Handguns and bear defense

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Keith,
There's a lot of us reading this thread, but will in all likelyhood never encounter anything larger than a UPS truck in the big and brown catagory, and as such have no reason to post to it. I agree with shake,let the man speak his piece. This thread is a way different that the typical "I'm going on vacation in bear country, what handgun should I buy" post that is so common and revolting(at least to me). Just my .02

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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
Do what you C.A.N.

http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/cansite/can.html
 
jesus... will someone tell Garret the used car salesman to take his sales pitch somewhere else... this isn't a free outlet for your advertisement... Show some respect and GET LOST (unless you want to talk about something that DOESN'T include you thorwing a sales pitch)
just my opinion
 
You're right Hal, there's a lot more of us reading this thread than meets the eye. I for one, am very grateful for all the good information I'm gathering here from Randy and from certain others.

The reason this topic is of special interest is that we had a bear "encounter" on our last TFL shootfest/campfest in West, by God, Virginia. It kept us up all night. Only Mykl was actually prepared with the right gun - a 45-70 Guide Gun. I had a '94 in .45 Colt with 250 gr SWC that I think would have been a fairly good "deterent". But, when I got home I loaded several Laser-Cast 300 gr TC's with 20 gr 296 and tested them in my Ruger SRH. I was surprised at how relatively light in recoil they felt. And I was also surprised that I put 2 out of 3 in the 9 or 10 ring at 50 ft offhand and rapid fire (I pissed off the guy in the lane next to me). Since most bears will be shot a lot closer than that, if necessary that they be shot at all, I felt good about that. I plan to up the 296 a little after I get a chance to chrono the current load. Anyway, the bottom line is I won't be caught in the woods again without some potent rounds. And I hasten to add we plan to take pepper spray and loose cayenne pepper to act as a first defense.

I have to add that I am surprised at the sniping at Randy. Rereading his first post, the only remotely sales pitch words were "proper heavyweight cast-bullets such as our HAMMERHEADs". And then several normally even tempered folks apparently took it all wrong.

Appended after reading Beretta Boy's post which he added while I was adding mine: Are you sure you want to be a "Peace" officer? 'Nuff said.

[This message has been edited by Mal H (edited December 03, 1999).]
 
The way I see this,this is a pretty specific thread, on a pretty specific topic, on a pretty specifc site. Mr G has the floor, and if he refernces a product he makes, so be it. The contributors to the thread are mostly in a position to put to use the information he hands out,at no charge to us, if I may add. Me. I'm just lookin thru the window. Never been in THE WOODS, and likely never to venture there. Keith almost got eat up by a bear, and I tend to put a measure of faith in what he says. Randy makes a bullet that he sells to people that may get eat up by a bear.
 
George F,
Cor-Bon makes hunting ammo for the .357 Magnum using 200 gr. Penetrator or Hard Cast bullets according to a 1997 price list I found. Velocity is 1200 fps/639 ft.lbs from an unspecified barrel. I have tested the penetration of 158 gr. SWC handloads a friend worked up. The bullets were extremely hard linotype and velocity very healthy even from a three and a half inch barrel model 27. Although the caliber would not be my first choice for bear defense, this load is far, far, far superior to any factory .357 magnum load I know of for penetration. If the Cor-Bon can compete in performance, it is probably one's best bet until Mr. Garrett decides to offer a "real deal" loading for the original magnum.

With all the talk here about the need for quick
shooting, DEEP penetration, and being pounced before getting off a shot, I think I may have found the perfect use for my SKS carbine with spike bayonet and steel core ammo. Now, if I could just afford to return to Alaska to do some fishing... ;)

[This message has been edited by JackNKoch (edited December 03, 1999).]
 
I live in Indiana, so the only bears I'm likely to run into are at the zoo, but I do work at the rodeo on occasion, and I think the same type of thinking about the hard cast ammo I would still rather have a large caliber rifle .375 H&H mag would probably be enough (Which is what the Coast Guard icebreakers carried for use on polar bears when I was in) I'm not sure what the effects of pepper spray would be on a charging bull, and I am not going to volunteer to test it.

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"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." -Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8.
 
