Handgun Construction Methods and Materials

[Wildalaska]

I have observed its likes worn by many other working men.

I did gouge a Rolex crystal once while using a breaker bar on a particularly rusty bolt on a 76 Toyota Landcruiser.

The good news was the watch saved me from a wrist gouge.

WildgruntgruntwackAlaska ™

Please Mike do the Korth so I can avoid the nightmare of having to admit that anything French is quality, other than their women and cooking

 

[Wildalaska]

Let's hear them on behalf of pot metal.

Its lighter!

WildbeatthatAlaska ™

 

[45_Shooter]

Many of the pre-war Magnums that I examined for prospective purchase approached this measurement. Some of them exceeded it. It bothered me that this excess may have attested to frame stretch.

When you consider that the N-frame is capable of withstanding power levels double that of the .357, I seriously doubt it. If there truly was frame stretching then the timing would also be horrible, endplay ridiculous, etc.

You see that happen to K-frames but the N-frame's weakness is more often in the hand/ratchet area which is readily repairable.

Chances are those Model 27's/Pre-27's with large flash gap were built that way; it still happens today and isn't really much of a problem in most cases.

"The frames on S&W are not heat treated thus are pretty soft." I could not think of a better authority in this technical matter. However, I suspected that at issue here is not the heat treatment per se, but the difference between the ensuing surface and deep hardening. The only revolvers that I knew to use all forged and deep hardened components were the Manurhin MR-73 and the second generation Korth. I also noted that some of the guns chambered for Linebaugh's own cartridges used frames cast by Pine Tree Castings in 17-4PH (precipitation hardening) steel alloy and deep hardened. I surmised that the heat treatment on forged S&W frames ran only skin deep.

I'm an engineer by trade and have had my share of training in metallurgy and practical application. Surface hardening is not a prochedure that is appreciably cheaper than through hardening; it's purpose is different. When you need a part that needs to have a degree of resistance to fracture and at the same time resist friction wear or impact forces, you call out a surface hardened part.

More than likely S&W is surface hardening their frames to increase safety in case of a catastrophic failure. The last thing you want in a case failure or similar is the entire pistol breaking like a sheet of glass, which is characteristic of through hardening. The vast majority of S&W's frames are not known for stretching anyway, so I fail to really see an advantage at all to a through hardened frame, although I see a negative safety aspect to it.

As power level increases, as in Linebaugh's case, to avoid making the pistol unduly bulky or heavy, and given the specialty application for which it is made, the use of deep hardening is better justified.

 

[larvatus]

Many of the pre-war Magnums that I examined for prospective purchase approached this measurement. Some of them exceeded it. It bothered me that this excess may have attested to frame stretch.

When you consider that the N-frame is capable of withstanding power levels double that of the .357, I seriously doubt it. If there truly was frame stretching then the timing would also be horrible, endplay ridiculous, etc.

The latter possibility agrees with the findings by another contributor, as quoted above:

In shooting heavier loads (180 grain, 165 gr., 200 grain) the yoke of the M28 bent as well as the ejector rod and the gun began to go out of time and spit lead.

I remain undecided on the issue of N-frame stretching. We need more evidence.

 

[B. Lahey]

You don't see them on the wrists of drywallers, welders, painters, assemblers, mechanics, etc.

I have worn my plain steel Rolex while working as an Animal Control dude, live-sound / recording knob turner, plastic factory bucket-hauler, and many other working-class jobs.

But nobody ever noticed because it's not fancy gold, it just looks like an average steel watch from a distance.

I bet you've seen them on regular folks' wrists, you just weren't observant enough to notice.

Hey larvatus, if you need to unload a Manuhrin after you do your fun tests, contact me. Please. I've got the French fever something fierce.

 

[tipoc]

I bet you've seen them on regular folks' wrists, you just weren't observant enough to notice.

True I just don't notice jewelery. Rare for regular folk to wear such anytime in the last 30 years though.

1911s, Walther PPK, Python, any S&W these are working guns comparable to the Timex and similar durable common watches for every day use. Quite unlike a Rolex, Pantages and other $4000. pieces of flash. How many folks on road crews wear a 3000.00 watch.

Note that jewelery is losing the poll by 44 to 21.

A well made gun that is durable and reliable will win over pieces of flash if the shooter is up to the task. Ruger Blackhawk will do. With a bit o work it will do better but it still ain't no overpriced Rolex.

There was never any usefulness to this thread to begin with and less as it goes.

