Handguns and bear defense

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To all,

If you haven't visited Keith Rogan's website, please do yourself a favor and go over there.

I've had close encounters with bears (including one 300-400 lb. black which was 1" away from my face, sniffing me while I slept) but nothing brings the danger home like Keith's dialogue and photographs.

I think he and Dr. Rob have the right ideas, and I'm glad to learn about Randy's rounds (although I wish the pitch was a little less obvious).

It's stuff like this that make TFL a wonderful place to visit.

Cheers,
Roon

PS: Dr. Rob, My father was stationed in Kodiak during WWII, and I heard wonderful stories about it, including how he always had a case of whiskey under his bed. (He ran the Chief's Club! :D)

[This message has been edited by Joseph (edited December 02, 1999).]
 
From what I can gather, people generally get killed by bears for the following reasons.

1. The bear is very hungry and the people have food, or if the bear is hungry enough, the people are considered to be food.
2.The victim has surprised the bear.
3.The bear feels threatened and retreat is not an option. Cubs nearby, bear cornered, territory issues, etc.
4.Sick bear.

Some things can be done to avoid many of these. If with a buddy, converse as you walk. Or whistle to yourself. Some folks advocate having something jingly on your pack.
Of course, if you're hunting and trying to be quiet the above is not available.

The trunk of your car twenty feet from your tent is not a good place for storing food. You have to take the time to hang the food from a tree, preferable a couple hundred yards from camp.

Know the area and the population. Have there been recent bear/human conflicts? Is there evidence of a sick bear or a bear that has decided that soft, pink and juicy people are better than fish? Ask at the ranger station or area sheriff's office.

Don't get stupid and inattentive. Sure, the area is beautiful, but don't let your guard down. Maybe you're being followed by a predatory bear. The predatory bears often follow (stalk) humans for a while and at some point, if they see no consequences, attack quickly. Check to see if you're being followed. Keep an eye out for scat. If you see an adult bear, look all around for cubs. If you see cubs you can be quite sure an adult is nearby.

There was a thing on TV last night about a bear attack. Man and women walking in woods. Bear came over the hill and looked at them. The people played dead. The bear walked up and dragged off the female human while the male went for help. (Tapping the bear on the head with a stick didn't stop the bear.) When authorities came the woman was dead.
They had no pepper spray. I don't know if they jumped up and down and yelled or if they immediately laid down and curled up.
The commentator said that the bear sized up the sitation, received no adverse action and decided to have dinner.

Maybe you could throw a rock at a lone bear if it's far away? Slingshot? Not to injure it so it gets mad, but to annoy it so it leaves?

How about #6 or #8 shot from a cylinder bore 12ga. to the face if the bear charges? If the thing is blind it'll have a hard time killing you. I know that's not as humane as killing it with a couple slugs, but slugs may not stop an attack. The bear would need to be killed later by you or a warden if you successfully blinded it.

Oh yeah, don't run. That triggers a chase instinct in all kinds of animals. They can't help but run you down.

Anybody want to support or "shoot-down" my birdshot comment? It may be a dumb idea, I don't know. Please comment.
-Kframe
 
Well as a hunter I'd say if you are GONNA shoot then shoot to kill. A wounded animal is FAR MORE dangerous than a healthy one, it will act unpredictably and is full of endorphins and adrenalin. God forbid that wounded (sick) animal goes off and harms someone else.

Dr.Rob
 
Regarding pepper spray:

How does one tell the difference between black bear droppings and grizzly (or Kodiac) droppings?

Black bear's smell like berries and grizz smell like pepper...
 
Ankeny: Before you start suggesting that I am some kind of Clintonesque liar, perhaps we could review the events that led to the Wyoming Grizzly Bear Team deploying our ammo for self defense. Back in early 1995 GUNS & AMMO (and no this is not an attempt at promotion) did a feature article about bear stopping calibers. In that article the writer Kevin Steele measured the penetration of a variety of calibers including the 375 H&H and our loads in 44 Magnum and 45-70. To make a long story short the results supported the position that the 44 Magnum was indeed a very viable bear stopper. Shortly after that hit the newstands, I received a call from I believe his name was Mark or Mike Bruscino. It was this gentleman who related to me the business of the 375s and their desire to carry something more portable that could still get the job done. As a result of this we sold them our 44 Magnum ammo. Since no one is going to be shooting bears in self defense with any great degree of frequency, the purchase they made at that time was sufficient until their last purchase earlier this year. And as I stated previously, the guy who handled that purchase was D. Moody. However, our discussion this last time was brief, and I didn't inquire or receive information from him regarding the issues I discussed with Mr. Bruscino, as those issues had already been delt with. I don't recall any comments from Mr. Bruscino regarding the use of pepper spray, probably because the subject didn't come up or pepper spray hadn't become popular yet (back in 1995).

