High round counts for civilians

I'd say the potential for a round in a magazine or cylinder changing the outcome of a violent encounter decreases from the first few to the last few. That is the bottom round in your seventeen round magazine is less likely to change the outcome of a violent encounter than the first or second round. But if you do need that last round in your seventeen round magazine, you probably really need it.

I generally carry a five shot J frame snubby at work as a greasemonkey, not because it's the best choice in a violent encounter, but because it conceals well and it doesn't interfere with my work. I'd like to carry a larger handgun with more capacity and I'm experimenting with a single stack auto and a six shot revolver. It's not a problem for me to carry a 12 shot g26 with a spare g17 magazine when I'm not working but I'm thinking that having one carry method/firearm outweighs the extra capacity and shootability that the larger handgun brings for now.
 
Why focus on when everything goes right? 3 rounds, 3 seconds, 3 feet away, and in CandyLand?

We carry a gun in the first place for when things go wrong. When they go wrong, they go very wrong. Especially if we get a visit from our good friend Murphy.


We prepare and set out to prepare for worst case scenario. Trying to cover all bases, as many as we can fathom. So why sell yourself short on the notion that you'll only need 3-4 rounds? By that logic, loading a magazine 5 rounds deep should be optimal right? Why load it up in the first place?

You car is on empty but where you have to go, in theory can be reached with a half tank of gasoline, so do you not fill it up anyways?

I've touch enough on that portion. Now for my second portion. Things to consider.

  • Multiple attackers - Not all scatter. Some get red and want one thing. Same goal. You'll be fighting Cerberus.
  • Missed shots - You're moving. They're moving. Both goals are to not get shot.
  • Shots that fail to incapacitate - Poorly placed shots. In the meat, not hitting any vital arteries or organs. Upper CNS and brain stem. etc
  • Barriers - No one stands still waiting to be shot. They can get or wind up behind cover while running from you or to engage you. Contrary to Hollywood, drywall, car doors, and tables aren't cover, they're concealment and bullets zing right though.
  • Ammo failure - Bad primer and/or failure to expand.
  • Magazine failure - Magazine seizes up because of that pocket lint in that gun you refuse to clean because you want to see how long it'll go without it.

Those are just some right off the top of my head that I can think of on the fly. There are many more that they've covered in classes.

You need to remember the reality of things. They have the drop on you. They chose you while you're standing at the ATM, walking to your car, going into your home from your driveway, or while walking in an outdoor mall. We're simply going about our daily lives and they've been the one to always choose their victims. Don't let them label you a victim. Come prepared as you should.

Nothing about this is black and white. Carry enough gun. 9mm in the double digits or a single stack 9mm with a spare magazine or two. Carry medical as well. A tourniquet or something. Chances are, you may also wind up hurt.

And train, train, train.
 
Constantine said:
Why focus on when everything goes right? 3 rounds, 3 seconds, 3 feet away, and in CandyLand?

We carry a gun in the first place for when things go wrong. When they go wrong, they go very wrong. Especially if we get a visit from our good friend Murphy.


We prepare and set out to prepare for worst case scenario. Trying to cover all bases, as many as we can fathom. So why sell yourself short on the notion that you'll only need 3-4 rounds? By that logic, loading a magazine 5 rounds deep should be optimal right? Why load it up in the first place?

You car is on empty but where you have to go, in theory can be reached with a half tank of gasoline, so do you not fill it up anyways?

I've touch enough on that portion. Now for my second portion. Things to consider.

  • Multiple attackers - Not all scatter. Some get red and want one thing. Same goal. You'll be fighting Cerberus.
  • Missed shots - You're moving. They're moving. Both goals are to not get shot.
  • Shots that fail to incapacitate - Poorly placed shots. In the meat, not hitting any vital arteries or organs. Upper CNS and brain stem. etc
  • Barriers - No one stands still waiting to be shot. They can get or wind up behind cover while running from you or to engage you. Contrary to Hollywood, drywall, car doors, and tables aren't cover, they're concealment and bullets zing right though.
  • Ammo failure - Bad primer and/or failure to expand.
  • Magazine failure - Magazine seizes up because of that pocket lint in that gun you refuse to clean because you want to see how long it'll go without it.

Those are just some right off the top of my head that I can think of on the fly. There are many more that they've covered in classes.

You need to remember the reality of things. They have the drop on you. They chose you while you're standing at the ATM, walking to your car, going into your home from your driveway, or while walking in an outdoor mall. We're simply going about our daily lives and they've been the one to always choose their victims. Don't let them label you a victim. Come prepared as you should.

Nothing about this is black and white. Carry enough gun. 9mm in the double digits or a single stack 9mm with a spare magazine or two. Carry medical as well. A tourniquet or something. Chances are, you may also wind up hurt.

