Help Me Understand the Comeback of 10mm

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Handgun owners love to follow trends, and gun makers are always trying to set or at least be on top of the next one. Dirty Harry elevated the price of the S&W 29 from $259 to more than twice that, almost overnight. Most people bought their .44 Magnum, fired it, then, either sold it, or stuck it in a drawer and kept using .357 or .38 Special. The whole stopping power debate, is a bunch of lunacy. What are we stopping, and what is it wearing? 9x19mm penetrated a steel pot helmet 100 yards farther away than a .45ACP, in US Army testing. If I need to engage anything 125 yards away, please, let me at least use a pistol caliber carbine, preferably a rifle. Having owned one, Glock's 10mm pistols are nothing I would really consider, again, but I have had an H&K USP 40 reamed out to 10mm. Otherwise, I have been more than content to stick with 9mm Parabellum while everyone was dumping it for .40 S&W. I was gleefully buying up Hi Powers chambered in 9mm while their previous owners were salivating over their new Practical .40 S&W, and now I am buying the unwanted .40 S&Ws, at discounted prices. It lets me go buy a 10mm, or two, or a .357, or a forgotten 1980s Gates Super Magnum, or whatever someone will cut me a really good deal on. Worst case scenario, I will shoot someone 6x in the face with a .25ACP, or a .32ACP but I will almost always have something that spits some kind of lead. I don't do leadless projectiles that fall apart. 10mm? It's Shot Show. It's a huge sales pitch. As I type, the police helicopter is orbiting a couple blocks south, while a loudspeaker blares, "Suspect who ran from the car, you are surrounded, we are going to send in the dog." After 15 minutes of this, it's obvious, "They have no clue where this guy is, and by now he could be hiding in my yard or be north of me, or who knows. I have a Hi Power next to me. I started shooting semi autos with the Hi Power, over 40 years ago. I can shoot it with my eyes closed, meaning, "I do not need any sight picture to hit an orange at 10 or 20 yards, and I have no issues about shooting more than once!" Bonded JHPs, not super dedicated to one brand. Speer has one of the worst groupings of what I have shot, from a bench rest. It's still more than acceptable.
 
The 10mm is often overlooked for its accuracy. While it is fine to have good velocity and decent power, that is not too useful if it doesn't put the rounds where it is aimed. All of the 10mm Autos I have and have shot were noticeably accurate without too much fooling around with loads and with some development you can get a very accurate load. That, IMHO, is another reason why it continues to gain in popularity especially for hunters.
 
Kvon2 said:
I promise I am not trying to spark a caliber war, I know its been done.

Help Me Understand the Comeback of 10mm

Thoughts?
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It's not a comeback, it's never left. What it is is when there is a dead gun market the manufactures will put the lipstick on the pig routine and to the clueless they think it's new and exciting.

10mm only makes sense if you are a re-loader. You can buy some boutique ammo that is better than a .40 S&W but you'll pay dearly for it. Other than that most commercial ammo is no better than a .40 S&W loading.

10mm is a powerful round (loaded to it's potential) and I think would work as good as a .357 magnum coming out of a carbine. But if you just want to be different and pretend you have a a-- kicker it may work out good for you.

And the line about .45 a.c.p. being a push and not a snap is just another old wise tale. The reason why some claim the .40 S&W is snappy because it was design on the rush and the cheap and used on 9mm frames. Very few manufactures have ever built a handgun just for the .40 S&W.

Look at that this and see if you can tell the difference.



https://vimeo.com/259452961

Are you surprised, could you get a 10mm as brutal, sure you can but not off the shelf.

And most local police dept's no longer follow the FBI protocol when it comes to ammo choices, hence why most are staying with the very well proven .40 S&W and the only ones carrying 9mm in the FBI are the office jockey's, the accountants and lawyers who only arrest the bankers and the Wall-Street scammers.


Rest assured any violent felony arrest are not being made with a 9mm.
 
...but not off the shelf.
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It is true that there is a lot of lightly loaded 10mm on the commercial market. But that doesn't mean it's not possible to shoot full-power 10mm without reloading or buying from a "boutique" ammo maker.

