Higher end 1911's

[Rinspeed]

1stmar's observations are consistent with what I am saying. No doubt a hand-fitted handgun can be a very good and accurate handgun. But is is an expensive way to make a gun. Modern CNC manufacturing can make a superb gun (read: as good or better as compared to hand-fitting) at a much lower cost.

I've always liked your posts Roger and agree with you most of the time. On the other hand you really have to stop with this hand fitting vs CNC machining tangent you have been talking about in this thread.

It just solidifies that you don't really know the whole scope of the subject matter at hand. Again, with all do respect, the major parts Baer uses for their 1911s are all produced on very similar "modern" CNC machining centers as the made in Korea parts DW uses. Les Baer has simply chosen to leave more material on and do the final fitting with files. They are very tight when new but just keep getting smoother and smoother the more you shoot them.

Here is a 50 yard test target from my friends Baer UM with 1.5" guarantee at 50 yards. Maybe a DW can produce something similar but I seriously doubt it.


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Rinspeed/BaerUM.jpg

 

[Rogervzv]

I've always liked your posts Roger and agree with you most of the time. On the other hand you really have to stop with this hand fitting vs CNC machining tangent you have been talking about in this thread.

It just solidifies that you don't really know the whole scope of the subject matter at hand. Again, with all do respect, the major parts Baer uses for their 1911s are all produced on very similar "modern" CNC machining centers as the made in Korea parts DW uses. Les Baer has simply chosen to leave more material on and do the final fitting with files. They are very tight when new but just keep getting smoother and smoother the more you shoot them.

I'm actually not sure what you are saying here, my friend. I do know that Baer parts are machined, etc. But my understanding is that no, the process is not a true digitally controlled process, and hand-fitting is accordingly required. And the Baer folks extoll it as a virtue -- which it is, if you want a hand-fitted gun.

Anyway, I've seen plenty of information that supports the above. I did not mean to hijack this thread, but I am not the one who started extolling hand-fitting versus CNC processes. I did respond to it. I've shot a lot of Baers and a lot of other 1911s, and I suppose by now my opinion is obvious enough.

 

[Rinspeed]

I'm actually not sure what you are saying here, my friend. I do know that Baer parts are machined, etc. But my understanding is that no, the process is not a true digitally controlled process, and hand-fitting is accordingly required.

What I'm saying Roger is the Baer parts are produced on very similar or most likely much better machining tools. There's a good chance that your understanding is wrong but you have to consider there are a <lot> of different opinions and we all have them.

 

[JDBerg]

For about $1,450 (Dan Wesson Valor) one can have a new 1911 made with quality small parts (no MIM), night sights.

I paid not quite that much for my own DW Valor, and this can hit my targets better than I can, but I can do pretty well with mine.

I use my 1911's primarily for range & target shooting, although my Ruger SR1911 Commander length is a great carry gun. But I'd like to get a Dan Wesson Pointman 7 (PM-7) for my next pistol, and somebody here has to explain to me how a more expensive "name" 1911 is going to let me hit my targets better than the DW Valor I shoot now or the DW PM-7 that I plan to get

 

[Rogervzv]

What I'm saying Roger is the Baer parts are produced on very similar or most likely much better machining tools. There's a good chance that your understanding is wrong but you have to consider there are a <lot> of different opinions and we all have them.

Well, it sounds to me like that's an opinion, not a statement of fact. If Baer really used state-of-the-art machining, their guns would not be hand-fitted and would not (as they do) require 500 rounds for break in. None of my Colts or Dan Wessons required such break-in.

 

[BoogieMan]

Well, it sounds to me like that's an opinion, not a statement of fact. If Baer really used state-of-the-art machining, their guns would not be hand-fitted and would not (as they do) require 500 rounds for break in. None of my Colts or Dan Wessons required such break-in.

State of the art machining is still machining. Your Colts and DWs are not made as tight as the Baer and therefore do not require hand fitting. Slides and frames are milled. Regardless of how new the machine is, the process is limited in tolerance. Our machines repeat down to .0002. The parts do not over a short production run. Even with SPC and tool wear compensation etc..

 

[Gary Wells]

Very interesting thread. A lot of opinions. Some assumptions.
I own 5 different .45 autos, all 5" except my Jim Hoag 6" long-slide:
1) Wilson Combat Classic Supergrade: OTD in PRK, new, $5020 in 2010, Hand everything, fitting, checkering, action work, great gun, I do not believe that they will shoot 1"@25yds, but I do believe that they will shoot close to that.
2) Springfield Armory Custom Shop Rob Letham TGO1, Beautiful gun, hand everything, checkering fitting, action work, $4100 OTD in PRK in 2014, Slightly over 200 made so far.
3) Ed Brown Exec. Target, $3050 OTD in PRK in 2014, Machine checkering, typical fitting for a limited production gun. considered by a lot of peeps as one of the best looking .45 autos on the market.
4) Les Baer Premier II, $machine checkering, 3"@50yd guarantee, but I'm doubtful the 1.5"@5 yd guarantee gun will shoot quite that.
5) Jim Hoag Mastergrade 6" long-slide: First class custom all the way, built by Hoag in early '70's, everything done by hand, hand checkering, Bar-sto 6" barrel, slide made by Hoag using 2 slides & welding together & re-machining. Everything done in Jim's shop other than the hard-chrome.