And train, train, train.
Click to expand...
Constatine,

I am 100% in agreement with your post. You cannot ever have too many rounds availble when it`s for real. Unless you are a seasoned lawman you do not know how you will react. As we have seen in the videos, even the best shooter will probably miss his target when under that much stress.
 
Interesting information from Ken Hackathorn in the March 2017 issue of SWAT Magazine.

Dave Morelli's article entitled "Training for the Real World" was a review of the Ken Hackathorn Firearms Instructor Course. It's a worthwhile read.

Under the subtopic of "Number of Shots Fired", Morelli notes that Hackathorn makes the distinction between "shootings" where there is only one person firing and a "gunfight" where there are bullets going in at least two directions.

In "shootings", Hackathorn asserts that one to three rounds is the typical ammunition expenditure--this is the figure we're all familiar with from police shooting statistics. In "gunfights", however, he makes the assertion that "magazines will be emptied".

This is an interesting distinction, and one that is not often made. We know that not all police shootings (the primary source of this type of information) involve situations where both the officer and attacker are actively firing a weapon. The attacker may be unarmed, or armed with something other than a firearm. Or the attacker may have a firearm but can't/doesn't actually fire shots before being neutralized.

It makes sense that a situation where only one person actively uses a firearm that fewer shots would be required to end the encounter, but it is informative to see the two types of engagements explicitly separated and information on shots fired provided for both types.
 
Those are excellent points. Lots of us had said that there was the statistical misinterpretation of the average as always happening and ignoring the extreme tail of the shots fired continuum. The point being that we had the single mugger be gone fight vs. the intense critical incident. It's been said before but we continually get folks who harp on the average and ignore the extremes, so JohnKSa reinforces that excellent point in his post.

Thus we get folks who carry:

1. Five is enough - but acknowledge they do it for convenience but accept the extreme risk as a downside of convenience.

2. The folks who carry a semi with a larger capacity and reloads.

3. The five is enough folks who don't understand the dynamics and mock those who carry more and say silly things like they are not competent to be in an intensive incident so why bother with more or if you can't do the job in five, you are blah, blah.
 
I think having extra ammunition in the gun may also change the way a defender addresses the threat even if a lot of shots don't get fired. If a defender knows they have twelve or fifteen rounds in the gun, they might act to end the threat more quickly than the defender worried that they might be left holding an empty J frame, even if they both fire a similar number of shots in the end.
 
I think having extra ammunition in the gun may also change the way a defender addresses the threat even if a lot of shots don't get fired. If a defender knows they have twelve or fifteen rounds in the gun, they might act to end the threat more quickly than the defender worried that they might be left holding an empty J frame, even if they both fire a similar number of shots in the end.
Click to expand...

There you have hit on one of the main reasons for carrying a reload..... To reload when you think the fight is over.
 
Quote:
Exactly how many locks are necessary to be responsible?

six

My bad, poster claimed later truck was locked, not the console. A locked vehicle is not a secure place to store firearms. It's irresponsible. The police recovered 6 other guns from this group of teenagers. Some of the guns they had stolen had been sold, including one of the two Glocks. These were 16 YO kids and they had no trouble breaking in to a locked vehicle, it's not esp. difficult. Not much different with a locked console. Center consoles are all plastic, even if both the truck and the console is locked, the weapon is not secure.
 
is because this is a serious matter. Not Ford versus Chevy.
Click to expand...
When you rely on a mode of transport for your work, and as such to support your family and pay the mortgage, it can get pretty serious. I know far more people who rely on their truck to survive on a daily basis than I do who depend on a gun.

If your out of the fight when you're out of rounds you weren't in the fight to begin with.
 
If your out of the fight when you're out of rounds you weren't in the fight to begin with.
Click to expand...

What! If you are "out of rounds" in a gunfighft and your attacker still has ammo your ability to fight is limited at best. Maybe you have other options, but I would not want to bet my life on it.
 
There's not a lot of studies out there without some kind of flaw, and most studies are police related and not self-defense situations by a civilian. We need to understand that some situations are just not going to go our way no matter how many rounds we have on us. You couldn't have fought back in the Vegas shooting without a well sought out position, a scope and a long range rifle. A Glock 19 would have been useless there without being in the building yourself and knocking the door down.

You also have to take into consideration that testimonies of how many shots were fired are almost never accurate, simply due to stress in the moment and forgetfulness after the fact. Which is why officers have a cooldown period before official reports are made to the higher ups.

Other situations require the "Get out of Dodge" method instead of firepower. If you walk down the wrong street at the wrong time and get faced with eight gang members, I guarantee you that you're going to be outgunned even if you manage to take one or two down. Other times you may be evenly matched and you're still going to lose.

What I'm getting at is that there is no real answer to the question except carry what you're comfortable with, and use some common sense. If you live in rough neighborhoods, you may want to up your round count. If you don't and want to be prepared for most normal situations such as a random robbery/carjacking, you may be perfectly fine with a revolver and a reload (or a NY reload if you can).
 
