Grizzly scenario

[Para Bellum]

our ancestors killed bears and other predators for food, with nothing more than ...

I do not know what the exact kill ratio is, but our ancestors killed bears and other predators for food, with nothing more than spears and clubs.

That was one of the reasons why our planet was soo poorly populated then...

By the way: Brown bears easily outrun racing horses. The make 100m with a standing start in 6 sec in the woods. They are as close to perfect as nature can be.

 

[panzer426]

normal pepper spray, such as police use, is designed to work on humans. dogs have smaller tear ducts. there is a product called bear spray that works very well. I dont remember the site but they showed videos of testing and worked very well. it is 2 times stronger the LEO and civilian pepper spray, and powerfull/concentrated enough to cause permanent blindness and brain/nervous system damage in humans.
our ancestors most likely made one kill out of 100 attempts at killing bears with pointy sticks, and I shudder to guess how many hunters lost their lives in both failed and successfull bear hunts. untill the firearm even kings who hunted bear rode on horses (several men armed with bows/arrows, spears, and swords) and used a pack of dogs to chase the bear and wear it out. that was thousands of years after cave men killed bear with spears and rocks. and most likely they didnt HUNT bear, they would have known that they had little chance of succes and would have stuck to bison, mamoths, and deer.
personally I will carry, and use against a bear in this order (yelling and praying the whole time): a 12 gauge pump aimed at face, chest and legs all at once; a 44 magnum (or similar) revolver aimed at center of visible mass; a dog; bear spray; a flashlight (if night time); then rocks/sticks/anything I can get my hands on. and most likely the bear will either turn around and retreat or will kill me before I get to go through even 1/4 of those.

 

[Twycross]

They are as close to perfect as nature can be.

A shaggy, smelly, lump o' lard is close to perfection?

 

[BobK]

I've seen bear run through bushes and alder up to five inches in diameter while chasing a moose. They are a most impressive animal and should not be underestimated. As far as pepper spray, sorry but I don't trust it. I don't carry spray for humans. I'm not about to carry it for bear. Once you piss off a bear, only hot lead or a lot of luck will stop it.

 

[CarbineCaleb]

Man French Kissing a Grizzly?

This photo off National Geographics site has this caption:

Trainer Jeff Watson bonds with his bear Brody, the cover boy of this month’s National Geographic, by spitting into his mouth. Brody may seem cute and cuddly at moments like these, but Watson is uncomfortable with visitors and television clients who don’t temper their affection for Brody with a little bit of respect. “This bear is not a pet,” he says. “I’ve raised him from a cub, and I have to watch every move I make.”

 

[Nnobby45]

What kind of slugs.

OK, what kind of slugs do experienced people carry in Griz country? I've always wondered if the typical foster type might be a little soft and provide inadequate penetration--especially when trying to break a shoulder bone. Heard good thing about Brennekes. Never hear anything about what people really carry up there. Could someone be more specific than just SLUGS.

Also seems to me that at close range, the first rounds should be slugs, with the last couple rounds either being slugs or buckshot for real close range.

 

[CarbineCaleb]

Best slugs for grizzlies

If I actually needed to shoot one, I would want the new Remington 12 gauge Core-Lokt Ultra Sabot Slugs - they are a high velocity .50 caliber bonded/jacketed bullet, roughly equivalent to a .45-70 rifle round.

On the actual probability of needing one, however, see this thread:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174660

 

[Twycross]

I am wondering why people would choose long-range intermediate-power rifles such as the 7 mm. For the same weight, you can get a lot more power, and you don't need the range. It's not like there are going to be hikers out there taking 400 yard pre-emptive "self-defence" shots are unaware grizzlys. Not attacking the choice, just wondering if there's something I havn't considered.

 

[mathman]

I am curious as to what type of firearm the couple had in their tent. Perhaps it was a long gun and perhaps that is why they could not use it. One could argue (I suppose) that in a tent, a .44 mag (et al) would be best for maneuverability.

I've been thinking about this a lot and feel bad that these people did everything right...even had a gun for the unlikely worst case senario...and didn't even get off a shot! Life is unfair sometimes...

 

[stephen426]

Apparently they didn't do everything right. They could have set up a perimeter to alert them of trouble. More likely than not, the man was killed first (probably just trampled as the bear was investigating). I think the bear would go and check out the site and attacked when the couple awoke and panicked. The woman was probably so freaked out and possibly not familiar with guns that she couldn't do anything about it (sorry to sound sexist, I know ther are plenty of women who shoot, but you ladies are still i the minority). It doesn't take much for a grizzly to kill a person. One swipe can do it with those nasty claws of theirs.

 

[mathman]

well, ok...they didn't do everything right, but they probably did more than 99% of people who venture out into the woods...

