Higher end 1911's

New high end 1911's that can be had for $2,500 or less.
Ed Brown Alpha Elite http://www.gunbroker.com/item/611823140
Ed Brown Special Forces http://www.gunbroker.com/item/611724514
Les Baer UTC http://www.gunbroker.com/item/609158121
Les Baer Custom Carry http://www.gunbroker.com/item/610822956
Dan Wesson Valor http://www.gunbroker.com/item/611287707

For about $1,450 (Valor) one can have a new 1911 made with quality small parts (no MIM), night sights.
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Dan Wesson makes a nice production line gun but they aren't 'high end". The hand work and attention to fit, finish, etc., aren't anywhere near what Baers, Browns, Wilsons, Nighthawk, GI, etc., receive.


I guess the industry standard term is semi-custom, but IMHO that's just as meaningless as the term "match grade barrel." These days it seems every $300 1911 claims to have a "match grade" barrel, but there is no industry standard for "match grade" so the term is just marketing hype.

The same applies to "semi-custom." It's like "pregnant" -- either someone is pregnant, or she's not. If a firearm is custom, it's custom -- one of a kind.. If it's not custom, it's production. Car manufacturers try to discourage it (and dealers try even harder to discourage it), but you can still order American cars optioned out to your exact choice -- as long as you choose options listed in the catalog. But even if you special order your dream-mobile, with exactly the color and option packages you and only you want, so your car is unique among all other vehicles of that brand -- it's not "custom," and it's not even "semi-custom." It's still a Ford or a Chevy or a Chrysler that rolled off the same production line as all other vehicles of that make and model.

I'm not trying to "redefine" what they call themselves, but I suppose I am trying to better define what they actually are.
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Aguila Blanca - I agree with your definition and explanation 100% and have often used the same automobile analogy myself.


Nice way to sum it up Jim. I am aware of the marketing hype with all manufacturers. I called this a off the shelf custom because they do. I thought that would simplify the discussion. I received a PM with some info about a Wilson dealer semi-local. I am going to go check out what they have on the used market. I am really looking for the fit of the frame, slide, barrel and link. After that it's pretty much bolt on. Change beaver tail or MS housing is a matter of ordering to taste and a few minutes of install. Also, I'm not sure I could define exactly what I want "off the cuff". But I will know when I see it.
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BoogieMan - You can find plenty new of Baers and Browns, and occasionally Guncrafters in your price range, but the used market is where you find deals on these guns. Last year I bought a NIB Baer Boss, a gently used Brown Executive Elite, and a lightly used Baer Custom Carry, and paid well under $2k for each of them. You just need to keep an eye on your local market, gunbroker, and some of the dedicated 1911 forums. I have custom 1911s also but some of the "semi-custom" guns can be real bargains if you're not looking to have something spec'd out specifically for you. As you go forward, though, you should keep in mind that few things other than grips are "bolt on" in the 1911 world, particularly with guns fitted as well as the ones you're talking about.
 
Dan Wesson makes a nice production line gun but they aren't 'high end". The hand work and attention to fit, finish, etc., aren't anywhere near what Baers, Browns, Wilsons, Nighthawk, GI, etc., receive.
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I don't agree at all. I have compared a Dan Wesson PM-7 to various Baer .45s (haven't had a chance to do that with Nighthawk or Wilson) and frankly, I thought that the fit and finish on the Dan was better. Reliability was better too. Baers tend to jam until you've put a thousand rounds or so through them. The Dan Wessons are reliable right out of the box due to the precision with which they are manufactured. By analogy, a hand-made table or rocking chair may have more charm, but a CNC manufactured one will be made better and cheaper. That's why you don't see much hand-made furniture (or much else) these days.

The real difference between Baers and Dan Wessons is the manufacturing process. Baers are hand-fitted "by a member of the Baer family." Dan Wessons are manufactured by means of state-of-the-art CNC machinery which allows for very fine tolerances in a production process not requiring much or usually any hand-fitting. This allows the cost of the Dan Wesson to be much less for what appears to me to be a better gun. Digital manufacturing processes make for greater precision than can be realized by expensive hand-fitting (which is 19th Century manufacturing technique.)

In terms of accuracy, Dan Wessons are about as good as any. It may (or may not) be true that expensive hand-fitted guns will shoot a tighter group than a high-end CNC-made gun such as a Dan Wesson, if the guns are compared on a fixed rest, eliminating human error. But any difference is likely marginal. I've shot both and I certainly couldn't tell much or any difference.
 
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Rogervzv;

Absolutely disagree with your statement with regard to a Baer needing 1000 rounds before it shoots reliably. In my experience with three different Baers (Thunder Ranch, PII and Monolith) this was not even close to the truth.

All of them fed and fired every single round with no failures from the first shot. I've since put thousands of rounds through them with nary a problem.