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

Lavartus is a self described bloviator and troll...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Larvatus

OP began this "poll" by insulting any fella using a Glock or other polymer framed sidearm and anyone using a less than Rolex grade timepiece. To keep the pointless juice flowing he's willing to open debate on a linked thread on another forum on the question of cast steel. The point is to entertain his self and perhaps the Robin to his Dark Knight, WildAlaska. Much other than that no point to this thread at all.

tipoc

 

[ChicagoTex]

The point is to entertain his self and perhaps the Robin to his Dark Knight, WildAlaska.

Himself, maybe. And while Ken is getting some amusement out of this thread (and why shouldn't he?), don't lump him in. I've never seen Ken insult anyone for carrying a Glock, XD, H&K, P99, etc

Just because he likes and recognizes that fine forged steel guns that cost 3-4x as much are better, doesn't mean he hates you for having a Glock.

If you had a Bersa on the other hand...

 

[larvatus]

OP began this "poll" by insulting any fella using a Glock or other polymer framed sidearm and anyone using a less than Rolex grade timepiece.

A shameless lie. I never disparaged anyone based on their choice of sidearm or timepiece.

 

[Wildalaska]

Lavartus is a self described bloviator and troll...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Larvatus

I suggest you study this phrase, and take the time to read his writings.

Ut comœdi, moniti ne in fronte appareat pudor, personam induunt, sic ego hoc mundi teatrum conscensurus, in quo hactenus spectator exstiti, larvatus prodeo.


I would be honored to be Mikes Robin...anyone that can argue in Latin,. Russian and german gets my respect, even when he argues with me.

If you dont wish to be challenged, ignore his threads. Sometimes argument for the sake of argument can be a learning experience, especiually when it comes to being able to express oneself, since the expression of idea is as important as idea itself.

WildimwaiitngforthebersacrowdtochimeinAlaska TM

 

[DMMikey]

I'm surprised Lavartus rose to such an obvious goad. Being Ivy educated, I would have thought he would have recognized the source of my argument from overhearing blathering philosophy students on the edge of mental illness arguing with themselves or anyone who happens to pass by.
Of course, the real arguments arise when you start defining terms, such as something being "reasonably durable." What is reasonable? 170K rounds without showing wear?
How many years will it take the average shooter to reach that number?
What's accurate?
What's reliable?

It can get really silly. But silly is fun.

 

[kozak6]

How about this? It's not so much Timex vs Rolex, it's Timex vs no watch at all for years and years, saving up only to purchase a watch I'd be afraid to ever wear.

I'd love a barrel of Lugers and Sig P210's. Ain't gonna happen happen unless I win the lottery.

 

[45_Shooter]

I remain undecided on the issue of N-frame stretching. We need more evidence.

While I can't offer any new specific evidence, I can say that when studying the effects of metal fatigue under cyclical loading it was accepted that decreasing the force by half generally increased life by four fold.

F=MA, and considering the .44 Mag pushes roughly double the mass of projectile at the same speed, we can assume that a Model 29 experiences approximately double the force and one quarter the life that a Model 27 experiences, on average.

However, one may cite that early Silhouette shooters (some of the first customers to shoot thousands of rounds annually of full house .44 magnums , largely starting in the late '70's) complained of durability of the early M29 S&W. Only high volume shooters ever reportedly experienced this problem and it took 20 years to surface, so I'll use an arbitrary figure of 10,000 rounds of .44 magnum as the durability limit of an early N-frame (later durability enhancements were added starting with the 29-5, giving today's similar M29 greater life than previously)

When you also consider that the wisdom of the time (1935-mid 1970's) dictated that .38 specials should be used for the vast majority of practice, .357's only for 'business', the story changes even more dramatically. .38 Specials have identical bullet weights but a little more than half the velocity of a .357 Magnum. If we can assume that a bullet attaining double the velocity in the same length barrel imparts four times the force (F=ma; V1^2/a1 = V2^2/a2), results in .38 specials attaining 4x the lifespan of using .357 loadings.

It becomes obvious then that the typical pre-model 27 Magnums and Registered Magnums were mostly used with loadings that represent a cyclical loading life expectancy of 16 times that of a .44 Magnum version.

If we can assume that an early Model 29 S&W is able to be fired merely 10,000 rounds before failure, then the model 27/28 figure should survive 40,000 rounds of full house .357 magnums or 160,000 rounds of the more likely .38 specials, most likely quite respectable service life if my analogy that handgun frame life can be predicted using a cyclical loading model is correct.

 

[larvatus]

How many years will it take the average shooter to reach that number?

