I am reminded of the advice I once heard a guide give someone who insisted on using a handgun for grizzly defense. He told the customer to take his .44 to a Smith and have him remove the front sight. When the customer asked why, he was told because it once hurt as much when the bear takes away your gun and shoves it up your arse.
Handguns and bear defense
- Thread starter Randy Garrett
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ShooterDave
New member
True story:
Guy I know went up to Alaska on a hiking trip a few years back and thought he would take along some bear
protection. Borrowed a friends .44 mag and took it to an outdoor store in Alaska to buy ammo. Fellow
behind the counter asked my friend if he needed to buy a gun for grizzlies (pointing to a rack of rifles behind
the counter).
My friend replied "nope, I already got one."
"What kind of gun you got?" asked the guy.
"I got a .44 mag," and then uttered something about it being the world's most powerful handgun.
"Hmmm..." considered the shop keeper who then wryly asked "did you file the front sight off?"
"No, why?" puzzled my friend.
"Awe, it's nothing, just doesn't hurt so much when that bear grabs the pistol from you and shoves it up your
a**"
[This message has been edited by ShooterDave (edited December 02, 1999).]
Guy I know went up to Alaska on a hiking trip a few years back and thought he would take along some bear
protection. Borrowed a friends .44 mag and took it to an outdoor store in Alaska to buy ammo. Fellow
behind the counter asked my friend if he needed to buy a gun for grizzlies (pointing to a rack of rifles behind
the counter).
My friend replied "nope, I already got one."
"What kind of gun you got?" asked the guy.
"I got a .44 mag," and then uttered something about it being the world's most powerful handgun.
"Hmmm..." considered the shop keeper who then wryly asked "did you file the front sight off?"
"No, why?" puzzled my friend.
"Awe, it's nothing, just doesn't hurt so much when that bear grabs the pistol from you and shoves it up your
a**"
[This message has been edited by ShooterDave (edited December 02, 1999).]
Keith Rogan
New member
Some of you probably know that I got pretty badly mauled about a year ago. I've thought a lot about bears and guns since then, and talked to a number of other mauling victims, guides and bear biologists here in Alaska.
First, for the lighter side - newbies to Kodiak are always ask about the "best gun for bear defense" and are generally told to pack a .22 hand gun.
When they express disbelief, its explained that the .22 is to "kneecap" whoever they're with because a bear will always take the slowest runner.
As for handguns and bears - theres 200 pound black bears, 500 pound grizzlies and 1500 pound brownies. Whats good "medicine" for one, isn't necessarily a good choice for another.
I live on Kodiak and tend to think in terms of the really big bears and... I've been toting a Marlin 45/70 all summer on my fishing trips. I don't think any handgun is a good first line of defense for the brown bears. Given a choice to ONLY carry a handgun or pepper spray and I think I'd opt for the spray.
Given a choice of longarm, and I'll stick with my 45/70, though a shotgun with slugs/buck would also be a comforting choice.
With grizzlies and black bears I think a handgun might be just the ticket. It leaves your hands free, is portable and is most likely adequate for the job. I would carry a double action revolver. In my mauling and those of several other people I've talked to, things just happened too fast and the attack was too violent to consider a thumb-cocking revolver. You might get a double action into play, a single action, highly doubtful. While down on the ground, I swung my fist at the bears nose and got the big pad of muscle below my thumb swiped off for my trouble. Picture sticking a revolver in his face and asking him to wait while you cock it. It would be found 30 yards away in the brush with your hand still attached.
These things happen so fast that the victims, who often are toting a rifle, never get a shot off. That was certainly the case with me.
Mr. Garrett, your loads have a terrific reputation here in Alaska. When are you going to put out a .45 Colt and a .454 Cassull load?
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
[This message has been edited by Keith Rogan (edited December 02, 1999).]
First, for the lighter side - newbies to Kodiak are always ask about the "best gun for bear defense" and are generally told to pack a .22 hand gun.
When they express disbelief, its explained that the .22 is to "kneecap" whoever they're with because a bear will always take the slowest runner.
