Mike Irwin
Staff
"Perhaps he wasn't turning this in as part of a class?"
Even wikipedia generally has citations for most of its claims...
Even wikipedia generally has citations for most of its claims...
Gun grease/lube question
- Thread starter TGDKY
- Start date
redstategunnut
New member
My son ran a prototype bolt carrier group in a high round count rifle class, I think it was a Fail Zero. The rifle was loaned to him and he was told to "shoot the snot out of it, just do not apply any lube."
I do not know how many rounds it had been shot without lubrication before he got it. During his use, after about 700 rounds in a day, the bolt carrier group slowed noticeably and he began to have trouble with ejection and feeding. As I say, I do not know how many rounds had been shot before he picked it up, so I am not being critical of the product.
When the gun wouldn't run reliably, he grabbed the gun I had brought for him and finished the class.
There are a lot of quality lubes out there, but that doesn't mean every lube will work well for every application. Examples:
1. There's a thread going about a Kahr not feeding and the shooter is using WD-40. Maybe there's a problem with the pistol and maybe there is not. No way to tell until he uses a decent gun oil.
2. A couple of years ago, a number of Dan Wesson CBOBs seized up. About all those reporting the problem were using Breakfree CLP. Between a lubricant that was too light and a firearm built extremely tight and needed break-in, there was a problem. A switch to other lubricants cured the problem.
You can probably tell I'm an oil guy when it comes to my pistols because I've had my 1911s noticeably slow down using grease on the rails in cold weather. Maybe a different grease would have been better (don't remember now what I was using). However, I do use synthetic bearing grease on my AR.
When I bought my first Ed Brown 1911 pistol, the manual said to use any quality gun oil. Fast forward just a bit and Ed Brown comes out with his own brand of gun oil (copied Wilson I bet). Guess what the manual recommends now?
Just about all the expensive gun oils use a synthetic oil base with additives, most often to prevent rust and corrosion. There is a tremendous mark-up along the way. I choose to cut some of the mark-up out. I use Mobil One. It and Amsoil are the only true, fully synthetic oils out there (that's a long discussion by itself). I've researched the numbers and found Mobil One to have the properties needed for a good gun lubricant. I have had great personal experience with it as well.
One concession I make for rust/corrosion prevention is to first give everything a light coating of CLP and then add the oil to the rails, etc.
1. There's a thread going about a Kahr not feeding and the shooter is using WD-40. Maybe there's a problem with the pistol and maybe there is not. No way to tell until he uses a decent gun oil.
2. A couple of years ago, a number of Dan Wesson CBOBs seized up. About all those reporting the problem were using Breakfree CLP. Between a lubricant that was too light and a firearm built extremely tight and needed break-in, there was a problem. A switch to other lubricants cured the problem.
You can probably tell I'm an oil guy when it comes to my pistols because I've had my 1911s noticeably slow down using grease on the rails in cold weather. Maybe a different grease would have been better (don't remember now what I was using). However, I do use synthetic bearing grease on my AR.
When I bought my first Ed Brown 1911 pistol, the manual said to use any quality gun oil. Fast forward just a bit and Ed Brown comes out with his own brand of gun oil (copied Wilson I bet). Guess what the manual recommends now?
Just about all the expensive gun oils use a synthetic oil base with additives, most often to prevent rust and corrosion. There is a tremendous mark-up along the way. I choose to cut some of the mark-up out. I use Mobil One. It and Amsoil are the only true, fully synthetic oils out there (that's a long discussion by itself). I've researched the numbers and found Mobil One to have the properties needed for a good gun lubricant. I have had great personal experience with it as well.
One concession I make for rust/corrosion prevention is to first give everything a light coating of CLP and then add the oil to the rails, etc.
"Perhaps he wasn't turning this in as part of a class?"
"Even wikipedia generally has citations for most of its claims..."[citation needed]
There, now it looks more like Wikipedia.
And honestly, just how many actually follow up and research the citations in Wikipedia? And if one does or doesn't, that doesn't make the article any more true or false. The Grant Cunningham article is far from being a self-proclaiming last word on lubrication; in fact he flat out states this at numerous points. The conclusion sentence in the introduction:
To be redundant:
"however, what we need is also a bit of common sense."
"Even wikipedia generally has citations for most of its claims..."[citation needed]
There, now it looks more like Wikipedia.
And honestly, just how many actually follow up and research the citations in Wikipedia? And if one does or doesn't, that doesn't make the article any more true or false. The Grant Cunningham article is far from being a self-proclaiming last word on lubrication; in fact he flat out states this at numerous points. The conclusion sentence in the introduction:
To be redundant:
"however, what we need is also a bit of common sense."
Mike Irwin
Staff
""Even wikipedia generally has citations for most of its claims..."[citation needed]"
"how many actually follow up and research the citations in Wikipedia?"
Depending on what it is, I do.
I've yet to find anything truly blatantly wrong in a cited item.
"how many actually follow up and research the citations in Wikipedia?"
Depending on what it is, I do.
I've yet to find anything truly blatantly wrong in a cited item.
