This is really a double edged sword. I see time and again where members of this forum advocate boycotting an establishment that does not allow concealed carry. Why should a gun show be any different than any place else. My biggest concern is how many shots would be fired if the first round was fired. Could you imagine the news media spin. If we are not safe amongst ourselves how can others with less knowledge be expected to feel safe when CCWs are in their midst? Zilmo, I am not talking rights that is not my issue. We as responsible gun owners need to establish that it is perfectly safe to have CCWs in our midst regardless of the circumstance. To quote Pogo " We have met the enemy and they is us"
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Gun show carry ban??? Support or not?
- Thread starter Playboypenguin
- Start date
To those who insist one doing it your way and carrying loaded anyway because it is your right, I assume you do the same in an airport secure area or court or in a holding facility? If not, please explain. "Because you will get caught" is NOT valid justification for one over the other.
Playboypenguin
Moderator
Do you really want to present yourself as someone that cannot see the vast distinction between those two topics?Creature said:Maybe we should be stripped searched too?
Wow...prone to engage in hyperbole and gross dramatization much?Come and take it. said:Am I to be deprived of my right to life when I enter a gun show where alongside of law abiding citizens there are also gang members and criminals lurking about?
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The last gun show I attended was also attended by a posse of Gangbangers, all of them pointing weapons at each other, sweeping the show floor and buying guns for their hoes, I was glad knowing the weapons were unloaded; however, I would have felt better if I was lock and loaded. Like it or not they had every right to be there as I did.
Clever and well-reasoned comeback there...
OK Creature, I think your "rights" crap is just that. CRAP. It's guys like you that give others reasons to want to take things away from us. Your idiotic tunnel vision view of your "rights" that take absolutely nothing else into consideration is as moronic as anything I have seen. You can believe I wouldn't have a damn thing to do with guys like you in the real world. Your "one-way" views of things are as bad or worse than the anti's.
christcorp
New member
You're not being deprived of Life at a gun show no matter WHO is there. Why? Because you don't have to go to the gun show if you're that paranoid; if you rely on your gun to save your life instead of yourself; (Guns don't save people, people save people. Guns are just a tool); and if you don't have other tools in your arsenal, you're in trouble. You should not be relying on a mechanical piece of iron to save your life. You should be relying on yourself to save your life.
And pizza; the car example does not make your point. Reason being is; as a tax payer I OWN PART OF THE ROAD. It is my property to come and go as I please. However; as a co-owner; (Public property); we allow concessions to be made to serve all people and all their rights. That's why we have limitations on freedom of speech. As for the gun show; if the owner of the property; or the person leasing the property (Who is transferred temporary ownership; like renting an apartment); and/or the insurance company insuring the person leasing the property for the gun show; decides that they want a set of policies, rules, prohibitions, etc...; then they are totally free to do so. And you are totally free to not go to the gun show if you can't respect property owner's rights. It's that simple. There is no logic to trying to argue that you some how have RIGHTS on someone else's property in which you are NOT FORCED to go on; and are free to come and go as you like. With the exception of the RIGHT TO LEAVE; all other activities on private property are a privilege. NOT A RIGHT.
Now, if you want to argue a point that you possibly can win; cause you CAN'T win this one; then argue being prohibited from carrying a gun in public buildings that you are FORCED to go to. County court house, police station, post office, school grounds, etc... These are places you are mandated to go to most likely some time in your life. There is no guarantee of maintaining your safety. Yet you are being told that you can't protect yourself. I'll fight this one with you, even though there are times I agree that a gun shouldn't be allowed. But I can at least agree with the argument to be allowed a gun. But private property??? No way in hell. It's not your property. You don't HAVE TO GO there. You are free to leave. You have no rights on private property except to leave. The property owner can make any policy he wants to. And if it's a business property; then as long as the rules/policies/etc.... apply to everyone equally, then s/he is free to make any rule they want,.
And pizza; the car example does not make your point. Reason being is; as a tax payer I OWN PART OF THE ROAD. It is my property to come and go as I please. However; as a co-owner; (Public property); we allow concessions to be made to serve all people and all their rights. That's why we have limitations on freedom of speech. As for the gun show; if the owner of the property; or the person leasing the property (Who is transferred temporary ownership; like renting an apartment); and/or the insurance company insuring the person leasing the property for the gun show; decides that they want a set of policies, rules, prohibitions, etc...; then they are totally free to do so. And you are totally free to not go to the gun show if you can't respect property owner's rights. It's that simple. There is no logic to trying to argue that you some how have RIGHTS on someone else's property in which you are NOT FORCED to go on; and are free to come and go as you like. With the exception of the RIGHT TO LEAVE; all other activities on private property are a privilege. NOT A RIGHT.