I believe most really good 1911's are hand fitted. State of the Art CNC is meaningless as all high production guns (read cheap) are done by CNC.
 
State of the Art CNC is meaningless as all high production guns (read cheap) are done by CNC.
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Just because all high production guns might be CNC manufactured doesn't render the process "meaningless". "State of the Art CNC" is very meaningful in the sense that you can purchase moderately priced firearms today that approach, if not exceed, the close tolerances that not long ago only expensive (read conspicuous consumption), hand-labor could deliver.
 
Baers tend to jam until you've put a thousand rounds or so through them. The Dan Wessons are reliable right out of the box due to the precision with which they are manufactured.
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I've had the exact opposite experience. My Baers have been trouble free from day one, zero malfunctions. My Dan Wesson PM-9, on the other hand, locked up tight at less than 50 rds. The slide was stuck half way back. It apparently suffered from Dan Wesson's well documented galling issue.
My Dan Wesson was also the least accurate 1911 I've owned.

Jim
 
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Rogervzv said:
Baers tend to jam until you've put a thousand rounds or so through them. The Dan Wessons are reliable right out of the box due to the precision with which they are manufactured.

The real difference between Baers and Dan Wessons is the manufacturing process. Baers are hand-fitted "by a member of the Baer family." Dan Wessons are manufactured by means of state-of-the-art CNC machinery which allows for very fine tolerances in a production process not requiring much or usually any hand-fitting.
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Do you think the frames/slides Baer uses are machined on a 60 year Bridgeport. :confused:
 
laytonj1 said:
My Dan Wesson PM-9, on the other hand, locked up tight at less than 50 rds. The slide was stuck half way back. It apparently suffered from Dan Wesson's well documented galling issue.
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For a couple years there a DW that was locked up tight from galling was a weekly thread on some of the forums, a simple search will confirm this. Probably a good reason why Baer doesn't offer their 1.5" at 50 yard guarantee with any of the SS models.
 
I've had the exact opposite experience. My Baers have been trouble free from day one, zero malfunctions. My Dan Wesson PM-9, on the other hand, locked up tight at less than 50 rds. The slide was stuck half way back. It apparently suffered from Dan Wesson's well documented galling issue.
My Dan Wesson was also the least accurate 1911 I've owned.
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Well, as long as we are all chiming in, I own not one but two Dan Wesson PM-7 .45s. Both were flawless out of the box and to my recollection neither has ever jammed. In a shoot out my Dans will outperform any Baer I've had good natured contests with at the range. I don't, by the way, claim that to be a scientifically valid test. But my Dans are remarkably accurate. I will say that I know nothing of the PM-9.

Every Baer owner I have ever spoken with told me that their Baer gun absolutely needed breaking in, and many or most reported that the slides were so tight when new that they could barely rack the slide, let alone depend on the gun to cycle reliably. I've heard this from enough people that I believe it. My Dans, by contrast, functioned perfectly right out of the box.

Hand-fitting may sound like a good idea, but modern digital manufacturing techniques will generally produce a superior product.
 
Well, as long as we are all chiming in, I own not one but two Dan Wesson PM-7 .45s. Both were flawless out of the box and to my recollection neither has ever jammed. In a shoot out my Dans will outperform any Baer I've had good natured contests with at the range. I don't, by the way, claim that to be a scientifically valid test. But my Dans are remarkably accurate. I will say that I know nothing of the PM-9.

Every Baer owner I have ever spoken with told me that their Baer gun absolutely needed breaking in, and many or most reported that the slides were so tight when new that they could barely rack the slide, let alone depend on the gun to cycle reliably. I've heard this from enough people that I believe it. My Dans, by contrast, functioned perfectly right out of the box.

Hand-fitting may sound like a good idea, but modern digital manufacturing techniques will generally produce a superior product.
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I didn't say that Dan Wesson's weren't good guns, certainly they are some of the better production line 1911s available but production line guns none the less. And, as such, DWs simply do not receive the hand fitting and attention that sets the higher end "semi custom" pistols apart. Baer's guns are essentially hand built, with practically every part being hand fitted to each individual gun. That is the kind of attention to detail that most of us are looking for when we're shopping higher end guns. My Baer Boss locks up tight as a vault, is probably the most accurate 1911 I've owned, and in spite of that it has run without failure from the first round out of the box, that's the result of individuals making sure that parts fit precisely as opposed to relying on machined tolerances. That is one of the main things that sets the Baers, Browns, Wilsons, Nighthawks, etc, apart from higher production/lower cost manufacturers - time spent fitting and finishing each gun. If that is important to you then they're worth the cost.
 
