Handguns and bear defense

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GeorgeF..
Check your state legal website. Here in Cali, legal pepperspray is weaker than the salsa I routinely make......meaning, I eat that on eggs for breakfast.

It appears that Alaska allows citizens a more powerful PS. The strength rating allowable varies from state to state....can't allow the more "civilized" states potent chili spray now can we? ;)

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Ok, so I can't shoot the driver of a car closing at 35mph from 50 yards away, but if a bear has knocked my rifle\shotgun\pepper spray from my hands on a suprize charge and is mauling me, I still like the thought of being able to stuff a barrel into his hide and filling him with a couple litres of hot exploding muzzle blast. I'd carry the sidearm even if I don't think I can hit the bear on the charge, he may or may not get me but he'll be sorry he tried.
 
Theres several notes I want to reply to but I don't want to keep reloading this unwieldy thread.

1. Good info on bear attacks - including many black bear incidents can be found in the books at http://www.kaniut.com/ these are incidents relayed by actual mauling victims and witnesses.
The leading authority on bear attacks is a Canadian biologist named Steve Herrera (I don't know if thats spelled right). I'm told he has a web site but I've yet to find it. He has published several books on the issue.

Heres the way it went for the last three people to get mauled on Kodiak. These are actually quite similar in the speed that events unfolded.
In my mauling, I had a rifle in hand when a bedded bear laeped out and took me down. I attempted to get the rifle to my shoulder but it was too fast. At one point she had me by the knee shaking me like dog shakes a rat. I struck her with my fists and she swiped my hand aside - If i'd had a DA revolver I might have got a shot off at that point. A SA revolver or a pepper spray with a safety cap, no way.
A month ago, a man named Doug Moe was gutting a deer when a bear stalked up and took him down. His rifle was withing 3 feet and he couldn't get to it. The bear got ahold of his left shoulder and began shaking him while he used the knife in his right hand to repeatdly stab the bears neck. The bear let go backed off a couple of feet and he grabbed his rifle and shot her three times with 220 grain slugs until she went down. Moe will never regain use of his left arm and has plenty of other injuries. I doubt that he could have manipulated any sort of safety device either.
This "shaking" thing that bears do pretty much eliminates any opportunity to perform any manual function like unsnapping a holster or thumb-cocking a revolver - MORE
 
Ran out of room in that other note.

Anyway, you have no idea of the violence of these attacks until you experience it or talk to someone that has. While the animal is shaking you hard enough to separate vertebra and break bones its also swiping you with its "fists" at the same time. Theres no way you're going to manipulate small mechanical devices.
The most recent attack resulted in the death of a guy named Ned Rassmussen. Nobody witnessed it so we can only examine the facts that are apparent.
The cause of death was the severing of the major artery at the BACK of the abdominal cavity - make your own mental image, further details were not released.
It is known that he had shot a deer, he waved to his friends and indicated he was going to pack it back to camp.
He was found two days later. His rifle had bear hair stuck to the muzzle and a fired round in the chamber. He put up a fight. It must have been something like Moe's attack. He was either boning out the deer or packing it when he was attacked. Neither the deer or his pack was found.

Heres the deal the way I see it.

#1. Don't hunt alone in bear country.

#2. Follow all the common sense rules about bears. Avoid them. Unfortunately, a lot of the rules don't make sense for hunters. You can't make noise and attach bells to your pack - if successful you're going to attach a pack of bloody meat to your body - hunting by its nature attracts bears.

#3 Always obey rule #1.

If you're hunting you already have a longarm of significant caliber. If you want to also carry pepper spray or a revolver, do so, but remember you're not (in most cases) going to be able to use it until you're already down. IF you're already down and have a partner nearby it would make more sense to get belly down and protect your vital organs and wait for your buddy to intervene with his rifle than to face the bear and try and use the revolver or pepper spray.
I carry pepper spray nowadays. I'm going to use if against curious bears or in threat displays where the bear tries to intimidate but isn't actually attacking.
I don't own a revolver of the type that would be useful for a bear though I've got my eye out for a good deal when one comes along.
I didn't mean to "break bad" on the Redhawk or the Raging Bull - they just don't fit my hands very well and I don't shoot them very well. I think they'd make an excellent choice for somebody else.



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
another thing not often mentioned is having dogs along, for early warning. I suppose some of the bigger breeds that are genetically closer to their wolf ancestors might have the courage to harass the bear, but all I would want is 15 seconds lead time. with the capabilities of modern weapons, I believe man can dominate any animal *given early enough warning*. thus my thoughts on dogs. awhile ago I e-mailed back and forth with a Alaskan who had a 1/2 dog 1/2 wolf sort of hybrid, that he felt was an excellent "bear alarm system". I believe the US Park Service is trying Karelian Bear Dogs (a Finnish breed) to locate and harass bears lurking around campgrounds.

couldn't find anything either from Herrera on the web, but here's a few links; http://www.corp.direct.ca/cabc/index.html http://www.state.ak.us/local/akpages/FISH.GAME/wildlife/geninfo/game/bearfax.htm
 
I'm on my third cup of Sumatran and feeling "chatty" so I'm going to run on a bit more about maulings.