Winchester sells a 10mm loading with a 175gr bullet @ 1290fps.
Federal sells a 10mm loading with a 180gr bullet @ 1275fps.
Hornady sells a few hot 10mm loadings. One has a 180gr bullet at 1180fps.
And most local police dept's no longer follow the FBI protocol when it comes to ammo choices, hence why most are staying with the very well proven .40 S&W and the only ones carrying 9mm in the FBI are the office jockey's, the accountants and lawyers who only arrest the bankers and the Wall-Street scammers.

Rest assured any violent felony arrest are not being made with a 9mm.
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Even before the FBI's move to 9mm, it was the second most commonly issued caliber in U.S. law enforcement--the idea that it's only rarely issued, and then only to "office jockey's" is not remotely based in fact. Given the recent decline of the .40S&W's popularity in LE due to the FBI's changes (as evidenced by the flood of police trade-in guns in .40S&W on the market), 9mm may now be the most commonly issued LE caliber in the U.S.

At any rate, whether it's in first or second place, it should be quite obvious that huge numbers of rank and file officers are carrying 9mm and that many violent felony arrests are made by LEOs using 9mm pistols. For one thing, the NYPD, the largest PD in the U.S. uses 9mm.
 
gleefully buying up Hi Powers chambered in 9mm while their previous owners were salivating over their new Practical .40 S&W, and now I am buying the unwanted .40 S&Ws, at discounted prices
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you're my kinda guy.


It's not a comeback, it's never left. What it is is when there is a dead gun market the manufactures will put the lipstick on the pig routine and to the clueless they think it's new and exciting.
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I would argue it is a comeback. It seems more manufacturers than ever are offering models in 10mm and while it's always been around it hasn't gotten this kind of attention from the manufacturers in a good while.
 
For me, someone who's been in and out of the 10mm over the years, I have a few reasons for why it's gaining somewhat more popularity.

1. A lot of people hate the .40 S&W, some of them are 10mm guys that for some reason, hate the .40. Maybe they feel the 10mm would have been more popular if it weren't for the .40 S&W. People may love 9mm and .45, hate the .40 with a passion yet love the 10mm, which makes zero sense.

2. The availability of very warm 10mm ammo from boutique ammo makers. It used to be the only commercial 10mm loads were pretty anemic. A few people took to marketing and loading up the 10mm quite warm to please the "energy" crowd... and it worked. Handloaders know this, but most don't load their own so the availability of this hot 10mm has helped it tremendously.

3. A few quasi-popular personalities use the 10mm to hunt with. There's nothing wrong with this, many see handguns as "poor performers" so when they see deer and hog killed with 10mm, they think it's something super special. Truth is, if you load the .40 and .45 warm like they load the 10mm warm, they'll kill anything the 10mm will.

4. It's a "cool" cartridge, maybe Miami Vice had something to do with it, maybe not but the fact remains, it's a cool cartridge that also has a lot of internet "mystique", which is mostly just absurd claims of how ridiculously powerful it is... again, very over exaggerated.

I like the 10mm, I really do. However, I really don't think it offers anything over the .40 or .45, a slight edge perhaps, but to me it's not worth it in the end.
 
Truthtellers said:
Why buy a .357 if all you're gonna use is .38 Special? Because you get one gun that can dish out .40 power and max 10mm power. There's a lot that 10mm can do that .40 can't, same with .357 and .38.

.....

I mean, with the G35 it's still a great size for 9mm and .40 S&W. I know it will be reliable as the smaller magazines would probably wobble in the larger frame Glocks, but the 10mm is becoming more and more obvious as a better choice than .40 S&W.
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In all fairness, how is it a better choice?

For the reloader, .40 brass is much cheaper than 10mm brass (due to once fired brass) and you may not be aware, you can load the .40 quite warm. I've easily hit 1300 fps with a 180gr bullet in the G35. The .40 uses less powder and will kill anything the 10mm will. Socially, I'm not sure you could ask for a better cartridge than the .40 S&W.

Here's a video of a deer shot using a Glock 35 with factory JHP ammo (not "hot" ammo either):

https://youtu.be/nP9L3i4xDF0

What more could you want??

Let me put it this way, as a reloader if I can load a 180gr XTP in a Glock 20 to run 1350 fps (4.6" stock barrel) and the same 180gr XTP in a Glock 22 (4.5" bbl) to 1250 fps, what will that extra 100 fps give me? Realistically what will it give me that I cannot get from 1250 fps?
 