Come on, guys. Cut Mr. Garrett some slack. Its not as though he refered to his ammo by name, complete with price per box, in every post. I think he was just using his ammo as a baseline of what people should look for when choosing a caliber/bullet for defensive purposes against bear. And if any doubt the effectiveness of his ammo, although I've never had the pleasure to shoot/carry any, if his ammo is held in high reguard by the people in Alaska, who deal with big, dangerous bear everyday, well, thats good enough for me.

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
 
To Beretta Boy, Akeny, Ivanhoe, CX2, Pete80, Dr. Rob, Shooter Dave and all you guys recommending that I shove my revolver up my ass. I entered this forum for some mental exercise, not to promote my ammo. When I want to do that I simply send out a few boxes of ammo to various gunwriters and they provide me with all the press I need. However, this has been educational, being my first foray into a chat room. However, who needs the Spanish Inquisition when one can lead a more peaceful life simply selling ammo to those that read industry magazines and understand the issues relevant to the large caliber revolver? Anyway, thank for the education. Adios.
 
A few thoughts:

1) Didn't subsequent posters notice that the "file off the front sight" joke had already been used? Yes, it's a cute joke, and perhaps it helps put the ability of a handgun to stop a bear in perspective, but, sheesh, isn't using it THREE times in one thread a bit much?

2) Shouldn't we be specific about our points of disagreement so we can discuss them? If, for instance, I say that .44 Magnums are useless because I'm thinking about 180 grain JHPs, and you say that pepper spray is useless because you're thinking about one of the cheap keychain cannisters on sale at K-Mart, we could shoot nasty messages back and forth for days without settling anything.

3) Even if a bear attacks so suddenly and so quickly that I have no hope of shooting, spraying, or spitting at him, I hope to have a buddy or two with me who should be able to take action while I'm being mauled. And yes, of course, I'd much rather avoid or scare off the bears in the first place.
 
OK Folks.

If Mr. Garrett or any other member wants to share their views whether it is on their product or their experience, please permit it. Are we going to tell Gale McMillan that somebody makes better rifles or that he pushes his products too much? How about Geared UP!? As a member of TFL, Mr. Garrett has not, in my opinion, abused his rights and privileges. Remember, we as a consumers are not compelled to buy anything we don't like.

We're all here to learn and be the better for it. Personally, I have learned a lot from many of you and look forward to learning more. Thanks. Gary

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
Ankeny, Beretta Boy, Dr. Rob, et al.,

I am pretty darned amuzed by your calling Mr. Garrett on this sales pitch. When he wrote "I thought this was the handgun forum" (or something to that effect), I was tempted to write "I thought this was the want ads".

To give him his due, however, Mr. Garrett has started an interesting thread.

Oscar

[This message has been edited by Oscar (edited December 03, 1999).]
 
Randy, please don't go away or at least don't go away mad.

I have been playing out a scene that may have occurred on this board with some of these folks about 90 years ago. It goes a little something like this:

"We don't need a new gun like you've been working on. Everyone knows you can't improve on Sam Colt's design. In fact we really don't appreciate your trying to push your freakin' "automatic" on us, and what exactly is an automatic anyway? You can take it and shove it, because we don't want your "sales pitches" around here, Mr. Browning."
 
Considering the amount of second hand information and opinion often based on minimum experience and presented as fact throughout the Internet and considering the other manufacturers who post on the various firearms related sites, I can't imagine anyone objecting to the presence of someone like GARRETT who seems to produce an excellent product. I should think most of us would welcome the interchange of ideas with someone who is producing a much needed product for 44 revolvers and 45/70 rifles in particular.

After reading the posts, I can't see where GARRETT could be accused of self promotion or of recommending that a handgun is the optimal choice for a weapon against bear attack.

This IS a forum dealing with handguns and the primary function of a handgun, for me at least, is as a defensive firearm that can readily be carried in situations when a shoulder arm cannot. In bear country, I'd surely be happier with a 44 with some of GARRETT's loads than the "combat pistols" which other less enlightened souls have touted as woods guns in a number of other threads on a number of different forums. If I were hunting for the large bears, personally, I'll just stick with my old 51 vintage Model 70 375--but that 't'aint the subject at hand.

I for one hope that Mr. GARRETT will continue to offer input to this or to the other firearms forums on the Net.
 
