High round counts for civilians

I would also add that having a car or truck gun was exactly what led Dr. Gratia-Hupp to fight for TX CHL laws. She had a car gun and watched her parents die because her gun was a 'car' gun. The car gun folks misread risk management.

Next, fighting from a car or truck probably assumes firing through glass. That is not a trivial pursuit to be learned by imagination. It may take a shot or two to establish a path for your fire. With a five shot gun, you are getting a tad low on rounds.


It's more a doing what I feel is right for me thing.
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That's more a Dunning-Kruger statement than anything else, I'm afraid.
 
I think Glenn Meyer's post #101 is the best response to this entire thread.

Training is paramount. People who do not have any training have this misconception of rising to the occasion with the utmost of bravery and accuracy.

Please, train. Get a good pistol and train.

I carry 2 spare reloads on me and there are 2 in my EDC bag.

A good friend of mine said, the only times carrying too much ammo could harm you is if you're in a fire or drowning.

I also want to note, that psychologically one copes with their decision whether it's based on comfort or anything else, by stating certain "facts" that hold no weight. Such as "if I can't do it in 5 rounds (nonsense)"

I think the reason why people "chest thump" back at these people, is because this is a serious matter. Not Ford versus Chevy. This is a mindset that could potentially save your life and the lives of your loved ones. Take it seriously.

Separate gun enthusiasm from self defense. They're two very different things.
 
Well, I certainly wasn't expecting each of my posts to be picked apart, but I can't say that I'm upset over it because y'all really did bring up some valid points. Getting more training is something that I've been thinking about quite a bit lately, and you guys reinforced my thinking that that's a good idea.
 
Ohioguy,

I wouldn't care how many rounds you might have to fire to save your loved ones and your life. The only metric I use is survival. If you have to fire 50 rounds and you've survived, the survival part is all that I'd care about.

A common theme among cops who've been in gunfights is their inability to accurately recall how many rounds they've fired. They're not counting rounds fired. They're zeroed in on survival tactics.
 
That's a good point. An outfit I know of ran some DAs through a live fire shoot house, after they asked how many shots. They were clueless for the most part.
 
I wouldn't care how many rounds you might have to fire to save your loved ones and your life. The only metric I use is survival. If you have to fire 50 rounds and you've survived, the survival part is all that I'd care about.
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I agree that surviving a gunfight is the goal and if 50 rounds are needed, so be it. That has to be balanced with our legal and moral responsibility to do no harm to other innocents in the neighborhood. Each of those 50 rounds has to be accounted for. That is a sobering thought to those of us who carry a gun every day.
 
Honestly, I have an slightly-irrational fear of running out of ammo.

And I carry a Glock, so it's not like I'm afraid of ruining the finish by beating someone to death with it.

But I'm glad to see I'm not the only one.
 
I will repeat a statement I made, in 1984, I had just been elected to the board of IALEFI, The International Association Of Firearms Instructors.
And as a part owner, of Practical Pistols Inc. Out of Toronto.

We had purchased 10 Glock 17s, direct from Austria. Yes, we were the first to import Glocks into North America!

Police were carrying mostly Mod 10 .38 Special, Revolvers, 6 shot revolvers. A fine weapon.
Against a Glock 17, with 18 rounds capacity, not so much. And a 2 second reload, with 17 further rounds, ready to go, impressive.

The President of the Board of IALEFI, at that time, was most likely expecting a job with S&W when he retired from the Police. Was not impressed with the statement I coined, at my first board meeting.

"MORE IS BETTER, ALWAYS."

I believe this is were Spray and Pray was invented, I think!

Many years later, Glock was King of Law Enforcement sales. A fact.

Of course, not made here, did not help! Same as that wonderful British invention, at the end of the second world war WW11. The Bull Pup Rifle, the EM2? But the most important part of that package, the .280 cartridge!
Was swept aside with the much too heavy .308, or 7.62X51 that was the American round.

There is a really fine round, for Personel Defence now emerging, from India no less! The 5.56X30 this round is lighter overall than the 5.56X45 service round most everyone carries now, less recoil, and good out to 300M.