Most comfortable grip: Hoag longslide with the Ed Brown a very close 2nd.
Most precision / accurate: Probably the SA CS Rob Letham TGO1
Best trigger: WC Classic SG with Hoag a very close second.
Ed Brown : Probably most attractrive, but not so great trigger, mushy, typical of EB triggers.
sights: all of these guns have good adjustable target sights & it's very hard to distinguish between them.
HTH
I hope that you find what you are looking for.
In the meantime, I would check out everything gun that you can get in your hands.

 

[JJNA]

I am thinking that I would like something in 45 that and off the shelf custom like a Wilson, Browne, Nighthawk, Guncrafters etc... I dont mind buying used as long as condition is VG. Can I get into any of these or other semi-customs around $2k-$2500?

Yes, you can. If you look around on Gun Broker, you can get NIB Wilson Combat or Ed Brown 1911s for about $2500. They won't be Classic Super Grades, but more along the lines of CQB.

At that price range, you can also find higher grades of LNIB Wilson Combat guns, etc.

 

[Model12Win]

I love M1911A1 battle sidearms. Such history, much wow. Very yay handgun.

 

[Rinspeed]

Well, it sounds to me like that's an opinion, not a statement of fact. If Baer really used state-of-the-art machining, their guns would not be hand-fitted and would not (as they do) require 500 rounds for break in. None of my Colts or Dan Wessons required such break-in.

Sorry Roger but your thoughts are very wrong. Les Baer 1911s don't require 500 rounds for break in. The vast majority of them work 100% right out of the box. Not really sure how because they are very tight. Very tight is a good thing as long as they are reliable which the vast majority of them are right out of the box. They come with enough CLP in the bag to last you a couple months.

 

[Jim Watson]

When you start thinking about the Wonders of Modern Machining, consider that the Cabot "clone technology" guns machined and ground for a fully interchangeable slide and receiver cost MORE than their "hand fitted" pistols.

 

[Hunter Customs]

I agree. The fit on Cabot 1911s is superior to anything from any other vendor, whether the vendor is "production," "semi-custom," or "custom." And Cabot guns are all done by CNC. The rails are smoother than any hand fitting can ever produce, and they DON'T need 500 rounds of "break in" before they'll run.

I respectfully disagree with some of the above statement.
I built a lot of custom guns through the years, what I called frame up builds were from after market frames and slides.
The frames and slides were oversized to the point that I had to machine the rails just to get the slides to start on the frames.

When that was done the hand lapping started, I started with 300 grit compound worked my way to 1200 grit compound for the finish and when the lapping process was complete the slide on a bare frame would flow fore and aft under it's own weight.
They were a tight fit and the slide moved like it was on ball bearings, even being a tight fit they did not require a 500 round break in.

My thoughts on the 500 round break in is the gun's not finished and if the gun requires a 500 round break in then the builder of the gun should furnish the ammo.
Here's some food for thought, when truly understanding the 1911 the slide to frame fit contributes a lot less to the mechanical accuracy of the pistol then most people think.

Now as for the cost of top shelf 1911 pistols costing $2500, for a custom builder such as myself the parts would cost me about $1300, the other $1200 would be labor including the finish.
When I'm talking finish I'm talking transparent finishes, true custom finishes that require metal prep such as bluing or hardchrome, not painted finishes anyone can spray paint a gun.

Most of your semi-custom builders have a lot less in parts then a true custom shop will have for the simple reason they are the ones building parts.
So in general their guns should be priced less.

Now if you are talking raceguns, yes the price will be higher then $2500.
First off there will be a higher cost in parts and it takes more time and knowledge to tune a racegun.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter

 

[Rogervzv]

Sorry Roger but your thoughts are very wrong.<snip>Les Baer 1911s don't require 500 rounds for break in. The vast majority of them work 100% right out of the box. Not really sure how because they are very tight. Very tight is a good thing as long as they are reliable which the vast majority of them are right out of the box. They come with enough CLP in the bag to last you a couple months.

Baer recommends a 500 round break-in period. This is not opinion. It is a fact.

I have known Baer owners who confirmed spotty cycling on the guns until break-in. This is not indicative of CNC production. A gun should not need 500 round to break in.