As for handguns and bears - theres 200 pound black bears, 500 pound grizzlies and 1500 pound brownies. Whats good "medicine" for one, isn't necessarily a good choice for another.
I live on Kodiak and tend to think in terms of the really big bears and... I've been toting a Marlin 45/70 all summer on my fishing trips. I don't think any handgun is a good first line of defense for the brown bears. Given a choice to ONLY carry a handgun or pepper spray and I think I'd opt for the spray.
Given a choice of longarm, and I'll stick with my 45/70, though a shotgun with slugs/buck would also be a comforting choice.
With grizzlies and black bears I think a handgun might be just the ticket. It leaves your hands free, is portable and is most likely adequate for the job. I would carry a double action revolver. In my mauling and those of several other people I've talked to, things just happened too fast and the attack was too violent to consider a thumb-cocking revolver. You might get a double action into play, a single action, highly doubtful. While down on the ground, I swung my fist at the bears nose and got the big pad of muscle below my thumb swiped off for my trouble. Picture sticking a revolver in his face and asking him to wait while you cock it. It would be found 30 yards away in the brush with your hand still attached.
These things happen so fast that the victims, who often are toting a rifle, never get a shot off. That was certainly the case with me.
Mr. Garrett, your loads have a terrific reputation here in Alaska. When are you going to put out a .45 Colt and a .454 Cassull load?
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
[This message has been edited by Keith Rogan (edited December 02, 1999).]
Well, 1st let me say that I live in black bear country, and see them all the time when in the bush. Sometimes pretty close. Just because you "bump into" a bear, doesnt mean he's going to charge you. Many times they take off like a shot, and many more times than we probably know, they hear/smell us coming, and are long gone by the time we get there. But bear are, at best, unpredictable, so a person in the bear's habitat should be prepared. Pepper spray can work, I guess. If you want to take your chances that the bear doesnt charge with the wind in your face. Carrying a shotgun is good advice, IMO, in griz country, you probably wouldnt need it against a black bear. I like short carbine rifles. Having said that, however, I have a unique problem. I dont have the use of most of my left arm, so shooting a rifle quickly under stress is difficult. Thats why I carry my 5"629 Classic every time I go hiking, and its my back-up to my T/C ENCORE 30-06 carbine when I hunt. I feed it 325gr hard cast bullets, which should break down all but the worst of black bear. I think with that weapon, heavy hard cast bullets traveling pretty darn quick is the way to go. Given my circumstance, thats the most power I can handle effectively under stress one handed. Also, I've come to the conclusion, that if surprised/charged by an angry bear, most likely he'll do some sort of damage to my sorry hide. I accept that. How much damage he does is up to me and my chosen methods for countering his attack. Since I expect him to be literally on top of me anyways, hitting the bruin on the run (although preferable)isnt as important to me as knowing where to shove the bbl of my smith to do the most damage. You guys might think I'm nuts, but my conclusions are based on living/being in the same woods with something thats bigger, fast, and stronger, that would probably think I tasted pretty good. Does all this keep me out of the woods? Nope. 99% of the time, if you stand tall, not run, and LOUDLY tell the bear to get the hell out of there, he complies. Now cougar, on the other hand..... FWIW, guys
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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
FWIW, guys------------------
"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
Randy Garrett
New member
Hey you guys, I thought this forum was called Handguns and Pistolcraft. When I recommened a large caliber handgun loaded with proper hard-cast bullets, it wasn't because I felt revolvers were superior to rifles for such applications, it was because this is a handgun forum! Sure, if I had my choice I also would rather carry as big a gun as possible for dispatching an angry grizzly and it would be a rifle of large caliber, but again here we discuss handgun applications. And despite all the repudiations of the notion of the handgun as a bear stopper, it can be done and is done frequently. Unfortunately handguns gain their reputations based on commonly used ammo, and as such the 44 and all other large handgun calibers have bad reputations for such applications. However, loaded with proper hard-cast bullets they are quite formidable, as was demonstrated by our hard-cast bullet ammo during the four seasons it was the only 44 Magnum ammo legal in our home state of Washington for elk hunting with the 44 Magnum. We had literally hundreds of customers report shooting clean through our heavy elk on broadside shots even when the shoulders were targeted. You rifle hunters know just how hard it is to accomplish this with the rifles nomrmally deployed for elk, so don't close your minds to the possibilities of a caliber than can out-penetrate your 338s out to 100-yds, just because it comes from a firearm "normally" not capable of much performance. Firearms and cartridges are only as good as the bullets they push! It's not the size of the firearm or the power it produces that kills the game, it is the amount of damage that the target incurs that determines effectiveness. However, again, this isn't a forum for discussion of the best possible choice of firearm types, it is a forum for discussing what can be accomplished with the handgun, and all the guys that have accomplished these feats with properly loaded handguns would certainly have to scratch their heads in wonder over the cacophony of denouncements that this topic has inspired. Just because you good folks aren't used to hearing of what proper hard-cast bullets can accomplish in the revolver doesn't mean that revolvers in fact can't manage the feat. They can when deployed by a skilled revolver shooter using proper bullets! Best regards, Randy Garrett
oberkommando
New member
Yes Randy I enjoy 45 Colt shooting I have 3 of them, but shoot my 45-70 No 1 more. I'll have to try some of your loads. Thanks for interesting topic, see ya round.