The carbine the Indians have produced to fire this round weighs in at 6 lbs.
and requires no oil! Of course, every Police Officer, who this weapon is aimed at (Excuse the Pun) will put a couple of drops of oil on it!

JVPC- Joint Venture Protective Carbine
 
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An outfit I know of ran some DAs through a live fire shoot house, after they asked how many shots. They were clueless for the most part.
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I watched a hunting video that showed a number of hunters shooting at a group of hogs. After the first shot, the hogs scattered and things got a little wild.

Anyway, one of the shooters, after the action, swore he only shot once. The video showed that he not only shot twice, he actually killed a hog with each shot.

I don't think people are at all likely to count their shots accurately under high stress.
 
Truck Guns

And this was in Texas.....

I participate heavily on another private board that is centred on the profession I am a part of.
A member there started a thread about having two Glock pistols stolen from the center console of his two parked vehicles.

I took the poster to task for leaving guns effectively unsecured in the vehicles. That poster got one of the two pistols back, the other had already been sold on the street by the teenagers who broke in to his vehicles.

Was amazed at the responses, about 4-1 against my position that it is the owners responsibility to properly secure weapons. The center console of a locked vehicle is not secure.

My last post in that thread mentioned there might even be a little blood on the one Glock that was not recovered. If he should ever get it back.

The bad guys don't go to the LGS to buy their guns. The irresponsible owner bears at least some blame should that stolen Glock be used in a crime.

Very few gun folks on that board. Amazed at the responses I got.
 
Nanuk.

That .280 round was a good idea, I thought?

Bigger is not better when you have to carry the Bloody ammo!

Except for the horrendous Indian crappy demo. Yanks do these better.

My thoughts are for a Police Carbine. You just can not beat the magazine that fits in the pistol grip for fumble-free mag changes. Red dot sight, that is also a laser pointer. Perfect for Cops. And the Boron coating, does not require oil?
(mind you I would have to add a couple of drops!)

A couple of these 2500fps 5.56 HP in the chest, from up to 200m away? They go through body armour, plus 1/8"th mild steel? Beats your duty pistol, yes?

I think no full auto though. Modify to get lock back on last round fired.

Collapsable stock. Neat little canvas sling. And way better than 9mm.
 
Ricklin said:
The bad guys don't go to the LGS to buy their guns. The irresponsible owner bears at least some blame should that stolen Glock be used in a crime.
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Putting aside the question of whether a lawful owner of a firearm should be held responsible for the actions of criminals, why do you feel it is irresponsible to store a Glock inside the center console of a locked vehicle? Exactly how many locks are necessary to be responsible?
 
That .280 round was a good idea, I thought?

Bigger is not better when you have to carry the Bloody ammo!
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That difference has to be minuscule. I do know about humping ammo, I was an M-60 gunner. Not to mention logistics. the US military at the time had tons of 30 cal ammo on hand.

My thoughts are for a Police Carbine. You just can not beat the magazine that fits in the pistol grip for fumble-free mag changes. Red dot sight, that is also a laser pointer. Perfect for Cops. And the Boron coating, does not require oil?
(mind you I would have to add a couple of drops!)
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Pretty subjective. Having been there done that as well I prefer a carbine. Having used M-16/M-4 family of rifles for decades it is my choice. Modularity, caliber selection, accessories. My go to is a 300 BLK AR Pistol.

A couple of these 2500fps 5.56 HP in the chest, from up to 200m away? They go through body armour, plus 1/8"th mild steel? Beats your duty pistol, yes?
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Yes, but not a 5.56X45 or 300 BLK. Fired from an SBR or pistol.

I think no full auto though. Modify to get lock back on last round fired.
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Agree, having used FA for many years it has a specific role, I don't even think grunts should have them (aside a squad level SAW).

Collapsable stock. Neat little canvas sling. And way better than 9mm.
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Just about any service cartridge is better than a 9mm.
 
In my view, it comes down to percentages. Watch those ACP videos. In the overwhelming majority of them, the BGs panic and flee after a couple of shots.

Carrying 6 rounds (ASSUMING you can shoot) is sufficient for, let's say, 92% of your possible deadly force self defense situations. Please note, I'm talking about civilians on the street, not jewelry store owners in Detroit, or police officers or SWAT teams.

