Handgun Construction Methods and Materials

Is your handgun a Rolex or a Timex?


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I wouldn't sell my 1983 Tiffany-signed Explorer I Ref. 1016 for less than I'd have to spend on a nice Patek Philippe. Like many others in their tax bracket, Hans Wilsdorf's heirs have been hard at work cutting their costs in order to invest their earnings with Bernie Madoff. In fairness, they seem to have raised their standards since having their clocks cleaned by Walt Odets.

Well hell I wouldnt sell mine either:p

Especially since a new one is 5K..and aint as nice.....

Top of the line Neuhausen pistols routinely sell at Swiss auctions for a fraction of their original cost thirty years ago.

Are you telling me that a 1951 Armee 210 costs less now than it did in 1951 (in Switzerland)?

Manurhin MR73

O gawd...the French again:rolleyes::D

WildnononoAlaska ™
 
I'd guess both my watch, and guns, are some where between a Timex and Rolex. My watch is a Cititzen Eco-Drive and my handguns are S&W, Ruger and Springfield.

Don't want a Rolex, although I'm dying for an Omega Speedmaster but my wife isn't feeling it. My Springfield TRP is my crown jewel of my handgun collection and while it's not a Rolex, I'm happy with it.
 
Top of the line Neuhausen pistols routinely sell at Swiss auctions for a fraction of their original cost thirty years ago.
Are you telling me that a 1951 Armee 210 costs less now than it did in 1951 (in Switzerland)?
I said nothing about the price of the P49 in 1951. Compare the prices realized by Kessler to the price lists reproduced by Armbruster. For example, in 1986, you could buy a P210-1 for 2,620.00 SFr, a P210-2 for 1,765.00 and a 65 SFr surcharge for wood stocks, a P210-5 for 2,600.00 SFr likewise, a P210-6 for 1,895.00 SFr likewise, with a 10 SFr or a 245 SFr surcharge for a contrast or a micrometer sight, and a P210-L for 5,920.00 SFr to 9,345.00 SFr, depending on the engraving pattern and stock carving. Today, you can buy the production guns for a little less. In the case of the engraved pieces, you can luck out into buying them for less than half of their original prices.
 
Michael is our local proof that a Harvard sheepskin is no protection from being a victim of successful marketing. ;)
Would it be uncantabridgian to retort that the proof of a whistle flows from blowing it?
 
Viz: Charles II

Was that really necessary, Ken?!? :eek:
(Image not reproduced out of consideration for other TFL members).

My current CCW is a Dozier Arkansas Toothpick. In reality, a Timex. In my mind, a Rolex. I don't carry a handgun these days, but we could discuss Dozier blade steel (D2), Michael.

Richard
 
I've got a little of both...

I've got a Citizen Skyhawk that I wear as a dress watch currently, and since it's satin finished titanium, I rock my satin stainless Springer 1911 with it. Same with my every day watch, which is a Tissot T-Touch ( and it rocks something fierce!) with my Springer XD(M)9. Then I have a super sick G Shock that I wear when things get dirty. I normally wear a revolver (SP101 in .357) with that, because if I get super dirty, it'll still function. I like watches, and guns! I don't buy anything super expensive, not because I can't, but because I have to get them fixed a lot.:o My wife works at a jewelry store, so I get my watches for 15% over cost. I wish I could get my guns at that kinda discount....:(
 
Today, you can buy the production guns for a little less. In the case of the engraved pieces, you can luck out into buying them for less than half of their original prices.

So as an investment, SIG 210s suck:eek:

We are left only with intrinsic status accentuation.

Perhaps a CZ75 would suit my needs better:p

WildneenerAlaska TM
 
Was that really necessary, Ken?!?

The more youthful among us must realize that even deformed, incestuous, gibbering idiots can run countries....

Wait....we all know that...... all you have to do is read Congressional Quarterly or watch C-Span:D

WilddriftiknowbutcantresistAlaska TM
 
Drift? Drift?

I agree with Tamara. This whole thread is drift.
Does it consistently go bang when you pull the trigger?
Does it hit where you point it?
Is it reasonably durable?

Everything else is esthetics or convenience.
What you want to pay for it is up to you.
 
Is it reasonably durable?

Depends on what your defintion of durable is:D

To Willie the Pimp who will use it once and toss it away, the RG revolvers or a nickel plated jennings are reasonably durable:p

WildcontrastmoiwhomusthaveagunthatlastsforeverAlaska TM
 
Geez, I've never even heard of half the guns and timepieces you guys/gals are talking about. I need to get out more!! :p
 
Right now I don't have a Timex or a Rolex. I do have a Tag Heuer that keeps good time. Actually it's a knockoff with a Japanese quartz movement, but it looks enough like the real thing Jewelers are confused when it needs a battery. I've got a couple of Rolex look-alikes too.