I hope this doesn't sound whiney or anything but I want to list the injuries that I got in my attack as a way to illustrate how violent and fast a bear in attack mode is. I have no lasting damage except for numbness in my head and left leg - I'm fine. The numbness in my head is on the OUTSIDE, thank you!

My attack lasted from 10 to 20 seconds (it seemed like hours to me) according to my friends who witnessed it.
In those few seconds I had the following injuries:
I was partially scalped, a flap was torn off from my along with "tears" that ran in every direction. right eyelid up to the crown of my head and then down to me right ear.
My right eardrum was ruptured.
My right hand "avulsed" down to the bone on the palmar surface.
My right triceps was severed.
My left buttock and leg down to the calf was just "tattered" with multiple bites that took out whole mouth-sized chunks of meat - these chunks were "ripped" out and left tears that run in every direction.

I had numerous other raking injuries, bruises and lighter injuries all over my body which weren't too bad because I was lucky enough to be wearing a gore-tex jacket that mitigated that a bit. I had a frame pack protecting my back and neck.

My left leg looks like a road map of New Jersey. The scars on my face just look kind of macho. Everything works fine.

All of that was done in the time It took my friend Chuck to run up 40 or 50 yards and shoot her off my back.

I hope that illustrates in some way why I put more faith in having a good partner than in carrying a sidearm or spray. Theres just no way you're going to employ them in a full out attack. It would be handy to have something. Maybe your partner chokes, maybe your partner is attacked first and then the bear gets you down. A handgun or spray might make a good last-ditch defense in an attack but theres a whole lot of things I'd put ahead of that.
If you do carry a sidearm, I hope you load it with Garrett cartridges because you don't want to just make the bear mad.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
After a few glasses of Sumatran, are you sure the numbness is only on the outside?
:-)

[This message has been edited by Sambonator (edited December 04, 1999).]
 
keith rogan, i saw your web site and found it extemely sobering. glad you
survived and able to drink sumatra.
those pictures sure show some beautiful
country.
 
Ivanhoe - Thanks for the sites, excellent up to date attack info available. By the way, his name is spelled Stephen Herrero. I was able to locate an email address for him and asked for his site address. Will pass it along if I receive a reply.

I am learning that there are great differences between responding to black vs. grizzly bear threats or attacks. Within that, there are 3 kinds of encounters (1. defensive/agressive, 2. predatory, 3. habituated) that require different responses in order to avoid an attack or survive one. The effectiveness of pepper spray even depends on the type of bear and encounter. Geeez, it sure is getting complicated therefore I ordered two books from Amazon 5 minutes ago.
1. Bear Attacks : Their Causes and
Avoidance by Stephen Herrero, and Bear Attacks: The Deadly Truth by James Gary Shelton.

This has been a tremendous thread, beats the crap out of "where can I get hi-cap mags' or "why is my Kimber jamming?"

[This message has been edited by George F (edited December 05, 1999).]
 
Randy-
Welcome to the Firing Line and our least supervised forum. Looks like you stepped in it, though I don't find your posts to be a veiled advertisement.

We've seen Peter Pi, Kevin McClung, Scott Evans, Fernando (Triton Ammo), Paul Harlow, Gale McMillan and a host of others here at TFL. You each sell what you believe is most effective. Id be surprised if you didn't tout your philosophy. This is neither advertisement nor spam.

Rich
 
Please pass along that Herrero site if you find it.

Thanks to all that have complimented my bear web site.

The hunting/predatory attack vs the territorial or fear driven attack works like this -
The hunting attack (normally associated with black bears) is normally a long and drawn out affair. The animal stalks you, it may make short charges to get you to run - its trying to test you. It may run up and swipe you and run away. Its hungry and you're food. If you lay down and "play dead" you've just written your own death sentence.

The territorial attacks are associated with both types of bears but are much more common with the brown/grizzlies. These are the classic "sow with cubs" attack or the type of attacks related above that occurred here on Kodiak where the human was just "in the way" when a bear wanted the hunters deer. They happen with lightning speed and are normally a surprise affair.
I tend to think in terms of these types of attacks because browns and grizzlies are less likely to actually hunt humans, though it does happen. We don't have black bears here on the island.
You have a lot more options with the hunting attacks because you have time to draw weapons or pepper spray, make a few plans, etc.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Okay, so birdshot to the face isn't such a hot idea.
How about carrying (in addition to spray and firearms) a pepper/OC grenade?

If the bear is posturing and making a show fifty feet away you either have to shoot, or jump around hoping to change the bears mind or nothing. Spray won't reach nearly that far. Running is a no-no. If you do nothing the bear may retreat, or if curious may come closer.

You could toss the grenade out to it and hopefully the bear will buzz off.
Any merit to this?
-Kframe
 
Kframe...

Doesn't sound like a bad idea, if you aren't where the wind will blow at you.

However, considering the morons nee political leaders and heads of regulatory agencies, I hardly think they would allow us to buy, make or possess anything that we can throw and it goes boom. They'd rather see us dead and steal 2/3 of our kids inheritance

This thread is over 200K, takes forever to load. I'll lock it and start part 2
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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!



[This message has been edited by DC (edited December 05, 1999).]
 
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