Baers are fine guns, don't get me wrong. Very accurate and well-made. Simply made by a process that is very non-cost-effective, specifically: hand-fitting.

It may even be that hand-fitting yields finer tolerances than CNC machine processes do. But it is a very expensive way to make a gun which is why very few guns are made this way. You pay a lot for that process and it is questionable whether the benefit justifies the cost in any objective way. Now, if it pleases the owner to know that the gun was produced in this way, then it is worth it to that owner, which is basic market economics.

On the 1911 Forum several years ago there was a controlled "shoot out" between various brands of 1911s. The Dan Wessons, along with one or two other high-end CNC production guns, out-shot the Baers. I've tried to find the link and if I do I will post it.

 

[Sevens]

I have to wonder about the experience and/or motivation behind any poster who suggests that Les Baer 1911 pistols need some kind of rigorous break-in period.

Between myself and my two closest gun buddies, the count stands at six Baer pistols. Of that six, three were bought NEW. One of these three was purchased with Baer's upcharged 1.5" guarantee.

ZERO of these six pistols give any feed failures. Only one of these six got any factory ammo, all five others have eaten handloads. I have deep regrets about the Les Baer Boss model that I bought and could not afford to keep. Totally a fiscal situation. My most vivid memory was the way it felt immediately out of the box when new. Lock up in full battery was ridiculous, like nothing I've felt and different (tighter) than the Ed Brown Special Forces I had before it and the Kobra I had around the same time. In feeling the Boss go in to and out of full battery, I also worried that I would experience malfunctions-- NEVER did that happen.

Any single pistol of any brand made by anyone and with any name or price could have a problem, for any number of reasons. But it's either ignorant or obnoxious (or BOTH) to try and spread some total myth that Baer 1911's won't run out of the box. It's false information that thousands of Baer owners will easily attest to if they heard or read such nonsense.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Sorry Roger but your thoughts are very wrong. <snip> Les Baer 1911s don't require 500 rounds for break in.

Then why does Les refuse to even discuss problems if the owner hasn't run at least 500 rounds through the gun to "break it in"?

Roger is ... just raising a point of objection that many, many 1911 people have about Les Baer pistols.

[Edit to add] It's worth noting that there is NO mention of a minimum, mandatory break-in period on Les Baer's web site. However, just Google "les Baer Break-in" and you'll get pages upon pages of links to people who have encountered it. It's not a secret among people who follow 1911s, but it certainly isn't something that Les Baer makes prospective buyers aware of.

Futher, Les Baer does not offer any warranty -- at all. His web site specifically states:

Les Baer Custom, Inc. has elected not to provide any written warranty, either "limited” or "full”, rather than attempt to comply with the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act and the regulations issued thereunder.

Elsewhere on that same page, he states:

As long as customer abuse has not created a problem, we will probably repair your custom pistol or rifle free of charge.

In other words, "We'll repair it is we feel like it -- or not." Which means that, in the end, there is no way for a prospective customer to know in advance whether or not a problem with his pistol will be repaired. Even if Baer agrees to take a pistol back for repair, the buyer is on the hook for shipping costs. Even lowly Rock Island pays to have a defective pistol returned for warranty service.

 

[Tibult]

The only high end 1911 I am interested in is Colt Gold Cup National Match.

 

[Sevens]

Les Baer is also well known as cantankerous with customer service and if we wish to pile on... his basic blued finish is cheap and nowhere in the hemisphere of durable. But the pistols are built well, run great and are accurate. YMMV.

 

[Rinspeed]

It may even be that hand-fitting yields finer tolerances than CNC machine processes do. But it is a very expensive way to make a gun which is why very few guns are made this way.

I've really thought I've pointed this out a couple times in this thread but you just don't seem to get it. Hopefully for the LAST TIME: Les Baer, when they specify the dimensions on their frames and slides they decide to leave more material on them both. That way when they come in they hand fit them with files. The Baer parts are made on similar, if not BETTER, CNC machining centers.

DW just simply has decided not to remove material by hand and just put them together as is. Again Dan Wesson does not have some magic "CNC machine processes' " Sure it's more expensive to hand fit them but how many other 1911 manufacturers will guarantee a 1.5" group at 50 yards. Just as another note DW has had a bunch of problems with their frames and slides galling up because they are not "hand" fitted and of course both are SS.

 

[Rinspeed]

Then why does Les refuse to even discuss problems if the owner hasn't run at least 500 rounds through the gun to "break it in"?

I've owned Baers for over 15 years and have seriously never heard that even once. 500 rounds, for people that actually shoot, is one or two days at the range. I think you're confusing Les Baer with Kimber.

 

[Sevens]

Ruger offers exactly the same warranty (or absence of one) and mentions it in nearly the the exact same manner.