I don't see what difference it really makes though. The hammer and pliers in my toolbox are not polished and never were. My handguns, for the most part, are not pampered either.
 
OMG!!!:eek: My freeking head hurts reading these posts:D My watch must be different, its made from fine CHINA, really thats what it says on the back CHINA:D

Being retired I don't wear a watch, so I don't care what time it is. When I was with the Air Force for 20+ I wore a BX issue low bidder special, most likely made by forced labor. I always have my cell with me and yup it has time on it, so I guess I wear a MOTOROLA.

As for guns, I have everything from CZ's to Sigs, Kimber, custom 1911's. My CCW guns are XD9 sub, CZ P-01, FNP 40cal. My hiking gun is usually an XD(m) 40, or a S&W model 19 with 180gr Partitions.
My favorite guns are LAR Grizzly 45win mag with 10mm conversion, Kimber custom shop 45, and CZ P-01.
 
Who's the fool?

What fool wears a Rolex to work?

When I was an infantryman the stainless steel Rolex Submariner was prized for its' toughness and rugged construction and pretty much every private in my infantry company in the 82nd Airborne Division either wanted one or already had one. At least half of the Sergeants did. I don't think any of them were "fools".

Decades later I'm an airline pilot and while I don't wear a Rolex watch many of my cohorts do. I don't think any of them are "fools" either.

Thoughtlessly judgemental comments like the above always set my teeth on edge.

Oly
 
To the OP: I seem to be drawn to both ends of that spectrum!

I have pistols like Pythons and high-end 1911s that are (to me at least) very much like a Rolex watch in that they're simply lovely to behold. They need to shoot however! And of course a Python or a 1911 does that quite well.

On the other hand I love my Hi-Point carbine and Kel-Tec pistol because they're fun and they're simply tools - value always sits well with me.

Lastly, my Springfield XD seems to be a bit of both. On the one hand it's simply an ugly tool designed to work all day every day, and it dang sure does. But much like a Sig it's so well made that certain parts of it really impress me as "made like a Swiss watch" and I admire that about it.

Just me talkin'!

Cheers,
Oly
 
Is it reasonably durable?
As a relative newcomer to revolvers, I embraced .357 Magnum, the chambering that arguably compensates for the lesser capacity of the wheelgun with superior ballistics. In looking for my first .357 Magnum revolver, I naturally turned to the S&W Registered Magnum. As I searched for it, I noted that the SAAMI advises us that 0.012" is an industry maximum for revolver flash gap. Many of the pre-war Magnums that I examined for prospective purchase approached this measurement. Some of them exceeded it. It bothered me that this excess may have attested to frame stretch.

As far as I knew, S&W forged its revolver frames from the 4140 chrome-moly and 416 stainless alloys. Whereas 416 is air hardening, although 4140 is classified as an oil-hardening steel, in a narrow section it is air hardening. Accordingly, I inferred that S&W performs a full-cycle anneal after forging prior to performing machining operations, because the material becomes hardened by cooling in the air. Factory literature suggested that S&W barrels and pistol slides were deep hardened, and in some instances also surface hardened. I wanted to know whether or not the frames were also deep hardened. I wanted to find out whether or not an S&W revolver frame was subject to plastic deformation in extended use.

Then I came across a statement by John Linebaugh: "The frames on S&W are not heat treated thus are pretty soft." I could not think of a better authority in this technical matter. However, I suspected that at issue here is not the heat treatment per se, but the difference between the ensuing surface and deep hardening. The only revolvers that I knew to use all forged and deep hardened components were the Manurhin MR-73 and the second generation Korth. I also noted that some of the guns chambered for Linebaugh's own cartridges used frames cast by Pine Tree Castings in 17-4PH (precipitation hardening) steel alloy and deep hardened. I surmised that the heat treatment on forged S&W frames ran only skin deep. My subsequent first-hand experience with several of their pre-war Magnums proved that that was the case.