Is it possible that in my conversation with Mr. Bruscino some 5 and 1/2 years ago that he said they were using 338s not 375s, I suppose so. However, that is a pretty small point of contention, and it may have been that 5 and 1/2 years ago that the 375 was what they were using. But it is hard to be sure regarding this as it was a small point in our discussion.

The whole point of introducing this topic was that handguns can be successfully deployed against bears, not that they are necessarily superior to heavy rifles. I made that clear in a previous reply.

However, in your efforts to discredit me you seem to have proven my point, which is that the 44 Magnum properly loaded is a viable bear gun, even for grizzlies. If it were only good as an anal suppository as many of the writers in this forum state, then the guys at Wyoming's Grizzly Bear Team would have to be regarded as foolish as you regard me. Didn't you find that they carry our ammo for defense against bear attack? I thought I read that in your most recent comments. If they use rifles for dispatching bears on the list of bad bears, then so be it. It is however, extremely significant that they carry 44 Magnums with proper hard-cast bullet ammo for close-quarters protection in the "real woods."

Again, that supports my contention that the 44 Magnum is a reasonable choice when properly loaded. Your attempt to discredit me and the obvious ranker in you discourse is completely unnecessary, as no offense or bending of the facts was intended by me. I simply have been attempting to describe how the 44 Magnum can be utilized for dangerous game, not that it is superior to all other devices. Best regards, Randy Garrett
 
randy,thankyou for letting me know about
the availability of your ammo. the emphasis of all this is the importance
of having cast core bullets and not
hollowpoints or fmj,be it 44mag or 45 or
454 etc. 2nd the handgun should be a
backup to a very powerful rifle or 12g
shotgun. pepper spray or better yet a
flame thrower and handgrenades would be
fine for me. i do like mark's idea about
saving the last bullet for oneself if all
else fails. i would make a happy face but
don't know how, so happy trails!
 
Dr. Rob,

We see eye to eye on the issue here. The one fear I express on my web site is not of getting mauled again, but rather that someone will misinterpret the lessons and overreact by shooting a bear out of fear. A bear shot in a quick situation like that is more often a wounded bear than a killed one - at least when speaking of our very large bears here.

Wounded bears are bad news.

The bear that mauled me was literally shot off my back by a friend and then shot again as it charged him. It apparently survived the shots (they're very tough animals). Less than a month ago a man was killed by a "large dark bear" in almost the precise spot I was mauled a year ago. They are identifying this animal as a male, but you can't really tell a large sow from a mid-sized male and I suspect that this animal may be the same one that got me, perhaps crippled up and ornery from the shots we inflicted on it.
Theres lots of other shot up bears out there in the hills and it just makes them that much more dangerous.
Bears will do some amazing things. One of their favorite activities is a threat display of woofing and ground pounding that will age you about ten years - these displays almost never result in an attack but frequently an observer will lose their nerve and start shooting. And another crippled up bear is out there to jump on a fisherman or hunter at some later date.

In situations where you really gotta shoot em, kill em! And thats where Mr. Garrett and his cartridges come in. With a bear you need a big heavy slug that will bust bones and penetrate as far as possible - out the other side would be ideal! Check out Remington, Federal, etc - nobody else makes anything like these loads.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
I need to get a bigger eraser, adios to this one too.

[This message has been edited by Ankeny (edited December 04, 1999).]
 
Not really a flame, but why are people so intent on analyzing and corroborating Randy's every statement? What has he done to merit such stiff cross-examination?

I am glad to have someone with his expertise posting here. Shake
 
kframe, birdshot? No, not a good idea but you already provide the answer in your own post.
Better to kill the animal than have some wounded and dangerous critter wandering around.
Nobody is likely to find the bear, it'll just blunder around and create havoc.
The bear that got me was never found, nobody even looked for it even though it had two hits from a .300 mag.
The bear that just killed a man here a few weeks ago (possibly the same bear that got me), same deal, its wounded (again) but nobody is going after it and it would be a waste of time if they did.
To just go out in the woods and hunt bears is a tough hunt, to look for a particular bear is asking the impossible.
Those bears and many others are wandering around out there, crippled up and in pain. They're dangerous and if you run into one you'll want lots of gun.
If they'd have been hit with enough gun in the first place they wouldn't be creating a problem. Or in some situations, if some knucklehead hadn't panicked and shot them at all there wouldn't be a problem.


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
This has been an excellent thread with the exception of the war of words and intent. Hopefully that can be over with now?

This has been a real eye opener for me. I frequently hike in Pennsylvania mountains and always pack a .357 loaded with 158 gr jhp +P from Georgia Arms. You can bet I'll be carrying pepper spray also for now on.

I don't own a .44 mag, therefore what would be the most effective .357 load for bear defense, or am I completely wasting my time there? In PA we only have black bears (not that I would welcome a fight). But has anyone ever hear of black bear attacks? I've only heard of brown, griz, kodiak,or polar.
 