well we'd probably be nicer if you weren't making such a sales pitch..
really your likelyhood of dying in a bear attack is far far far far less than falling down in the shower or being struck by lightning.. and you can avoid all those by prevention.
a wary consumer,
Dr.Rob
[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited December 02, 1999).]
really your likelyhood of dying in a bear attack is far far far far less than falling down in the shower or being struck by lightning.. and you can avoid all those by prevention.
a wary consumer,
Dr.Rob
[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited December 02, 1999).]
Randy Garrett
New member
Dr. Rob: Believe it or not, my comments really aren't meant to be a sales pitch. I refer to our products because they, and our customer's experience with them, provide real life experiences that better justify my opinions. Certainly our products aren't the only handgun loads capable, in my opinion, of doing the job, they just happen to be the ones I have the most experience with. Best regards, Randy Garrett
Randy, I'm not advocating using bird shot against a grizzly bear! I simply meant that a long arm (short barreled 12 gauge) would be the logical choice when you know your going into bear country. It's like when cops respond to a man with gun call, they will deploy the shotgun or rifle because they know that they may get into a shooting. Why undergun yourself if you already know that the potential to use that weapon is there.
Oh, yeah, if you carry a handgun into bear country, the best thing to do would be to remove the front sight. That way, when the bear shoves the pistol up your ass after you've shot it, the doctors can remove it with ease.
Oh, yeah, if you carry a handgun into bear country, the best thing to do would be to remove the front sight. That way, when the bear shoves the pistol up your ass after you've shot it, the doctors can remove it with ease.
Randy-Randy-Randy-
TFL should charge you advertising. What surprises me, is you refusal to admit this is a sales pitch. Next thing you'll be giving us your business number. If you really want people to believe you, take a page from Peter at CorBon and dish some samples.
I'm new to this forum, so I don't want to ruffle feathers, but come on.
TFL should charge you advertising. What surprises me, is you refusal to admit this is a sales pitch. Next thing you'll be giving us your business number. If you really want people to believe you, take a page from Peter at CorBon and dish some samples.
I'm new to this forum, so I don't want to ruffle feathers, but come on.
Going up against an enraged bear is an excellent example of where TACTICS is an important part of carrying a gun.
Part of mastering tactics is practice... what WOULD you do if charged by a "griz"?
Stand there and blaze away and hope you stop it? Seek cover, THEN blaze away at it?
A better way to deal with the problem is to carry adequate firearm(s) while in "bear country". Ideally, this would be a large calibre rifle or shotgun with the proper load. Then have a large calibre handgun back-up. Once you are properly armed, use the proper tactics to avoid placing yourself in a situation where you ARE facing a charging "Griz".
I've read enough about such encounters to know that such a situation is NOT where you want to be... even if armed appropriatly.
Part of mastering tactics is practice... what WOULD you do if charged by a "griz"?
Stand there and blaze away and hope you stop it? Seek cover, THEN blaze away at it?