Romeo 33 Delta
New member
How about LSA? I remember using it during my "senior class trip" back in 1968 and it seemed to work fine in M-60s and M-16s. Does it still have a useful place in semi and full autos today?
PS ... did use it once on a sticky screen door hold close device (the kind that mounts on the jamb and pivots when the closing door hits is and the spring loaded "C" shaped part follows the door and keeps it closed). Darn thing would hang up on me. A couple drops of LSA and that thing almost beats the door closing now!!!
PS ... did use it once on a sticky screen door hold close device (the kind that mounts on the jamb and pivots when the closing door hits is and the spring loaded "C" shaped part follows the door and keeps it closed). Darn thing would hang up on me. A couple drops of LSA and that thing almost beats the door closing now!!!
I have used one grade of dupont krytox in the seldom visited parts of gun actions such ad the tunnel for the trigger return spring on ruger revolvers. Good long term lube that does not degrade. Btw it's expensive stuff, not well suited to general lube.... It does not spread and reform well in most other applications I tried.
Thinking of one lube is kind of silly.. Think your watch just gets rebuilt and oiled with "watch oil" ? Maybe in 1950, now there will be 5 to 12 grades of oil and grease used on a automatic movement.
That being said I use mostly grease of varying grades on my guns. It's really simple, lube is there to prevent wear by 2 actions, lubrication and by suspending wear particles and dirt thus preventing or minimizing their abrasive actions. A single drop of thin oil on frame rails does a poor job of this. A benefit as well is easier cleaning, after 1k my gun may look like heck but it cleans up quick.
Others are free to do as they please however I sure would not view what is in an owners manual as gospel, they are written for the lowest common denominator to try and keep them from greasing the fp / striker channel thus making the pistol a door stop in short order AND a ton of "engineering based improvements and reccomrndations" are brought to you by the same lug heads who replaced bearings that could be oiled / greased with sealed (I.e. Toss the motor in a few years vs. 5o or more, inaccessible motor brushes on power tools, transmissions that can have their fluid easialy changed, snd a whole host of other profoundly stupid ideas that are labeled progress but really screw the consumer and increase profit for the maker.
Thinking of one lube is kind of silly.. Think your watch just gets rebuilt and oiled with "watch oil" ? Maybe in 1950, now there will be 5 to 12 grades of oil and grease used on a automatic movement.
That being said I use mostly grease of varying grades on my guns. It's really simple, lube is there to prevent wear by 2 actions, lubrication and by suspending wear particles and dirt thus preventing or minimizing their abrasive actions. A single drop of thin oil on frame rails does a poor job of this. A benefit as well is easier cleaning, after 1k my gun may look like heck but it cleans up quick.
Others are free to do as they please however I sure would not view what is in an owners manual as gospel, they are written for the lowest common denominator to try and keep them from greasing the fp / striker channel thus making the pistol a door stop in short order AND a ton of "engineering based improvements and reccomrndations" are brought to you by the same lug heads who replaced bearings that could be oiled / greased with sealed (I.e. Toss the motor in a few years vs. 5o or more, inaccessible motor brushes on power tools, transmissions that can have their fluid easialy changed, snd a whole host of other profoundly stupid ideas that are labeled progress but really screw the consumer and increase profit for the maker.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
When John M. Browning designed the M1911 for Colt, the lubricant of choice was whale oil, which is not readily available today. I don't think lithium grease had been invented by the time JMB died, so it's unlikely he could have recommended it.
I use Lubriplate on the slide rails and locking lugs, and Castrol Syntec 5W50 motor oil mixed with a bit of super-fine molybdenum powder for everything else.
Lubriplate is Kosher -
So,
Y'know, it's got that going for it too...
http://www.lubriplate.com/pdf/pds/8_19_SFL-2_1_0_00.pdf
So,
Y'know, it's got that going for it too...
http://www.lubriplate.com/pdf/pds/8_19_SFL-2_1_0_00.pdf
WD40 doesn't work well, my company armorer told me that way back in 1986.
I'm glad it has worked for you, but really it shouldn't, part of the solution evaporates and it leaves a film unless it's wiped down with some other cleaner or diluted or mixed somehow with some other lubricant.
I'm glad it has worked for you, but really it shouldn't, part of the solution evaporates and it leaves a film unless it's wiped down with some other cleaner or diluted or mixed somehow with some other lubricant.
Okay, time to talk some real facts about WD-40. I'm going to use Mobil 1 5W-30 for comparison purposes since I often use it myself.
Their Material Safety Data Sheet for WD-40 is here: http://www.wd40company.com/files/pdf/msds-wd494716385.pdf
MSDS for Mobil 1 5W-30 is here: http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/instr-shop/MSDS/Mobil 1 5W-30.pdf
Just a couple of numbers we want to look at:
Flash point (minimum temperature at which it becomes combustible):
WD-40: 122 degrees Fahrenheit (watch out!)
Mobil 1 5W-30: 428 degrees F
Viscosity (the measure of the resistance to flow; specifically a measurement of how much the liquid resists shearing stress):
WD-40: 2.79-2.96cSt at 100 deg. F
Mobil 1 5W-30: 61.3 cSt at 104 deg. F (40 deg. C)
Yep, Mobil 1 5W-30 is twenty times more resistant to shearing stress than WD-40. It thus gives much greater protection to the types of stresses that occur when a slide moves on the frame of a pistol. Now, this doesn't even get into how WD-40 dries and can leave a tacky residue.