This question is biased in the matter at hand. People who go for whatever they think is the best, seldom think of themselves as average. Conversely, those who settle for mediocrity of character have no reason to strive for excellence anywhere else.

 

[darkgael]

sweep

Michael - always interesting, though not always pleasant, to read your posts.
A question about the Manurhin - you have piqued my curiosity - from whom does one order the firearm?
I have a query in to Champlin Arms as I was informed that they dealt with the manufacturer. No response yet to that query.
Pete

 

[yrralguthrie]

Wasn't the question answered withing the question?

As a tool the Timex is at least equal to the Rolex.

As an accessory the Rolex beats the Timex.

Depends on what you want, a tool to get the job done or something to make a statement.

So far as construction methods...what good does it do to make the gun stronger than it needs to be? Again it's a statement or a bragging point. It makes little difference if a part is forged or milled if either way it will never break and always does the job. The way a part is designed and the quality of work is far more important than the material.

Larry

 

[fightingbard]

If I had only one handgun, it would definitely be a Rolex...
And my idea of Rolex would probably be a custom Les Baer in .45 or an unfired BHP Silver chrome in 9mm. But thats me anyway...

I have 3 handguns at the moment. I would not call any of them a Rolex. Plus none of them have a hammer and if I had one handgun it would also definitely have a hammer. But thats me anyway..

I may call my 870 a Rolex, meaning I would depend my life on it without any hesitation...

And I call almost all of my blades as Rolexes...


All the best

 

[Wildalaska]

As a tool the Timex is at least equal to the Rolex.

No. The Rolex will take far more punishment/

So far as construction methods...what good does it do to make the gun stronger than it needs to be?

I shot a S&W 39 loose due to sheer round count

WildtheguyintightsAlaska TM

 

[MrBorland]

I suggest you study this phrase, and take the time to read his writings.

Ut comœdi, moniti ne in fronte appareat pudor, personam induunt, sic ego hoc mundi teatrum conscensurus, in quo hactenus spectator exstiti, larvatus prodeo.


I would be honored to be Mikes Robin...anyone that can argue in Latin,. Russian and german gets my respect, even when he argues with me.

If you dont wish to be challenged, ignore his threads. Sometimes argument for the sake of argument can be a learning experience, especiually when it comes to being able to express oneself, since the expression of idea is as important as idea itself.

With all due respect, Ken, I've read his writings, and IMO, he needs a an editor. And one who would point out that good writing is effective writing that gets the point across, not writing that's a thinly-veiled attempt to express an ego and impress with erudition.

FWIW, I have some fancy initials behind my name, am on the faculty at a major university and often peer-review manuscripts for primary scientific journals - and the only thing I find challenging about Lavartus' writing is understanding his point. When I finally do, I often realize that he took several hundred words of repetition and bogus erudition to make a not-so-original point that could've been made in less than 10. FWIW, YMMV and all that.

As to his real point in this thread, I'm still unclear. I've been following it, but so far the only thing I've learned has been from 45_Shooter.

 

[Wildalaska]

FWIW, I have some fancy initials behind my name, am on the faculty at a major university and often peer-review manuscripts for primary scientific journals - and the only thing I find challenging about Lavartus' writing is understanding his point. When I finally do, I often realize that he took several hundred words of repetition and bogus erudition to make a not-so-original point that could've been made in less than 10. FWIW, YMMV and all that.

FWIW, I dont have fancy initials after my name, find much scientific (non physics/chemistry) writing pompously boring and frequently polemical, and I understand the Larvsters writing just fine (as long as it is in Engrish)

FWIW, YMMV and all that. Pynchon makes the Larvae look like USA today

Funny how some folks spend their time in a Larv thread spewing ad hominems against him rather than just responding to him.

Oh and Tamara and Mike: as to the aristocratic effect of the quality handgun.....you are BOTH right in your respective points.

Why did Custer carry English revolvers while the flea bitten, rotten toothed, undersized, filthy, uneducated, immigrant troppers of the 7th Cav all pack Colts?

Pattons Registered magnum anyone?

Peter Crouch, the stork striker, just got stoned THREE times on headers vs Birmingham. Go you Spurs! Give 'em 'ell 'arry! YidArmy 4 ever.

WildandneedimentionwhoisontopofthepremnowAlaska TM

CROUCH JUST SCORED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, NOW BIRMINGHAM COMES BACK!!!! *PUKE*

********************************!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*******************************
10 seconds left! SPURS score!!!!!!!! Birmingham goes down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!