Another contributor to this thread wrote elsewhere a while ago:
In a head to head test with the M28, which was made in 1978 the gun I mean, I did the shoot outs last year,the Korth had a slight edge in accuracy with some but not all loads of .357. It shot more accurately with all loads of .38 Spl. that I tried by about 1/4". In shooting heavier loads (180 grain, 165 gr., 200 grain) the yoke of the M28 bent as well as the ejector rod and the gun began to go out of time and spit lead. The Korth sailed through with no problems. It is a strong gun.
It followed that an upgrade in construction methods and materials enabled a boutique revolver maker to beat Smith & Wesson at their own game. However, my interests also inclined me towards sidearms designed and manufactured for service rather than entertainment, in the way Hans Wilsdorf paid a tribute to horological excellence by building the world's first "tool watches". So I turned towards another brand. I knew that Manurhin developed the MR73 in response to the failures of S&W .357 revolvers at the hands of the French counter-terrorist forces, Groupe d’Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale. GIGN shoots a lot. They found that S&W revolvers failed in their daily practice regimen of 150 rounds of Norma 158 grain .357 S&W Magnum ammo. Manurhin developed the MR73 for extended use with this ammunition. Its torture test was abandoned without appreciable wear after firing 170,000 full power Norma .357 rounds. Numerous published tests independently witnessed this capacity. French police armorers demonstrated revolvers that remained serviceable after firing a quarter million rounds. By contrast, the N-frame S&W revolvers that had served as the original development platform for .357 Magnum ammunition, were generally expected to last but a small fraction of this life span.

I shoot two Manurhins, a 6" dual caliber, early production revolver, and a 10¾" .357 MR73 Silhouette of slightly later Mulhouse production that I converted to double action.
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That Buntline Special is by far the most accurate centerfire gun that I have ever fired. It is good to know that it will remain so for decades to come.

I have several more Manurhins coming from Europe. I am arranging for their comprehensive mechanical and performance study in collaboration with a first-rate gunsmith and a police firearms instructor. My next project will be a Korth.

Life is too short to shoot soft guns.
 
Thoughtlessly judgemental comments like the above always set my teeth on edge.

Good.

If a worker needs a specialized expensive watch for some application the company (or the military) should purchase it for them. If one needs it for sport (deep sea diving for example) have at it.

I have never seen a Rolex other then in print or on film and on the wrists of one boss who wore gold necklaces around his throat and bracelets on the other. They do not sell them at Wal Mart or Target unfortunately.

I have worked in meat packing as a ham boner and in the belly room. I saw no Rolexs there.

I saw no such wrist jewelery on the line at Ford's plant in Claycomo, Mo. Where I mounted drive shafts and rear tires on F150s.

None at the TA in NYC where I worked for three years as a Car Inspector in Coney Island and the East NY barns.

None for the last 27 years as a machinist. Higher end jewelery does not take to coolant, solvents, cutting oil or the chips from the lathes that melt to ones skin. They do not stand up to vibration. You don't see them on the wrists of drywallers, welders, painters, assemblers, mechanics, etc.
Timex and other inexpensive, replaceable, durable reliable fair is the order of the day. But then I gotta admit I don't stare at folks wrists.

I'll take the my Timex like S&W wheelguns and my 1911s over the $5000. pieces of jewelery some folks wear to "work".

tipoc
 
Higher end jewelery does not take to coolant, solvents, cutting oil or the chips from the lathes that melt to ones skin. They do not stand up to vibration. You don't see them on the wrists of drywallers, welders, painters, assemblers, mechanics, etc.
Rolex cases and movements are designed to withstand all that. I have worn my Explorer I through motorcycle repair and construction work. It never failed me. I have observed its likes worn by many other working men.
Timex and other inexpensive, replaceable, durable reliable fair is the order of the day. But then I gotta admit I don't stare at folks wrists.
Which hasn't stopped you from speaking on their behalves and issuing their orders.
 
In regard to the thread on cast vs forged from THR and its surprise ending, I agree with Ken's reading:
Ya mean where Ron Smith decides to claim that castings are equal because he is now using them :p
To the contrary, this explanation from the same thread confirms the claim that directional properties imparted by forging onto revolver frames, barrels, and cylinders, result in increased strength, whereas its conclusion that "with a good clean steel, the right alloy additions and casting technology you can produce a casting which can have the same properties, by making it without the cracks, voids and inclusions in the first place", remains unsupported by argument. As I said at the outset, it is a metallurgical truism that greater strength and toughness are achieved by forging an alloy part than could be obtained by casting it. In particular, the quoted article concedes that grain alignment such as may be realized by cold forging MR73 revolver chambers through roller burnishing, results in anisotropic material properties, whereby the metal strain hardens to a considerable degree. No one claims that the same properties can be realized by an isotropic casting.

Where I come from, logical arguments trump bald assertions. Let's hear them on behalf of pot metal.
 
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