OldMarksman
Staff
One more time: the defense of justification may not involve self defense.
High round counts for civilians
- Thread starter OhioGuy
- Start date
I am not the one making up scenarios. I never said "Shoot across Wal-mart" You did. Wal-mart's here are about 200 yards across(or more). We do all not live and work in the same situations.
Ok, lets play your game. Lets say I shoot someone late night in a Wal-mart from 51.3 yards in lawful self defense of a third party. The only one injured is the BG. What crime am I going to trial for? Name the statute.
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zincwarrior
New member
Other instances are materially insignificant to a CC holder.
OldMarksman
Staff
If by that you man something like "other kinds of cases rarely occur for civilians", that is completely irrelevant to the validity of a defense of justification.
OldMarksman
Staff
What does it have to do with the validity of a defense of justification?
zincwarrior
New member
Ah, now I see. When I say self defense - that's covered under the self defense statutes, it's defense of yourself or others typically for reasonable fear of death or some level of harm. This also typically includes preventing a rape or kidnapping, but may include other actions. Now some jurisdictions permit lethal force in defense of property which may be covered under other statutes (in Texas it is covered by the same statute).
In Texas, coming to the defense of a police officer would fall under the self defense statutes. I am not aware of any other statute permitting lethal force by a non deputized citizen (now the wife says there is a "he needed Killin your honor" provision for annoyed wives...)
Apologies if I was unclear earlier.
In Texas, coming to the defense of a police officer would fall under the self defense statutes. I am not aware of any other statute permitting lethal force by a non deputized citizen (now the wife says there is a "he needed Killin your honor" provision for annoyed wives...)
Apologies if I was unclear earlier.
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It appears that there is miles, pages, of excuses to as we say in Lancashire UK "For duin newt!" Translation, Doing nothing.
Panic over Jury's, Police, and Prosecutors, et al.
Keyboard Commandoes live on this stuff, to each his own.
I as a person, even at my age, am more likely to break a nose or jaw, done it, been there, got the damaged knuckles to show for it.
But without being melodramatic, just me involved "Legging it, might be an option" My Wife in danger, caused by some other person. May God have mercy on him. Now we have little munchkins, wee Grandkids, as well as others in their twenties! Four of them, the oldest, 7 YOA. Now under Grandads mantle.
Panic over Jury's, Police, and Prosecutors, et al.
Keyboard Commandoes live on this stuff, to each his own.
I as a person, even at my age, am more likely to break a nose or jaw, done it, been there, got the damaged knuckles to show for it.
But without being melodramatic, just me involved "Legging it, might be an option" My Wife in danger, caused by some other person. May God have mercy on him. Now we have little munchkins, wee Grandkids, as well as others in their twenties! Four of them, the oldest, 7 YOA. Now under Grandads mantle.
zincwarrior
New member
Very true, although in my case they would be the ones legging it because I can't even walk fast at this point.
That is also why I freely admit I would not do anything unless it involved protecting the family. No one is going to pay my family's bills if I am hurt, in jail, or sued for getting involved in someone else's matter. Absent a direct threat to the family (or children) I'd follow the mantra of "be a good witness."
OldMarksman
Staff
While there are a few specific additions in my case, that is also my philosophy.
I do have the NRA Insurance. Complete with the heavy plastic card. First, call to them.
It is very disquieting, that we have so many people, who are here, illegally! We have no idea, who they are, or where they are from!
Take me, my birth is recorded, and every stage of my life is, as well. In files, books, ledgers. Birth certificates, Passports, etc/etc! Military and School records, work-related documents!
To this last week, I shot my G lic. requal, fingerprints, scores recorded, written scores.
Our new residents from Iraq? Nothing, nothing legal anyway!
It is very disquieting, that we have so many people, who are here, illegally! We have no idea, who they are, or where they are from!
Take me, my birth is recorded, and every stage of my life is, as well. In files, books, ledgers. Birth certificates, Passports, etc/etc! Military and School records, work-related documents!
To this last week, I shot my G lic. requal, fingerprints, scores recorded, written scores.
Our new residents from Iraq? Nothing, nothing legal anyway!
I failed to pick up on this false dichotomy earlier. There are plenty of examples where the police fired way more than six rounds without chasing or trying to arrest an attacker. Recently during the Scalise shooting the police had to fire more than 40 rounds to kill the attacker.
That is just a recent example, there are hundreds of other cases.
I should also note that when the police are shooting at someone they are not attempting to arrest them. They are attempting to stop a threat, the same as anyone else.
I couldnt get the link to work in the above post. If I'm not mistaken , old Bat Masterson wrote about "Ten shots quick", glorifying the new semi auto pistols, for Savage, in return for compensation. I doubt if a fight broke out, and Bat had a choice, he would have chosen a small .32 or .380 ACP semi auto over a .45 Long Colt Single Action Army revolver to defend himself, even if the pistol held 4 more rounds! The difference in bullet size and power is substantial and a knowledgeable and experienced gunfighter would realize the difference. He wrote the Savage booklet as part of a marketing ploy, for money. Savage was smart to hire him on. There was an article in Gun Digest a few decades ago covering these pistols and Bat Masterson. I recall the article had an old vintage picture of a man who had shot a Florida alligator with a Savage pistol. I had one, a .380 Savage, about 25 years ago, but traded it off. Should have kept it, pretty cool old gun.
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dontcatchmany
New member
I did not read all of the replies/posts in this thread so it may have been touched on.
I have never had to use any of my weapons in a self defense situation as a civilian. There has been one time when I was close to pulling a weapon, but the perp must have sensed that I was armed and backed away.....Thankfully!