It used to be the only commercial 10mm loads were pretty anemic.
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From the very beginning, Winchester has loaded their STHP loading for the 10mm at full power. It is true that for long periods Winchester was the only mainstream ammo maker providing full power 10mm, but their 10mm STHP has remained on the market since they started making it back when the 10mm was first introduced. In addition, during the timeframe after the Norma loading was taken off the market and before the boutique makers started providing full-power 10mm, CorBon occasionally sold some very hot 10mm ammo along with Winchester.
The availability of very warm 10mm ammo from boutique ammo makers.
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Even discounting the fact that full-power 10mm has always been available on the commercial market, giving the boutique ammo makers credit for bringing the 10mm back doesn't make sense. Doubletap has been providing hot 10mm loadings for over a decade and a half and Buffalobore has been selling their "Heavy 10mm" for at least 13 years. If availability of full-power 10mm from boutique makers is what is bringing back the 10mm, the comeback should have started back in the early to mid 2000s, not in the late 2010s.
I've easily hit 1300 fps with a 180gr bullet in the G35.
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People who aren't overly concerned with reloading safety can load nearly any caliber a lot hotter than what the manuals recommend. Book loads for 180gr bullets in the .40S&W top out around 1100fps. The fact that someone has managed to load a particular caliber to levels far exceeding what is recommended is more of a commentary on that reloader's prudence than it is an endorsement of the caliber in question.
 
If you can load 200gr @ 1,200+ and 220gr @ 1,100+ in a .40 S&W without blowing up your gun I'd love to see it. From some minimal safe distance. And maybe behind a plexiglass wall.

Penetration is king in hunting anything of consequence, and in handguns that requires solid bullets with high sectional density moving at speed. .40 S&W and .45 ACP can't compete with 10mm in that area, at least not safely.

e: Federal 180gr CastCore .357 Magnum @1130 FPS vs. Buffalo Bore 10mm 220gr HCFN @ 1,140 FPS from a Glock 20 is an obvious comparison, comparable SD and velocity but with a bigger bullet. That's really what 10mm is for.
 
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For me, someone who's been in and out of the 10mm over the years, I have a few reasons for why it's gaining somewhat more popularity.

1. A lot of people hate the .40 S&W, some of them are 10mm guys that for some reason, hate the .40. Maybe they feel the 10mm would have been more popular if it weren't for the .40 S&W. People may love 9mm and .45, hate the .40 with a passion yet love the 10mm, which makes zero sense.

2. The availability of very warm 10mm ammo from boutique ammo makers. It used to be the only commercial 10mm loads were pretty anemic. A few people took to marketing and loading up the 10mm quite warm to please the "energy" crowd... and it worked. Handloaders know this, but most don't load their own so the availability of this hot 10mm has helped it tremendously.

3. A few quasi-popular personalities use the 10mm to hunt with. There's nothing wrong with this, many see handguns as "poor performers" so when they see deer and hog killed with 10mm, they think it's something super special. Truth is, if you load the .40 and .45 warm like they load the 10mm warm, they'll kill anything the 10mm will.

4. It's a "cool" cartridge, maybe Miami Vice had something to do with it, maybe not but the fact remains, it's a cool cartridge that also has a lot of internet "mystique", which is mostly just absurd claims of how ridiculously powerful it is... again, very over exaggerated.

I like the 10mm, I really do. However, I really don't think it offers anything over the .40 or .45, a slight edge perhaps, but to me it's not worth it in the end.
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I agree with this 100%

Another huge advantage to the 40 is that almost every popular handgun is available in 40 and can even be easily converted to 357 SIG as a bonus. They are generally smaller firearms as well.

As far as 40 vs 10mm, I have seen that there is about a 150 fps difference between them with most bullet weights. There are some bullets that are not very useful in the 40 like the 230 WFNGC and the 155g Barnes, but for the most part they are both able to use most available bullets.

I have hand loaded 180 Hornady HAP to 1150 and fired them from my 226 and my M&P 40 and they are a handful. Those same bullets leave my Glock 20 at 1300 and it's not fun for more than a few mags. They will both get the job done IMO with the 10mm giving you a bit more range for hunting.

I usually take my 40/357SIG and leave the Glock at home.
 