This has been an interesting read, and offered some great info all round. Mr. Garrett's views are just that and he is entitled to those. I found nothing in his posts offensive and as far as ammo used against bear attacks; valuable, along with others who posted thier comments on this subject. There are no such dangerous critters where i live, and after reading once about a fellow who shot a grizzley bear with a 375 rifle from close range and it still took off, running some miles.. and they tracked into a willow thicket, well pucker factor had to be extreme... when they had to go in after it. The example of shooting the driver in the moving auto was excellent, i think very few people realize how fast a bear can move and be on top of you. Avoiding said situation would be best defense as Dr. Bob pointed out, but in case of attack i would want the hardest hitting weapon/ caliber i could control and fire acurately in such a situation that pertains to bear attacks. I would think that a 12 gauge shotgun with rifled slugs, in a "police type " ie.. short barreled version, would work pretty well. For a handgun application, 44 mag, 45 colt,[10mm?] 454 casull, something on that order would be a good bet. Kieth Rogan, ouch!!!! Glad your still with us and able to provide information your site on such matters.

[This message has been edited by 12-34hom (edited December 03, 1999).]
 
Wow. What have I missed out on by going out of town? What a donnybrook.
Well I guess I'll throw in some of my thoughts.
First a comment on the fellow who advocated birdshot and blinding a bear as a possibility. Yes. It can be done. But I don't recommend it. I won't go into great detail, but I took a novice out squirrel hunting many years ago in California. The idiot actually started petting one of two cubs. Mama bear did not like it, and I was in the way. I love the way old Winchester 97's can be shot so fast. I don't like 7 1/2s for bear medicine. The fish and game boys destroyed the cubs. I killed the mother bear on the spot, as she was blinded. It still makes me sick to think about it.
One day while at the Alpine Reloading Room in Reno NV, (no longer in business) the proprietor was ragging me about my Super "B" being a defense against bears. He said to shoot the bear 5 times, and save the last one for myself. I asked him why? He said, "It takes a long time to die from being disemboweled." That is something to think about.
Somewhere, amongst all my magazines, (I never throw any out, and they're piled all over the place) is an old Outdoor Life, or Field & Stream, or one of those of that ilk, that had an article with statistics on bear attacks of all kinds. One thing stuck in my mind. The author said that "99 times out of 100, a black bear will run away, and you might never even see him.. But it might be the 100th time for that bear." He also said that more people had been killed by black bears than all the fatalities by Grizzly and Kodiak bears combined. I think that there is probably a lot of truth there. First the blackie is a lot more common. Second, he is found living closer to man than the bigger bears.
Randy. I hope you won't be driven away by the rudeness of some of the members. I think that although I have not used any of your ammo, I believe it is the standard by which all others are to be judged. (Including my reloads and I'm partial as hell to them.)
We may disagree as to which method of heat treating bullets is best, but hey, that's what makes ball games. It's what works for each of us.
For those of you who don't think a 500 plus grain bullet is not effective. I loaned my 45-70 Marlin to a buddy who planned to hunt some dark timber. The ammo I gave him was loaded with a 525 gr. hard cast bullet. On a goining away shot on a nice bull elk, he placed the bullet at the root of the tail. The elk stopped as if it had hit a wall, shivered violently for about two seconds, and dropped on the spot. The recovered bullet looked as if it could be reloaded and used again. I still have this bullet.
Yes. I believe that heavy hard cast bullets are certainly useful against large animals with evil intents.
Paul B.
 
Mr. Garrett,

I guess I have a tendency to get a little carried away from time to time. Sorry if I came off as rude. TFL members (me included) have a tendency to opine in an unvarnished and sometimes undiplomatic manner. There is no intent on my part, however, to drive you away.

Best regards,
Oscar



[This message has been edited by Oscar (edited December 03, 1999).]
 
I think we all need to relax a bit. We don't need to turn this (priviously innocuous thread) into another 'caliber war'.

Beretta boy, grow up.

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Anarchism: The radical notion that I am the sole authority when it comes to deciding what's best for me.
 
First, I have personally had two encounters with grizzly bears and three with black bears. The grizzly bears wandered off as did two of the black bears, but one of the black bears ate all the fish that I was stoopid enough to bury in the snow about five feet from where I was sleeping. God that was dumb of me. He took about two bites out of each fish then pushed against my tent where I was fumbling for my glasses and my Model 57 Smith. He wandered off and was killed about an hour later by a Basque sheepherder about a mile from my camp.