Now, if you want to argue a point that you possibly can win; cause you CAN'T win this one; then argue being prohibited from carrying a gun in public buildings that you are FORCED to go to. County court house, police station, post office, school grounds, etc... These are places you are mandated to go to most likely some time in your life. There is no guarantee of maintaining your safety. Yet you are being told that you can't protect yourself. I'll fight this one with you, even though there are times I agree that a gun shouldn't be allowed. But I can at least agree with the argument to be allowed a gun. But private property??? No way in hell. It's not your property. You don't HAVE TO GO there. You are free to leave. You have no rights on private property except to leave. The property owner can make any policy he wants to. And if it's a business property; then as long as the rules/policies/etc.... apply to everyone equally, then s/he is free to make any rule they want,.
SP Shop Foreman
New member
Pizzakilla you can type until your fingers fall off. Your opinion wouldn't make a bit of difference in Montana where the great majority carry in some manner. Our insurance agent happens to be the same company that insures the gun shows in the state and its very simple.
Gun shows are invariably held on private property. They all require an insurance rider. Here we allow carrying an unloaded, tagged through the trigger guard firearm. If you want your sidearm loaded, go to the range for the day and have some fun because your not getting in the gun show door. You don't have carry rights everywhere no matter what. You want to attend the gun show? Unload and get over it.
Gun shows are invariably held on private property. They all require an insurance rider. Here we allow carrying an unloaded, tagged through the trigger guard firearm. If you want your sidearm loaded, go to the range for the day and have some fun because your not getting in the gun show door. You don't have carry rights everywhere no matter what. You want to attend the gun show? Unload and get over it.
Do you really want to present yourself as someone that cannot see the vast distinction between those two topics?
My opinion...ask for and given. Being stripped of rights and being strip search are, when you get down to it, not so far apart. Hate to break it you playboy, but it doesnt take that much of a stretch to make the connection, especially when it comes to the right to protect oneself and being told to remove the cloak of your civil rights.
OK Creature, I think your "rights" crap is just that. CRAP. It's guys like you that give others reasons to want to take things away from us. Your idiotic tunnel vision view of your "rights" that take absolutely nothing else into consideration is as moronic as anything I have seen. You can believe I wouldn't have a damn thing to do with guys like you in the real world. Your "one-way" views of things are as bad or worse than the anti's.
Please tell me what else needs to be taken "into consideration" when it comes to the right to defend myself?
m.p.driver
New member
Unloaded and checked at the front door.A friend finally started going to gun shows with us.His first show he asked if there had ever been any accidents,no not as long as i had been going to them.Ten minutes later there was a bang and a commotion in the front of the arena.When we eventually worked our way back up there we found out that a wanna be gang banger pulled a tec-22 out of his coat for sale.He called it his pocket uzi and promptly slapped a magazine in and then dropped it.When it went off it hit a woman standing next to him in the calf.The positive side is after the womans husband and friends made sure she would be all right they went to work on him.He left the show under arrest in an EMT van.
One instance that comes to mind. Recently while at a local gun shop I observed the problem side of this issue first hand. A fellow there was looking at the new Glocks in the case and asked about trade in value of a 1911 Dan Wesson. The clerk told him he would have to see the gun to give him a price. The fellow reached under his shirt pulls the gun and says "its right here". The clerk asked if the gun was loaded. "Of course why carry an empty gun". The clerk promptly asked that he take it outside and return when it was empty. I have seen CCWs pulled to check if holsters fit and to show new grips etc. My local has a Sign that says." We honor your right to Concealed Carry and your pride in your gun. But please dont show them to others here."
The other side of the coin one evening ( pre instant check) I was in a local shop and a fellow started loading a clip for his new S&W 59 he had just purchased no one in the room had a gun and the shop owner was out of position for his. Not good. He was told to stop 3 times before the shop owner got to his weapon and enforced the no loaded gun policy(except mine) in his shop.
The other side of the coin one evening ( pre instant check) I was in a local shop and a fellow started loading a clip for his new S&W 59 he had just purchased no one in the room had a gun and the shop owner was out of position for his. Not good. He was told to stop 3 times before the shop owner got to his weapon and enforced the no loaded gun policy(except mine) in his shop.
stargazer65
New member
I haven't been to a gun show, so I don't what the atmosphere is like. However, after reading through this thread, I support it for a lot of the practical reasons mentioned. Private property, insurance, unique situation at a gun show as compared to other forums.