Their Material Safety Data Sheet for WD-40 is here: http://www.wd40company.com/files/pdf/msds-wd494716385.pdf
MSDS for Mobil 1 5W-30 is here: http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/instr-shop/MSDS/Mobil 1 5W-30.pdf
Just a couple of numbers we want to look at:
Flash point (minimum temperature at which it becomes combustible):
WD-40: 122 degrees Fahrenheit (watch out!)
Mobil 1 5W-30: 428 degrees F
Viscosity (the measure of the resistance to flow; specifically a measurement of how much the liquid resists shearing stress):
WD-40: 2.79-2.96cSt at 100 deg. F
Mobil 1 5W-30: 61.3 cSt at 104 deg. F (40 deg. C)
Yep, Mobil 1 5W-30 is twenty times more resistant to shearing stress than WD-40. It thus gives much greater protection to the types of stresses that occur when a slide moves on the frame of a pistol. Now, this doesn't even get into how WD-40 dries and can leave a tacky residue.
Mike Irwin
Staff
A couple of other big problems with WD-40 is that, as a light-weight oil in a volatile carrier, it flows into nooks and crannies VERY well. Some of those nooks and crannies could include the primer pockets on carry ammunition.
There have, over the years, been reports of WD-40 rendering ammunition inert in guns so treated.
Another issue has been mentioned - that WD-40's light oils can quickly decay into a stick varnish that can be hard to remove and can be, as some have claimed, somewhat hygroscopic, meaning that it could promote rusting.
I've never experienced the rusting issue, but I have experienced, and seen others experience, the varnishing issue first hand.
The worst case was a friend who was surf fishing and took a fall into the surf. He flushed his reel out with fresh water, and then hosed the reel (it was an old, lots of ferrous parts) with WD-40 to protect it. He forgot to clean it until he was getting ready for the next fishing season, and when he pulled it out of his bag the WD-40 had varnished and frozen the entire reel solid. He spent hours pulling it apart, cleaning it, and putting it back together.
WD-40 is good for some applications, but as a mid- to long-term lubricant and protectant it simply isn't up to the job.
There have, over the years, been reports of WD-40 rendering ammunition inert in guns so treated.
Another issue has been mentioned - that WD-40's light oils can quickly decay into a stick varnish that can be hard to remove and can be, as some have claimed, somewhat hygroscopic, meaning that it could promote rusting.
I've never experienced the rusting issue, but I have experienced, and seen others experience, the varnishing issue first hand.
The worst case was a friend who was surf fishing and took a fall into the surf. He flushed his reel out with fresh water, and then hosed the reel (it was an old, lots of ferrous parts) with WD-40 to protect it. He forgot to clean it until he was getting ready for the next fishing season, and when he pulled it out of his bag the WD-40 had varnished and frozen the entire reel solid. He spent hours pulling it apart, cleaning it, and putting it back together.
WD-40 is good for some applications, but as a mid- to long-term lubricant and protectant it simply isn't up to the job.
www.wd-40.com
Went to the wd-40 website and they seem to disagree with what you're saying. Quite the opposite in fact.
I've cleaned a lot of guns after hunting or shooting in the rain or on a hot day when my hands were sweaty or touching them with blood on my hands and put 'em in the safe for several months. Never found them to be rusty or sealed shut.
And I don't soak them in it or clean them loaded so it can get in the primers. Never heard of that one.
And the "Gunny" R. Lee Ermy endorses them.
Went to the wd-40 website and they seem to disagree with what you're saying. Quite the opposite in fact.
I've cleaned a lot of guns after hunting or shooting in the rain or on a hot day when my hands were sweaty or touching them with blood on my hands and put 'em in the safe for several months. Never found them to be rusty or sealed shut.
And I don't soak them in it or clean them loaded so it can get in the primers. Never heard of that one.
And the "Gunny" R. Lee Ermy endorses them.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Of course WD-40 is going to dispute what we're saying here. They want to sell product, so they're going to give the most extensive list of uses that they possibly can.
Simple fact is, it's not a very good lubricant, and it's not a very good long-term protectant.
That said, it can have numerous uses on firearms. It's a half-ways decent cleaner and rust remover, primarily because it's such a light-weight oil it will penetrate under accumulated dirt and crud and will also penetrate and loosen rust.
When I do use WD-40 on my firearms, I always make sure that I thoroughly remove it with solvent and then use a product that has a much better track record at preventing rust and which won't varnish over time.
Simple fact is, it's not a very good lubricant, and it's not a very good long-term protectant.
That said, it can have numerous uses on firearms. It's a half-ways decent cleaner and rust remover, primarily because it's such a light-weight oil it will penetrate under accumulated dirt and crud and will also penetrate and loosen rust.
When I do use WD-40 on my firearms, I always make sure that I thoroughly remove it with solvent and then use a product that has a much better track record at preventing rust and which won't varnish over time.