Carrying 10 rounds kicks it up to, say, 97.8%. 15 rounds, 98.4%. A 2nd 15 round magazine, 99.5%. A full auto, 99.99% A grenade launcher.... I'm just making up those numbers, but, well, you get my drift....

My 9mm Walther P99AS has a capacity of 15+1. However, in my normal everyday concealed carry, I usually just load it with 10 rounds (9+1) of 124 gr. +P Gold Dot, because for me the reduced weight makes a noticeable difference in comfort.

I'm OK with that. I'm good and fast with this gun, and I know that in my normal, everyday life, 10 rounds will be more than enough to get me out of virtually any situation I might find myself in. Yes, there are exceptions, of course, but they are so improbable I don't feel like I need to walk around prepared for them. And certainly, some people live, work or travel in environments where those percentages are different, and they may be justified in carrying more capability. Even I sometimes carry 15+1 in unique situations.

So, as I said, I think it all comes down to percentages and what you're personally comfortable with.
 
Did a lot of scenario based training the other day.

In one scenario we come up on a vehicle where the driver jumps out and starts shooting an AR rifle back at us while we are sitting in our vehicles and he is running around. While I was a little hamstrung by the large mask/ helmet my accuracy was horrible.

I managed one hit out of a 30 round AR magazine at a range of 50 feet (while seated in a car using the dash for support) on a man sized target. A second shooter came out of the passenger side and after transitioning to the pistol managed three hits out of 17 at the same range (while out of the vehicle moving/ duck and cover). A less than 10% hit rate.

My results were typical for the group.

I was lucky that the bad guy was poorly trained. He had zero hits. Can't always count on that.
 
Carrying 10 rounds kicks it up to, say, 97.8%. 15 rounds, 98.4%. A 2nd 15 round magazine, 99.5%. A full auto, 99.99% A grenade launcher.... I'm just making up those numbers, but, well, you get my drift....
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You cannot make up the numbers and retain credibility. You cannot use a mathematical equation to figure a gunfight, there are too many variables and if you just use averages you may as well make up the numbers.

I speak from experience, US Army, Military Police, Ft Worth, TX Police, US Border Patrol, decades worth. Training and a cool head will always win over capacity, always.

I managed one hit out of a 30 round AR magazine at a range of 50 feet (while seated in a car using the dash for support) on a man sized target. A second shooter came out of the passenger side and after transitioning to the pistol managed three hits out of 17 at the same range (while out of the vehicle moving/ duck and cover). A less than 10% hit rate.
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My experience, most FOF is set up to throw you into the worst scenario. The best part is you can identify weaknesses and address them.
 
You cannot make up the numbers and retain credibility. You cannot use a mathematical equation to figure a gunfight, there are too many variables and if you just use averages you may as well make up the numbers.
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I'm sorry you were unable to comprehend the meaning of my post. Nobody is "using a mathematical equation to figure a gunfight." My point was simply that carrying a few rounds, e.g. 5 or 6, will be sufficient for the overwhelming majority of self-defense situations a civilian is likely to encounter in everyday life.

Carrying more rounds is sufficient for a slightly larger majority, and so on. I don't realistically expect to be in a situation where my own 10 rounds wouldn't be enough. It's possible, of course. Anything's possible. So, as I said, it's a matter of what level of capability you're comfortable with.

I speak from experience, US Army, Military Police, Ft Worth, TX Police, US Border Patrol, decades worth.
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This is admirable, and I nod to you in recognition. However, it's not really pertinent to the likely civilian self-defense situation. Say, walking to your car in a parking lot, or standing in a convenience store counter when a robber walks in. I don't really walk out the front door prepared for a brush-county shootout with a gang of Los Zetas.

Training and a cool head will always win over capacity, always.
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This is profoundly true. When it comes down to drawing and firing in a split-second, life and death confrontation, you'll go with your training.
 
My point was simply that carrying a few rounds, e.g. 5 or 6, will be sufficient for the overwhelming majority of self-defense situations a civilian is likely to encounter in everyday life.

Carrying more rounds is sufficient for a slightly larger majority, and so on.
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You would draw such conclusions from made-up numbers? Really?
 
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