the dimensions on their frames and slides they decide to leave more material on them both. That way when they come in they hand fit them with files. The Baer parts are made on similar, if not BETTER, CNC machining centers.

DW just simply has decided not to remove material by hand and just put them together as is. Again Dan Wesson does not have some magic "CNC machine processes' " Sure it's more expensive to hand fit them but how many other 1911 manufacturers will guarantee a 1.5" group at 50 yards. Just as another note DW has had a bunch of problems with their frames and slides galling up because they are not "hand" fitted and of course both are SS.

Yes, you have made these statements. And I have pointed out that they are untrue.

Baer does not use modern CNC techniques because they RELY on hand-fitting.

As far as DW "galling" goes, I own two Dan Wesson stainless 1911s and neither has any such issue. If some did in the past, modern statistical quality control would have identified the problem and DW would have taken corrective action. My two recent-purchase Dans show no such issue after thousands of rounds.

I will add that just from an aesthetic standpoint, both Colt and Dan Wessons have a nicer fit-and-finish than the Baers.

Dan Wesson PM-7 .45. No Baer can match it in terms of finish. As for shooting, it will hold its own or better with a Baer.



Colt National Match Gold Cup. It will easily shoot as well as a Baer for a grand less if you can find one at all. Fit and finish from an appearance standpoint are nicer than a Baer.

 

[Rinspeed]

I will add that just from an aesthetic standpoint, both Colt and Dan Wessons have a nicer fit-and-finish than the Baers.

Both of those are very good looking 1911s, shoot them in the best of health my friend.

 

[BigJimP]

Purely based on my own experience...I have had / or still have 1911's from Wilson, Ed Brown, Les Baer and Kimber....some of my buddies have 1911's from Cabot, Nighthawk and Springfield... and I have fired them all from time to time.

Personally in terms of fit and finish ...I rank Wilson and Ed Brown #1 and #2 but they are very close... #3 in my view is Cabot ..and then there is a drop off in my view ..to Nighthawk...and another drop off to Les Baer...and then Springfield, Kimber, etc...

My one Les Baer a 5" Monolith model in 9mm..took at least 1,000 rds before it would run reliably. I had similar issues with a Kimber Gold Combat stainless II model in .45 acp.... / my buddies had break in issues with the Cabot and the NIghthawks ...and all of the Springfield, Kimbers, etc..

I had no break in issues with my Wilson's both 5" guns ( CQB in .45 acp or Protector in 9mm ) or Ed Brown 5" Kobra Carry in .45 acp.../ I ran them thru a break in period per mfg's recommendations - but they never failed.

In terms of reliability ...my personal experience is Wilson makes a very solid gun ....and while I have retired my CQB in .45 acp from carry ( because of my increasing arthritis ) -- I am now carrying the Protector 5" in 9mm and I train weekly with the Protector - its coming up on 11 yrs old in a few months and about 200,000 rds now..but its still as solid as the day it was new.

The CQB .. http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=87077&d=1360863612

my Les Baer http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85774&d=1357338883 .. which was never reliable enough for me to consider it as a carry weapon. It was also a disappointment to me in terms of fit and finish.

Wilson Protector model in 9mm... http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=81149&d=1336163670 my primary carry gun now.

----------------
I'm a 1911 guy... in my late 60's now -- and I'm not ever getting away from carrying a 1911. The 2 Wilson's I have ....are 2 of the top 5 guns in my safe today...( and the other 3 in the top 5 that I own , would be a Sig X-Five L-1 model in .40 S&W, a S&W model 27-2 4" revolver, Nickel finish, .357 mag...and a Freedom Arms, 4 3/4" Octagonal barrel, model 83, 5 shot, large frame, single action revolver in .357 Mag...)...all 5 are very nice guns ...but the Wilson are certainly 2 of the top 5....

Ed Brown Kobra carry... probably in 6 - 10 .../ Kimbers maybe in 6 - 15 ...Sig 226's, lots of S&W revolvers in model 19's, 66's, 29's, 629's, 27's, 28's, 627's...are in there as well.