Come and take it.
New member
If a person has a CCW, they have to be certified that they understand gun safety. I don't see how anyone with a CCW permit who carries in a gun show would be a liability.
Back in the old days the regulations werent so tight about guns being loaded in gun shows. thousands of innocent bystanders werent swept into oblivion by a careless shooter with a runaway gun.
Back in the old days the regulations werent so tight about guns being loaded in gun shows. thousands of innocent bystanders werent swept into oblivion by a careless shooter with a runaway gun.
I finally voted Yes.
After reading this thread, I decided that I couldn't imagine a Gun Show with loaded guns.
It seems so counterintuitive, but it's really not.
I have two stories.
I took my (unloaded) CZ 75 to 3 gun show before I finally found original magazines that would fit it. The new mags (75B) do not fit in my gun. The B mags and classic mags look exactly alike in every respect, but there is a few thousandths difference in the dimensions somewhere. There is nowhere else that I could have found those mags. I was really really glad that I could carry around that pistol to fit mags into it.
At a shoe once, was standing around a table Looking at guns, minding my own business, being happy and I hear "FREEZE, GET ON THE GROUND, GET ON THE GROUND" about 3 rows down from where I was. Then like 6 BIG guys jumped over their own table and take some guy down. They were off duty officers and had a display at the show. They watched the BG pick up a gun at a nearby table and put it in his pocket. Everyone applauded when they frog marched the BG out in cuffs. There is a far bigger police presence than you think at any gun show.
After reading this thread, I decided that I couldn't imagine a Gun Show with loaded guns.
It seems so counterintuitive, but it's really not.
I have two stories.
I took my (unloaded) CZ 75 to 3 gun show before I finally found original magazines that would fit it. The new mags (75B) do not fit in my gun. The B mags and classic mags look exactly alike in every respect, but there is a few thousandths difference in the dimensions somewhere. There is nowhere else that I could have found those mags. I was really really glad that I could carry around that pistol to fit mags into it.
At a shoe once, was standing around a table Looking at guns, minding my own business, being happy and I hear "FREEZE, GET ON THE GROUND, GET ON THE GROUND" about 3 rows down from where I was. Then like 6 BIG guys jumped over their own table and take some guy down. They were off duty officers and had a display at the show. They watched the BG pick up a gun at a nearby table and put it in his pocket. Everyone applauded when they frog marched the BG out in cuffs. There is a far bigger police presence than you think at any gun show.
So you are content to rely on plain clothes security/police officers who may...or may not...be present to protect you from the random possibility of a malcontent deciding to shoot into a crowd that you may be a part of? Why are so many ready to give up their rights under the pretense of political correctness and the illusion of security?
Creature, I have no illusion of security.
I just don't feel all that unsafe at a gun show.
All the times I have ever been, I have only seen one BG try something stupid, and he was arrested... hard.
Let's just say that if something did go down, there is NO WAY I could shoot at a bad guy in a room that's crowded with people.
Here in Indiana, almost all of the displayers are armed with loaded guns. They don't sell them. They don't handle them. They are there though.
A gun show is just too risky of a target for any BG.
Hey, the people that go to gun shows are the ones that are the most likely to attack a BG in lieu of running away.
I just don't feel all that unsafe at a gun show.
All the times I have ever been, I have only seen one BG try something stupid, and he was arrested... hard.
Let's just say that if something did go down, there is NO WAY I could shoot at a bad guy in a room that's crowded with people.
Here in Indiana, almost all of the displayers are armed with loaded guns. They don't sell them. They don't handle them. They are there though.
A gun show is just too risky of a target for any BG.
Hey, the people that go to gun shows are the ones that are the most likely to attack a BG in lieu of running away.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
I voted yes, despite the fact that I think the poll is a bit ambiguous -- it would be good to distinguish between a legal ban, and the right of gun show organizers, and the folks who own the venues where they take place, to decide what they want to allow or not.
A legal ban -- absolutely not. I think that one could make a case that laws prohibiting concealed carry in gun shows would be a Bad Thing, in terms of the Second Amendment.
The right of private property owners to decide what happens on their property? Absolutely yes. In the case of concealed carry, no one is being discriminated against: you have the choice of complying -- by leaving your gun at home or in your car, or unloading it -- or staying away. (This is what distinguishes this from discrimination based on race, gender, etc.: there's no way to "comply" by changing your race. You just don't get to come in, which is discriminatory.)