If you want the ultimate in fit and finish, buy a Cabot. They are "production" pistols that are fitted tighter than most custom pistols but, because they are production, you could go into their final assembly room and pick and slide and any frame at random, and the fit would be perfect. I've done it -- I was astonished. The finish on the parts was so smooth that the slide glided like it was running on oil, but the parts were absolutely bone dry.

http://cabotgun.com/better-than-custom-1911-pistols/
 
My pistols, my grouping

Dan Wesson makes a nice production line gun but they aren't 'high end". The hand work and attention to fit, finish, etc., aren't anywhere near what Baers, Browns, Wilsons, Nighthawk, GI, etc., receive.
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I put Dan Wesson with Baer and Brown based on quality small parts, no MIM.
I've got all three and all are quality, fit, finish, ect...
Baer absolutely the tightest; expected malfunction from it, was happily disappointed.
 
Every Baer owner I have ever spoken with told me that their Baer gun absolutely needed breaking in, and many or most reported that the slides were so tight when new that they could barely rack the slide, let alone depend on the gun to cycle reliably. I've heard this from enough people that I believe it. My Dans, by contrast, functioned perfectly right out of the box.
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I want a gun that has to be broken in. That is kind of the point of a custom gun. If this were a carry gun then I would want something that is loose and reliable out of the box. As a machine shop owner with high end CNC mills (just like every gun manufacturer uses) I can tell you that a milled finish will never be smooth enough to be both tight and reliable without a finishing process such as lapping into place. To a lesser extent Kimber does the same thing (at least in Target n models) with there slide to frame fit. Break in required.
 
.... Baer's guns are essentially hand built, with practically every part being hand fitted to each individual gun. That is the kind of attention to detail that most of us are looking for when we're shopping higher end guns .... That is one of the main things that sets the Baers, Browns, Wilsons, Nighthawks, etc, apart from higher production/lower cost manufacturers - time spent fitting and finishing each gun. If that is important to you then they're worth the cost.
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Well, the last sentence here is absolutely true. If hand-fitting is important enough to the buyer, for whatever reason, then it is worth the cost. Basic free market economics.

All I am saying is that logic and experience indicates that hand-fitting does not particularly yield either a more reliable or a more accurate firearm than modern CNC machining techniques. To the contrary, if Baer guns are built in a way that requires hand-fitting after manufacturing, that causes me to wonder why. YMMV.
 
Rogervzv said:
All I am saying is that logic and experience indicates that hand-fitting does not particularly yield either a more reliable or a more accurate firearm than modern CNC machining techniques. To the contrary, if Baer guns are built in a way that requires hand-fitting after manufacturing, that causes me to wonder why. YMMV.
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I agree. The fit on Cabot 1911s is superior to anything from any other vendor, whether the vendor is "production," "semi-custom," or "custom." And Cabot guns are all done by CNC. The rails are smoother than any hand fitting can ever produce, and they DON'T need 500 rounds of "break in" before they'll run.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
I agree. The fit on Cabot 1911s is superior to anything from any other vendor, whether the vendor is "production," "semi-custom," or "custom." And Cabot guns are all done by CNC.
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Pretty bold statement, especially seeing the last couple of pics I've seen of them it looked like the grip safety wasn't fit any better than most run of the mill $2k 1911s.
 
I purchased most of my 1911s back in the 80s and early 90s. I have 2 baers (pii and prowler Iv) , a Springfield custom, a truly custom gun built by behlert precision (who at the time was an excellent pistol smith) , a custom para built on a gs frame, and a few others. My point is I have pistols that run the gamut from semi custom to completely hand built by both very well know gun smith and lesser know. Gunsmith. The difference between the baers and the behlert is negligible and honestly the Baer is probably a bit better with the exception of the finish, slide to frame fit and trigger. I've never had a malfunction of any kind w the baers. I would never diminish Austin behlert but I did have to send it back once and it has malfunctioned. Custom guns have come along way since the 80s but don't assume perfection and the difference between a $2000 Baer and $4000 Cabot/Wilson/guncrafter/nighthawk etc is probably not $1500-$2000 worthy. Much is name and negligible. You want to spend $5-$10k you'll probably see a difference but were it me, that's an heirloom. I don't need to spend that for an edc or competition/range gun.
 
1stmar's observations are consistent with what I am saying. No doubt a hand-fitted handgun can be a very good and accurate handgun. But is is an expensive way to make a gun. Modern CNC manufacturing can make a superb gun (read: as good or better as compared to hand-fitting) at a much lower cost.
 
Many valid posts in this thread, I think they all center around what you want it for. If it's an accurate reliable target/range/completion pistol you won't need to spend more that $1500-2k. If you WANT a Wilson super grade Cruz it says Wilson, perfectly ok and many do.
 
They are a little out of my $ budget. But, has anyone seen a Jesse James 1911. They look fantastic IMO. Jesse talks a good story but I have never had the chance to really inspect any of his work.
 
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