I am a proponent of spray. The Wyoming Bear Team has worked very hard at promoting and studying spray and the evidence just seems to overwhelming to ignore. Prior to “converting” to spray, I carried firearms (still do for two legged vermin). For a couple of seasons I carried a 12-gauge 870 riot gun attached to my pack frame with Velcro. The shotgun was loaded with the nastiest rifled slugs I could find. The 870 was just too slow to deploy so I switched to a S&W Mountain Gun and later a to a Trail Boss. I loaded my .44 with 300 grain jacketed soft points before changing to a hard (and I mean hard) cast 240 grain bullet. While our bear team carries and promotes spray, they also pack .44 magnum revolvers. I am sure they spent countless hours researching the best load for their sidearm and they settled on Randy’s bullet. There is no denying, if you are going to pack a handgun, your best choice is a bullet like Randy’s.

Unfortunately, all this talk about bears, along with their ever-expanding territory has led to a proliferation of large caliber handguns around here. Our gun dealers sell all the 4 inch N-Frame Smiths they can get their hands on. The light weight Taurus revolvers in .41, .44, and .45 go like hot cakes. Inexpensive riot guns are not far behind. The woods are full of novice hand gunners who have stuffed thinly jacketed hollow point self defense loads into their hand cannons. Too many of these guys go afield with no knowledge of shooting and have a predetermined idea of perforating Yogi on sight. It is a bad deal all around. Guys like that need to attend a seminar put on by Dr. Rob and Keith. If they still want to pack iron, they better throw their Hydra-Shoks in the trash and buy some decent ammo from old what's his name.

If any of you guys ever come to Wyoming with the intention of going into bear management areas, bear inhabited backcountry, or even Grand Teton National Park, please use some common sense and try to avoid a bear encounter. While you are here, buy a can of 3 million-heat unit spray and carry it in a fashion where you can deploy it rapidly. Besides, It will work great on the neighbor’s dog when you go home. If you just can’t trust the spray, bring your Black Hawk or 629 and load it with Randy’s ammo or something similar. But please only use your firearm as you would if you were defending yourself from another human being, that is, use it if your life or that of another person is threatened. And if you go wandering around Teton National Park or Yellowstone remember that Bison have injured and killed more "tourists" in that neck of the woods than grizzly bears have. Also, let your consious be your guide if you carry on a National Park.

Hmmm…not to start another donnybrook, but I wonder what a .44 mag with one of Randy’s bullets would do to a big old ornery buffalo. We better not go there. :)



[This message has been edited by Ankeny (edited December 04, 1999).]
 
I was asked to check this out.

Let me relate a story:

I was about 15-16 and Dad and I went hog hunting. 30-30 and a .270. We tripped on a giant ass VW boar and being the dumb ass kid I was I started on him. Just pissed him off and he came at us like a freight train. We unloaded and he kept acoming... I was freaked and Dad dropped his rifle drew his .357 and told me to bare my .45....cadencewise...Dad ticked off our shots...fire....fire..he(boar) dropped about 15 ft in front of us
17 shots hit that boar...and he dressed out around 220-250 lbs. 7-8 shots were fatal

Point of the story? A backup gun pays. I was a dumb kid and tripped off something our longarms couldn't handle...without backup handguns who knows what would have happened. I don't believe Mr. Garret was advocating handgunning Kodiak Brownies, and though Dr.Rob and Keith do point out, it's the bear's turf....when it comes down to it, my mistake or not, I want to get out alive, so I'm packing a backup that I believe will work.
Personally, I like bears and wouldn't intentionally hunt them...but when I finally make my great Alaskan fishing trip...I will come home in one piece, with my damned fish and my Redhawk .44 mag

Just cuz the guy makes ammo doesn't necessarily mean his post is a commercial



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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
I know nothing about pepper spray, but after lingering here the last 3 days I obviously want to get my hands on some. What kind, where can I get it, how much, etc.?

By the way, if you haven't checked out Keith Rogan's 'bear mauling' website, do so. I found his story facinating. Are there any other similar sites out there?

Keith, how can I get more online info about black bear behavior, attacks, etc?
 
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