If the notion of private property has any meaning, then the owner has the right to determine the conditions under which others have access to it. As the moderators here are wont to point out, this website is private property, and the owner can decide which kinds of speech are acceptable and which are not. Our First Amendment rights don't trump that. So why is a gun show any different? If property rights trump First Amendment rights, they surely trump Second Amendment rights as well -- whether we like it or not.
And I'd feel safer at a gun show, on balance, knowing that loaded guns were banned. When people get a concealed carry permit, they're required to pass a test on gun safety -- which is a long way from demonstrating that they actually understand it, IMO...
A legal ban -- absolutely not. I think that one could make a case that laws prohibiting concealed carry in gun shows would be a Bad Thing, in terms of the Second Amendment.
The right of private property owners to decide what happens on their property? Absolutely yes. In the case of concealed carry, no one is being discriminated against: you have the choice of complying -- by leaving your gun at home or in your car, or unloading it -- or staying away. (This is what distinguishes this from discrimination based on race, gender, etc.: there's no way to "comply" by changing your race. You just don't get to come in, which is discriminatory.)
If the notion of private property has any meaning, then the owner has the right to determine the conditions under which others have access to it. As the moderators here are wont to point out, this website is private property, and the owner can decide which kinds of speech are acceptable and which are not. Our First Amendment rights don't trump that. So why is a gun show any different? If property rights trump First Amendment rights, they surely trump Second Amendment rights as well -- whether we like it or not.
And I'd feel safer at a gun show, on balance, knowing that loaded guns were banned. When people get a concealed carry permit, they're required to pass a test on gun safety -- which is a long way from demonstrating that they actually understand it, IMO...
I've got to weigh in here . . . .
There are those who are willing to give up their ability to carry a concealed weapon to secure more security.
There are those who see any restriction on their ability to carry a concealed weapon as unacceptable.
I suggest this analysis: if there is no conflict in my exercise of my right (to carry) with any one else's exercise of their rights there is no acceptable infringement to be suffered.
No one has justified the banning of loaded concealed weapons here. They want to ban the action of "unconcealing" the loaded weapon.
Merely carrying a loaded concealed weapon is not dangerous, it takes additional action to create a danger. A holstered firearm is safe. The action of drawing the weapon absent the justified use of deadly force is what needs to be discouraged.
There are those who are willing to give up their ability to carry a concealed weapon to secure more security.
There are those who see any restriction on their ability to carry a concealed weapon as unacceptable.
I suggest this analysis: if there is no conflict in my exercise of my right (to carry) with any one else's exercise of their rights there is no acceptable infringement to be suffered.
No one has justified the banning of loaded concealed weapons here. They want to ban the action of "unconcealing" the loaded weapon.
Merely carrying a loaded concealed weapon is not dangerous, it takes additional action to create a danger. A holstered firearm is safe. The action of drawing the weapon absent the justified use of deadly force is what needs to be discouraged.
Lost Sheep
New member
Date, Time, Location, Documentation?
I am not doubting your story. After all, you were there. Your story is first-hand. But when I quote your story, it will be second-hand and I will be subject to doubt.
Besides, I am a curious guy. I wonder if what charges were filed (and against whom?). Obviously, the guy with the gun would be chargeable, but for what, exactly? The guys who beat him up might be chargeable, too (despite justification).
I would have sent this to you as a private message, but I wanted to share the reason for always (when available) citing date, time, location, names and independent sources for research when mentioning events such as this, and to encourage others to do so.
Thanks for reading.
Lost Sheep
M.P.Driver,m.p.driver said:Unloaded and checked at the front door.A friend finally started going to gun shows with us.His first show he asked if there had ever been any accidents,no not as long as i had been going to them.Ten minutes later there was a bang and a commotion in the front of the arena.When we eventually worked our way back up there we found out that a wanna be gang banger pulled a tec-22 out of his coat for sale.He called it his pocket uzi and promptly slapped a magazine in and then dropped it.When it went off it hit a woman standing next to him in the calf.The positive side is after the womans husband and friends made sure she would be all right they went to work on him.He left the show under arrest in an EMT van.
I am not doubting your story. After all, you were there. Your story is first-hand. But when I quote your story, it will be second-hand and I will be subject to doubt.
Besides, I am a curious guy. I wonder if what charges were filed (and against whom?). Obviously, the guy with the gun would be chargeable, but for what, exactly? The guys who beat him up might be chargeable, too (despite justification).
I would have sent this to you as a private message, but I wanted to share the reason for always (when available) citing date, time, location, names and independent sources for research when mentioning events such as this, and to encourage others to do so.
Thanks for reading.
Lost Sheep
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