I almost never feel comfortable with a 7 or 8 round pistol. Having served in a war years ago I learned that even with a bunch of training that the adrenalin in a shooting confrontation can and does negate a lot of the training and that a whole pot full of firepower was the only thing that ruled the day. It ain't like being at the local gun range. And the responsibility of shooting at other humans can go with you for a lifetime afterwards.
There is lots of data that shows that even very well trained police officers only hit with a small portion of what they shoot.
During the Civil War muskets were found after battles with as many as 18 reloads in the barrel. The carrier of the weapon had loaded the weapon many times and in the "excitement" of the battle never pulled the trigger.
Me, I am not going out looking for trouble, but I want to be prepared for when trouble comes and hope I never have to. AND, I do not like to reload and like higher capacity magazines to support my laziness when I shoot. And when I run out of ammo all I have is something similar to a rock and my fist fighting days are long gone.
I have never had to use any of my weapons in a self defense situation as a civilian. There has been one time when I was close to pulling a weapon, but the perp must have sensed that I was armed and backed away.....Thankfully!
I almost never feel comfortable with a 7 or 8 round pistol. Having served in a war years ago I learned that even with a bunch of training that the adrenalin in a shooting confrontation can and does negate a lot of the training and that a whole pot full of firepower was the only thing that ruled the day. It ain't like being at the local gun range. And the responsibility of shooting at other humans can go with you for a lifetime afterwards.
There is lots of data that shows that even very well trained police officers only hit with a small portion of what they shoot.
During the Civil War muskets were found after battles with as many as 18 reloads in the barrel. The carrier of the weapon had loaded the weapon many times and in the "excitement" of the battle never pulled the trigger.
Me, I am not going out looking for trouble, but I want to be prepared for when trouble comes and hope I never have to. AND, I do not like to reload and like higher capacity magazines to support my laziness when I shoot. And when I run out of ammo all I have is something similar to a rock and my fist fighting days are long gone.
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There are many individuals, in past conversations, who can not see carrying Hi Cap pistols, over 15 rounds? As most gun altercations only need 3 or so rounds to end them?
But what if it does not? My 16 rounds in my G19 do not do any harm, just sitting there!
My spare G17 magazine, same philosophy! Next to the spare Mag. a Truglow flashlight, more used than guns or bullets, truth be told.
A concealed pistol, carried always, goes under the heading, of just in case. I have never felt the need to justify what I carry to anyone.
But what if it does not? My 16 rounds in my G19 do not do any harm, just sitting there!
My spare G17 magazine, same philosophy! Next to the spare Mag. a Truglow flashlight, more used than guns or bullets, truth be told.
A concealed pistol, carried always, goes under the heading, of just in case. I have never felt the need to justify what I carry to anyone.
So, over the last few days my choice of retirement CCW's has been either my 4013TSW (9rd mag), one of my LCP's (6rd mag) or one of my 5-shot snubs (M&P 340 or a 37DAO). It depended where I was planning to go to involve myself in activities, what I was planning to wear (cover garment), and a bit of a risk assessment for the anticipated locations and involved travel. Same thing I did regarding my off-duty choices and activities before I retired.
Folks have a lot of options nowadays. More than ever before.
Hopefully, some folks who have decided that they suddenly need to be "more prepared" by having "more ammunition capacity" have also given some thought to whether their skills might also benefit from some added attention and "improvement", too.
Folks have a lot of options nowadays. More than ever before.
Hopefully, some folks who have decided that they suddenly need to be "more prepared" by having "more ammunition capacity" have also given some thought to whether their skills might also benefit from some added attention and "improvement", too.
SonOfScubaDiver
New member
I've been following this thread from the start and think that some really good points have been made. I've only been into shooting for about a year and half, so deciding on capacity when carrying has been something that I've thought about quite a bit. I consider myself to be fortunate in that I have gotten very good advice from seasoned law enforcement professionals, both retired and actively serving. Because they have almost unanimously stressed the importance of shot placement and finding cover, I have settled on a 5 shot revolver with two speed strips for a total of 17 rounds (which would more than likely be considerably more than I would ever actually need). When I run SD scenarios in my mind, and when I practice shooting, I focus on accuracy because my initial volley would only be five rounds. I want each one to count, with the hope that five would be enough to end the threat or buy me enough time to find cover.
With that said, a question that keeps popping into my mind has to do with how much higher capacity magazines contribute to "spray and pray" shooting in SD situations. I think that having so many available rounds to shoot in rapid succession would basically guarantee an increase in the chances of an innocent bystander getting hit. The bad guy confronts you, you pull out your gun with 15 rounds in it, start pulling the trigger, and end up pulling it more than was actually necessary only because you had so many rounds to begin with. In my mind it's almost like a false sense of security based on a full 15 round magazine.
I know that we all have to make this decision for ourselves, and I don't criticize or fault anyone for choosing guns with higher capacity. But I can't help but wonder what affect that has in actual SD shootings. I mean, how many innocent people have been shot over someone shooting off a full magazine when that many shots weren't necessary?
With that said, a question that keeps popping into my mind has to do with how much higher capacity magazines contribute to "spray and pray" shooting in SD situations. I think that having so many available rounds to shoot in rapid succession would basically guarantee an increase in the chances of an innocent bystander getting hit. The bad guy confronts you, you pull out your gun with 15 rounds in it, start pulling the trigger, and end up pulling it more than was actually necessary only because you had so many rounds to begin with. In my mind it's almost like a false sense of security based on a full 15 round magazine.
I know that we all have to make this decision for ourselves, and I don't criticize or fault anyone for choosing guns with higher capacity. But I can't help but wonder what affect that has in actual SD shootings. I mean, how many innocent people have been shot over someone shooting off a full magazine when that many shots weren't necessary?