I would encourage to OP to try and find a Wilson Combat 5" gun...and if he wants a .45 acp...its hard to beat one of their basic models like the CQB in my view. There are about 20 CQB's right now on Wilson's website under "in stock" firearms that are between $3,500 and $3K right now - ready to ship tomorrow...as well as other models...

Good luck with your choice on the new gun !

 

[Aguila Blanca]

....But as I mentioned before there is no required break in period with Les Baer 1911s, several others have said the very same thing in this thread.

And, as I and others have commented, when there IS a problem, Les Baer won't discuss it until the owner has put at least 500 rounds through the pistol. That is a de facto required break-in period.

 

[Metric]

I have a question about high-end 1911's that might fit here, but I'll start a new thread if necessary.

I'm curious how they retain their value over, say, a 10-15 year window.

Over the years, I've had a tended to buy "gently used" pistols of a high-end reputation (not counting certain plastic-framed workhorses that have also done well for me in practical use). Reflecting on my experience, many of them have increased noticeably in value over the last ~10-15 years (though I no longer own some of them) as I've shot and used them. This happens to be a nice feature that gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling, for some reason.

However, I also purchased a new Kimber custom royal back in 2000 (my most expensive purchase at that time, when I was just getting started), and it seems to have instead depreciated substantially, judging by some quick gunbroker searches. Of course, a Kimber is not a Wilson or a Brown, but I wonder if some of the same economics are at work -- the 1911 market seems to be subject to fads that command a premium price for a short time, followed by much easier availability later on.

Anyway, it seems like this question should be easily answered by someone with more high-end 1911 experience in the market than I have.

 

[BigJimP]

In my experience... Kimbers, Springfield ..or more common 1911's will depreciate....even if they are out of Kimbers true custom shop ...like their Gold Combat Stainless II model.

Partly because of almost annual price increases...guns from Wilson Combat will appreciate a little over time...even with many thousands of rounds thru them..if they are properly taken care of ...in part because Wilson Combat will guarantee the guns, for the life of the gun, even if they are purchased used.

Case in point...my Wilson CQB is about 15 yrs old, I bought it used, but it was new in box, for about $1,600.... today that gun retails for around $3,000....so its value on used market ( with about 25,000 rds thru it ) is probably between $2,250 and $2,500. My Wilson Protector model, all stainless in 9mm...10 yrs ago was about $ 2,300 ...and today that gun is close to $ 4,000 with the options I have on it ...mag chute, ambi safety,etc...and even with 200,000 rds thru it today its value is probably $ 2,750 - $3,000 ...because it has some handling marks on it with all that range and holster time.

Ed Brown and Cabot will also retain their value and appreciate a little...but I don't recall what their warranty is offhand.

 

[BoogieMan]

Sorry to revive the old thread. But, I am still searching and making considerations. Who produces the finest glass like blued or color case finish?What are the "high end" brands that are available. Below are the ones I know of.
Turnbull
Wilson Combat
Les Bear
Guncrafters
Nighthawk
Ed Brown
Cabot

 

[surveyor]

On my grail list is an olympic arms westerner.
I wouldn't turn any of the others away though.

 

[RickB]

I have an older Springfield custom, excellent pistol. Would recommend highly, not on par with Les Baer but very close.

How much older? Les Baer used to manage the Springfield Custom Shop.

 

[Red-5]

Sorry to revive the old thread. But, I am still searching and making considerations. Who produces the finest glass like blued or color case finish?What are the "high end" brands that are available. Below are the ones I know of.
Turnbull
Wilson Combat
Les Bear
Guncrafters
Nighthawk
Ed Brown
Cabot

If it is the finish you are after, the first name on the list is probably the best.

Wilson used to use Turnbull for some of their finishing when Turnbull Blue was requested.

As far as gun makers, from you list, Wilson, Nighthawk or Guncrafter.

Then you have the Springfield Professional, which is quite a good firearm.

 

[BoogieMan]

If it is the finish you are after, the first name on the list is probably the best.

I have only seen a restoration by Turnbull. Are they building their own 1911's or refinishing someones? I would assume quality and accuracy are on par with the others.