A better way to deal with the problem is to carry adequate firearm(s) while in "bear country". Ideally, this would be a large calibre rifle or shotgun with the proper load. Then have a large calibre handgun back-up. Once you are properly armed, use the proper tactics to avoid placing yourself in a situation where you ARE facing a charging "Griz".
I've read enough about such encounters to know that such a situation is NOT where you want to be... even if armed appropriatly.
Keith Rogan
New member
Dr. Rob,
Surviving a bear encounter may not be a real hazard in your part of the world, but it is a genuine concern for many others.
In the last 30 days in this small community, one man has been killed and another maimed for life by bear. In the last 12 months statewide, theres been 4 people killed by bears and at least a dozen others mauled. Most of these people were doing everything right, minding their own business, etc.
Follow the link by my signature and see what I looked like after meeting a bear.
Similar situations exist with both bears and lions in parts of the northern rockies Pacific Northwest.
If its too commercial for Randy to plug his ammo, then I'll do it for him. He makes a 530 grain 45/70 load that surpasses ANYTHING available on the market for the purposes of stopping big dangerous animals.
I'm not as familiar with his .44 loads, but they use big flatnosed bullets (I believe of LBT design) at higher velocities than us handloaders can get at safe pressures.
Thats good stuff.
Come on up next June and catch some kings on the Ayukulik river with me. You'll see a dozen giant bears a day, and probably lose a couple fish and gain a couple gray hairs and have more fun than ought to be legal. After having a few close encounters you'll want to have a gun. When you think about loads you'll probably look to Garrett.
No, I don't work for Garrett Cartridges or sell it.
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
Surviving a bear encounter may not be a real hazard in your part of the world, but it is a genuine concern for many others.
In the last 30 days in this small community, one man has been killed and another maimed for life by bear. In the last 12 months statewide, theres been 4 people killed by bears and at least a dozen others mauled. Most of these people were doing everything right, minding their own business, etc.
Follow the link by my signature and see what I looked like after meeting a bear.
Similar situations exist with both bears and lions in parts of the northern rockies Pacific Northwest.
If its too commercial for Randy to plug his ammo, then I'll do it for him. He makes a 530 grain 45/70 load that surpasses ANYTHING available on the market for the purposes of stopping big dangerous animals.
I'm not as familiar with his .44 loads, but they use big flatnosed bullets (I believe of LBT design) at higher velocities than us handloaders can get at safe pressures.
Thats good stuff.
Come on up next June and catch some kings on the Ayukulik river with me. You'll see a dozen giant bears a day, and probably lose a couple fish and gain a couple gray hairs and have more fun than ought to be legal. After having a few close encounters you'll want to have a gun. When you think about loads you'll probably look to Garrett.
No, I don't work for Garrett Cartridges or sell it.
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
Randy Garrett
New member
Hey guys, if this was the way I promoted my ammo, I would have gone out of business a long time ago. My business is promoted by magazine reviews, apparently something you don't check out. As to all these references to shoving a pistol up one's ass, perhaps what you need is not a shotgun but a psychiatrist, as you are excessively anal.
F
freedomlover
Guest
Good comeback...
You tell 'em, Randy!
You tell 'em, Randy!
Johnboy, that's like that old joke:
Two buddies are out hunting when they spot a grizzly charging after them, and one of them bends down to lace up his shoes good and tight. The other one yells "What are you doing; you can't outrun him". The first one replies "I don't have to. I only have to outrun YOU".
Two buddies are out hunting when they spot a grizzly charging after them, and one of them bends down to lace up his shoes good and tight. The other one yells "What are you doing; you can't outrun him". The first one replies "I don't have to. I only have to outrun YOU".
Keith Rogan
New member
>>>>Having said all this I need to admit that the folks in Alaska in general don't feel the same way about pepper. For whatever reasons they seem to have had less than desireable results from pepper. I have never corresponded with any agencies in Alaska so I don't know what thier official position is on spray. Keith Rogan would probably know.<<<<
I don't know of anyone who has less than desirable results from pepper spray. I recommend it highly on my bear page though I've never had opportunity to use it myself - the stuff works, no doubt about it and I do carry it.