The increased popularity of the 10mm may be a result of shooters becoming bored with the 9mm. While I consider the 9mm a good defense round, I much prefer to shoot something more interesting and powerful at the range.

I get bored with the 9mm before the magazine is empty. But I grin each time I empty the cylinder on a 44 or 45 caliber 6 shooter, and look forward to the next 6. A 7 shot 1911 in 45 Auto is the low end of my enjoyment threshold at the range.
 
The 10mm Auto delivers good, efficient power for the person who wants a little more punch balanced with mild/moderate recoil. For a service-self defense pistol the 10 is okay but as the military, FBI, and a lot of law enforcement realize; the 9mm provides the most practical answer to that application. The 40 S&W is fine for defense and a maybe a 10mm Auto is not wanted because just like in revolvers, sometimes a 38 Special is fine and you don't need or want the 357 magnum. For the person who wants a little more power or who hunts with handguns, the 10mm is an option. It is all in what you want.
 
Doubletap has been providing hot 10mm loadings for over a decade and a half and Buffalobore has been selling their "Heavy 10mm" for at least 13 years. If availability of full-power 10mm from boutique makers is what is bringing back the 10mm, the comeback should have started back in the early to mid 2000s, not in the late 2010s.
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Actually, if you look at the rate of adoption among a lot of shooters 15 years might be considered a lightning quick transition!

May just be that a lot of people bought guns over the last few years and don't need anything new, so they are looking for something a little bit odd-ball to spend their money on.
 
May just be that a lot of people bought guns over the last few years and don't need anything new, so they are looking for something a little bit odd-ball to spend their money on.
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Perfectly explains my purchase of a 10MM a few years ago.
Din't have a 10, didn't have a Glock.......

Voilà, Glock 20 in the safe!
 
JohnKSa said:
People who aren't overly concerned with reloading safety can load nearly any caliber a lot hotter than what the manuals recommend. Book loads for 180gr bullets in the .40S&W top out around 1100fps. The fact that someone has managed to load a particular caliber to levels far exceeding what is recommended is more of a commentary on that reloader's prudence than it is an endorsement of the caliber in question.
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.

To be fair, Hodgdon for many years listed a 180gr JHP doing 1160 fps from a .40 S&W 4" test bbl. To get an extra ~140 fps (to hit 1300 fps) with almost an extra 1.5" of barrel and .5 (half) grain of powder shouldn't be insanely hard to believe, I've done it.
 
CastleBravo said:
If you can load 200gr @ 1,200+ and 220gr @ 1,100+ in a .40 S&W without blowing up your gun I'd love to see it. From some minimal safe distance. And maybe behind a plexiglass wall.

Penetration is king in hunting anything of consequence, and in handguns that requires solid bullets with high sectional density moving at speed. .40 S&W and .45 ACP can't compete with 10mm in that area, at least not safely.

e: Federal 180gr CastCore .357 Magnum @1130 FPS vs. Buffalo Bore 10mm 220gr HCFN @ 1,140 FPS from a Glock 20 is an obvious comparison, comparable SD and velocity but with a bigger bullet. That's really what 10mm is for.
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Nothing wrong with the 10mm at all, but I've ran a 200gr WFNGC from a Glock 23 w/KKM 4" barrel to just over 1,155 fps average, very accurate and low standard deviation.

I would like to point out that with solid bullets, like the above 200gr WFNGC, that you're not going to see much, if any, difference in how far they penetrate even if running 100-200 fps faster. There's actually a point were faster actually hurts penetration. A 200gr hardcast running 1175 from a Glock 22 or 1275 from a Glock 20 will both punch a hole through rather large animals, so presuming proper shot placement, where's the 10mm's huge advantage?

I don't buy the 10mm being safer argument either, in reloading them both (.40+10mm) I've noticed that 10mm brass seems weaker than .40 brass. They both max out at nearly the same pressure, 10mm holds a little more powder, so the 10mm really shouldn't be that much faster, and it isn't when you load them both warm.

A .45 ACP can run a 250gr hardcast (same sectional density as a 200gr .40/10mm) to over 1000 fps from a 5" bbl, and that too will cut deep. Heck, some will say it's a better killer than the faster 200gr 10mm because it cuts a bigger hole. I have a 10mm (Glock 20) and it's a good gun, but it's not really a step up over the .40 or .45, it's just another option.
 
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