If you don't and want to be prepared for most normal situations such as a random robbery/carjacking, you may be perfectly fine with a revolver and a reload (or a NY reload if you can).
Click to expand...
Isn't a robbery or carjacking the kind of thing that we all prepare for?

How many attackers would you reasonably expect to face in such a situation?

What would be "normal" about it?

How would you expect to be able to reload while being attacked?
 
By normal I mean not a situation that isn't likely in our every day lives, such as the Vegas shooting. We're far more likely to meet the drunk guy outside the bar that wants to pick a fight, or the lone guy popping out from behind a car in the Walmart parking lot that wants our money/someone walking up to your car at a stoplight/sign and wanting to force their way into your car. To be quite frank, if you need to reload a perfectly working weapon, you are probably in a fight you're not going to win without help to begin with. You try to get the heck out of there or at least find cover first.

I can come up with scenarios all day long, and I can find a way to lose them whether I've got 6 rounds or 15. I've never been in the military or been a cop, so I can't speak to such situations. I have however been in 4 different defense situations personally where I've had to draw, been on the wrong (not specifically targeted though) end of drive bys and lived in some ugly neighborhoods. I've tried to plan and prepare for what I feel is the likeliest scenarios first and foremost, but of course your situation may be different. That's why I don't say 15 is fine, or 6 is fine. I give examples and my opinion on what might be suitable for those examples. I'm by no means an expert tactical fighter and I sure as heck don't know everything.
 
By normal I mean not a situation that isn't likely in our every day lives....
Click to expand...
No situation requiring the use of force is likely in our everyday lives.
We're far more likely to meet... the lone guy popping out from behind a car in the Walmart parking lot that wants our money/someone walking up to your car at a stoplight/sign and wanting to force their way into your car.
Click to expand...
Why would you expect a "lone guy" to do that?
To be quite frank, if you need to reload a perfectly working weapon, you are probably in a fight you're not going to win without help to begin with. You try to get the heck out of there or at least find cover first.
Click to expand...
Yep.
 
You're right, we're extremely unlikely to ever need to carry our gun, let alone use it. Some of us are just unlucky or have to deal with unfavorable surroundings. Lone attackers are still more typical than multiples, but that's not going to always be the case. It's just likely. It's been my personal experience that when multiples are involved, you're going to see it coming. The one guy stepping out from somewhere is a lot easier to miss (though our SA should be strong enough to make even that unlikely to be missed).

My experiences are the only ones I can speak on, but nothing is ever going to be only this way or that way. You just prepare the best you can and the rest is up to skill, luck and fate.
 
I can come up with scenarios all day long, and I can find a way to lose them whether I've got 6 rounds or 15.
Click to expand...

Its not about that. Can you effectively place the rounds that you have and are you using enough gun? Not all hits are equal, not all hits in the same place are equal.
 
I can tell you for certain that not all hits are equal nor in the same place equal, that's absolutely true. I've unfortunately seen a few things and have seen well placed 9mm rounds not stop a person. I've also witnessed a man keep coming after hits with a 12 gauge (drugs). That was my point, round count doesn't mean much if you get into the wrong situation at the wrong time. You have to just take a look at your lifestyle, ability and what places you go and then make the best decision you can. And a good choice one day may be a poor choice the next. That's just how life goes.

Let me put it this way, if you're one who lives in or has to deal with very bad neighborhoods, a 5 shot J-Frame is not the smartest choice in the book. I don't anymore, so I feel okay with my .357s and .44s. But, I also own more than a few Glocks, Berettas, 1911s and so on. I'm not a one gun for every situation kind of person, and I don't believe anyone should be. We have no idea when we might have to go somewhere we'd prefer not to, or when a sleepy little neighborhood might get inhabited by MS-13.
 
Tom Givens

Check out

Fighting Smarter: A practical Guide for Surviving Violent Confrontations
By Tom Givens (revised 3rd edition)
(Memphis, Tennessee; Rangemaster, Inc; 29 January 2015)

Chapter 13 – Training Priorities (pages 95 to 105)

In summary, his recommendations:

I would suggest the following as the skills that a private citizen should work toward competency in:

 Fast, effective, and reliable presentation of the handgun from concealment.
 The ability to accurately place several quick shots into an anatomically important area of the target at a distance of 3 to 5 yards.
 The ability to place an anatomically important hit in a reasonable amount of time beyond 7 yards out to at least 25 yards.
 The ability to reload the handgun quickly and efficiently, especially if it holds less than 10 rounds.
 The ability to rapidly move off the line of force (sidestep) without hindering the presentation of the pistol from concealment.
 
Not all of us can sidestep or get off the X very quickly, especially bound to a wheelchair. The rest of it though is pretty spot on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top