It DOES have its limitations though. Its not going to work on a windy day (about 90% of the time here) unless the bear is downwind.
The other issue with bear spray is that in full blown attack you are not going to have time to dig it out, pop off the safety cap and point the awkward little cannister at the bear. When I was mauled, I had a rifle in my hands and didn't even have time to get it to my shoulder before the bear was on me - thats the most common scenario of a bear attack.
Pepper spray has its application when you have a bear nosing around the edge of your camp or when a bear is just too close but undecided on whether to swat you or walk away (I've been in that situation a couple of times WITHOUT the spray). You can decide him to go in the other direction real fast with a blast of spray and its very effective in that situation according to users.
I LIKE pepper spray, I just don't think its the best choice in every situation.
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
I don't know of anyone who has less than desirable results from pepper spray. I recommend it highly on my bear page though I've never had opportunity to use it myself - the stuff works, no doubt about it and I do carry it.
It DOES have its limitations though. Its not going to work on a windy day (about 90% of the time here) unless the bear is downwind.
The other issue with bear spray is that in full blown attack you are not going to have time to dig it out, pop off the safety cap and point the awkward little cannister at the bear. When I was mauled, I had a rifle in my hands and didn't even have time to get it to my shoulder before the bear was on me - thats the most common scenario of a bear attack.
Pepper spray has its application when you have a bear nosing around the edge of your camp or when a bear is just too close but undecided on whether to swat you or walk away (I've been in that situation a couple of times WITHOUT the spray). You can decide him to go in the other direction real fast with a blast of spray and its very effective in that situation according to users.
I LIKE pepper spray, I just don't think its the best choice in every situation.
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
Robert the41MagFan
New member
It is ironic that last night on the Discovery channel there was a program dedicated to bear attacks. After describing how cute they are, they said that pepper stray was the best defense also for bear. They also said that it only works 8 out of 10 times. Don't like them odds to much. And like any other defensive tool, if you don't practice with that tool, it does not work all the time. How much does a can of spray cost anyway? The only reason they use spray first is because it's PC.
Bottom line, I am not politically correct, bear and cougar are no different than any BG on the street. They attack, I make them telescopic. That simple. Seen it, been there, done it.
I am on top of the food chain, not just part of it
Robert
Bottom line, I am not politically correct, bear and cougar are no different than any BG on the street. They attack, I make them telescopic. That simple. Seen it, been there, done it.
I am on top of the food chain, not just part of it
Robert
Kieth,
I admit alaska is like NO place else.. you see bears every day. Like I said they way they act there may not be the way they act here. I have been wanting to go to Alaska for years. My dad was stationed at Fort Yukon (16 miles north of where the arctic circle & the yukon river meet) in the late 60's and has told me all kinds of amazing stories. in cluding a few about bears. (yikes)
Fishing for salmon? Stalking caribou?? What does it take to get to Alaska??
Dr.Rob
PS while I respect everyone's right to self defense.. we are the ones intruding in THIER living rooms.. (bears raiding OUR garbage dumps aside)in many ways WE are the bad guys as far as they are concerned. Predators deserve our respect and admiration as one of our great natural resources. there is a huge difference in Hunting a predator.. and screwing with one out of fear or malice.
[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited December 02, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited December 02, 1999).]
I admit alaska is like NO place else.. you see bears every day. Like I said they way they act there may not be the way they act here. I have been wanting to go to Alaska for years. My dad was stationed at Fort Yukon (16 miles north of where the arctic circle & the yukon river meet) in the late 60's and has told me all kinds of amazing stories. in cluding a few about bears. (yikes)
Fishing for salmon? Stalking caribou?? What does it take to get to Alaska??
Dr.Rob
PS while I respect everyone's right to self defense.. we are the ones intruding in THIER living rooms.. (bears raiding OUR garbage dumps aside)in many ways WE are the bad guys as far as they are concerned. Predators deserve our respect and admiration as one of our great natural resources. there is a huge difference in Hunting a predator.. and screwing with one out of fear or malice.
[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited December 02, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited December 02, 1999).]
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