Randy,

Any thoughts of developing "hard penetrator"
in .357 magnum? It's probably not going to be "heavy" enough, but may be you have some
ideas on what can be done? I would be interested to obtain some "high performance" ammo for my Ruger GP-161, I think this revolver can handle a lot of stress.
 
Ankeny: what do you say, lets bury the ax. It should be pretty obvious that I wouldn't have directed you to Mr. Moody if I were intentionally distorting the facts. Obviously a guy as aggressive as you would certainly call someone for such stupid act, so take my word for it, it was my understanding at the time that they were getting rid of their rifles. As far as aggressive guys go, that's fine because nobody likes wimps! Fair enough?

As to you folks with the 357s, I just think that is asking too much of the handgun. Those are fine guns for blasting bad guys, but they are distinctly small for dangerous game.

Best regards, Randy Garrett
 
George F, yes there are black bear attacks. I seem to recall that black bears actually kill more people than grizzly/brown bears. as I understand it, the big bears attack because of turf intrusion, whereas blackies attack for predatory reasons.

Keith, thanx for injecting real value to the discussion. I have been wondering about the DA/SA issue, and your comments verified my concerns. along those lines, a critical equipment issue that I never see discussed, is the need for a good-quality combat-style holster and rigid belt. if draw time counts, then hikers need to learn from the lessons of urban gunfighters, and invest in top-quality carrying gear. I do wish somebody would make a 5" .45 Colt or .44 Mag DA revolver based on a SA-style frame (for strength). I don't much like having a crane setup on a "heavy gun." sort of like the BP cartridge guns of the late 1800s from Colt and S&W.

Mr. Garrett, there is a long history of aversion to advertising on BBSes, Usenet, etc. Its a slippery slope, so folks who are experienced with online discussions tend to be a little too proactive in policing it. Given what's happened to many Usenet discussion groups, being "anal" about ads is understandable. After re-reading your posts to this thread, there is too much value there to ignore, but you could avoid ruffling so many feathers by referencing hard-casts in general instead of "my Hammerheads" (which you did once or twice). Minor wording change, but should allay the concerns of most.

And folks would probably enjoy reading technical articles presenting your penetration and ballistics tests, especially if there is enough general info so that readers can get a broad understanding of cartridge and bullet selection issues, so they can make good choices regardless of supplier.
 
What would the the possibility of a hard cast SWC in 45 Super or 460 Rowland be on these fuzzy creatures? They may not be ideal but they may be a "better than nothing" very light weight set up for a hiker or backpacker.
 
George,

Black bears attack about the same number of people as brown/grizzly bears. That sounds as if blacks are just as bad, but you have to remember that blacks outnumber grizzlies at least 100 to 1 and only account for half the attacks.
Thats the good news, the bad news is that if you do get attacked by a black bear its likely to be actual hunting behavior and you are far less likely to survive. Most people survive brown/grizzly maulings because its territorial or fear-driven in nature, once you're downed or unconscious they usually move off. With black bears they begin feeding at that point.
A .357 will kill a black bear but you'd be far better off with a .44 mag or a .45 Colt.

------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan



[This message has been edited by Keith Rogan (edited December 03, 1999).]
 
Ivanhoe and Dan,

I don't think there really is a "best choice" in a handgun. I reject single actions because of the thumb-cocking.

I've tried the DA Redhawks and the Taurus Raging Bull and find them awkward, poorly balanced and with lousy triggers.

I really like the S&W Mountain Gun but its not designed to hold up to heavy loads for extended shooting. I think it may be the best choice if you limited your practice to light loads and saved the wrist busters for the real thing.

I'm intrigued by the .460 Rowland that Dan mentions. I'm a big fan of the 1911 and this conversion is both reasonably priced and fairly hot.
The problem is they limit the bullet weights to about 250 grains and thats a bit marginal for our purposes even if you could get your 1911 to feed a good flat-nosed cast bullet - I think it would make a better deer hunting pistol than a bear defense gun.



------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Ankeny,

I hope you guys do bury the axe here. This has been a fascinating thread and quite educational aside from the occasional sniping.

I don't think Randy here is looking to advertise his product. Theres what, a dozen people on this thread? Surely, he'll make all of six bucks if someone becomes a customer...

He's trying to discuss bear defense cartridges with people who like guns and hopefully have some insight. Hell, heres your chance to pick his brain or toss out an idea. Why quibble about whether some F&G guy used a .375 or a .338?

People like Jeff Cooper are describing the charging lion turned inside out with a Garrett 45/70 load, he's getting all the press he needs.

Now, help me to badger him into creating a factory .45 Colt load thats worth a ****! Lets do something useful!


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
This has been a very educational thread. Would a S&W629 be better than a Ruger Redhawk then? A 5.5" redhawk seems ideal but then Keith says they aren't balanced well and the trigger isn't too nice. Those of you who have experience with both, could you give me your opinions on which .44 would be the better please? Thanks.
 
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