 

[panzer426]

the most often reason a bear attacks a tent is..first it knows camp sights may mean easy food (hot dogs, chicken bones, candy or chip wrappers etc), and the tent itself gets attacked because bears are curious (and may have gotten food from inside an empty tent once). they sort of pile drive the tent with their front paws. so most likely the couple didnt know anything was wrong untill the bears paws slammed down into one or both of them, seriously doubt the bear roared as he approached the camp sight or tent and they typically dont gradually tear the tent with their claws. imagine waking up with 1,000 pounds (more or less, dont know what this one weighed) slamming into any part of your body with incredible force. wether it was the man or the woman or both that got hit first it would all happen so fast that before they realized what had happened it'd be too late to grab the gun. they did a lot right, except for as someone said, they didnt put up a perimmiter. for that they could have used sting with bells, or one of those motions sensing perimmiters like someone posted on a prior page.

 

[Limeyfellow]

I am just glad that we no longer have to worry about running into cavebears. Those things made Brown Bears seem like Winnie the Pooh.

Of course bears are alot less deadly than mosquitos that kill 2.5 million a year.

 

[Dave R]

I occasionally go backpacking with my Ward's boy scout troop. Last hike we took was into Loon Lake, near the Secesh river. Pretty far back in the country.

We ran into a hiker who was carrying what appeared to be a Marlin Guide Gun. Pretty good choice. From the look of his pack and beard, I think he had been in-country for 4-5 days.

I was carrying a .45 acp. I figure the chance of a bear encounter there is pretty remote. And if we saw a bear it would likely be black bear, not Grizzley. We saw no bear tracks, though we saw cougar, deer, elk and moose.

I don't think there's ever been a bear attack on a scout troop. Bears can't stand that level of noise.

 

[black bear 84]

Stephen and Panzer426
Are right about the perimeter alarm, and what probably happened to a tired sleppy couple of certain age with more sluggish reaction than the average camper.
They were doing almost everything right; cooking and eating in one place then traveling and sleeping in another, having food stored in bear-proof containers and having a gun for defense.
I don’t think that they had a perimeter alarm, (maybe because in the Tundra is not trees to attach the cord) and I just consider that the first priority. I have two, the first one being the Para cord and the screaming siren and the second is the Driveway alert.
And if I were camping in Alaska I will probably have one more Driveway Alert.
I can not say enough good things about this unit; I have tested it in my back yard, in rain and snow and always work.
I got mine thru Heartland catalogue.

Why is it so important to be warned of an intrusion in your campsite? Well, I just woke up and went to the computer, and my eyes don’t focus properly. My legs and arms are painful from the arthritis and from getting the humid air the entire night, my responses are sluggish, and I need a little time and a cup of coffee to just get going. (I am 60, the age of the lawyer that got killed.)

I imagine that after paddling a canoe or hiking for several hours your body responses will be at an all time low. Awakened from profound sleep by an attacking bear, what are your chances even if you have a gun nearby?

I am going to implement in my camping routine two more things that I have learned on this Forum. My.44 Magnum or the S&W 500 (if I can get one) is going to be attached by a lanyard to my wrist, and my sleeping bag will be unzipped.

If I throw 951 lumens of light in the face of a bear whose eyes are conditioned to the dark, IT WILL BE BLINDED.
My powerful flashlight (The MAG 951 for 951 lumens that I modify and also sell to members of this Forum) will be attached to my pants by the Maglite holder that you see in the picture. And as usual I will have a light going on the entire night; for that purpose I use an Infinity Ultra hanging from the ceiling of the tent.

In Alaska I also will have one of the new Marlin Guide carbines in 450 Marlin or hot 45-70 and the revolver will be a 454 Casull or an S&W 500.
If I could not buy those revolvers it will have to be my Ruger Redhawk with 7 ½ inches barrel and a very hot handload with the 300 grains Hornady XTP.

I would like to have a hiking staff made into a short spear, something like the Zulus used, with a cover for the blade to use while hiking and uncovered and lying next to me while sleeping..
Something similar to what is shown in my picture
So, the kit I showed before a couple pages up is the one I used for camping in N. Y. in black bear country.
This picture shows what it is going to be for Grizzly if I made my many times postponed trip to Alaska.

If all this precautions sound a little extreme to you, just consider what just happened to this couple.

Regards,
Black bear

 

[stephen426]

Looks like a pretty good set up tp me. Now the biggest probrem will be finding space in your pack for luxuries such as food and water!

I have a question about the Maglight modifications. What is 951 lumens in candle power (not that I know exactly how bright a certain number of cp is). How long does the battery last? Is the bulb durable or fragile? Will it get super hot with extended use?

One thing no one has mentioned it using an ultrasonic deterrent. I know most animals have a much wider hearing range than us useless humans. (Thank God we have more advanced brains or else we would be extinct like dinos!) It might be possible to rig either a trip wire or other type of sensor to one of those high frequency noise boxes. Any one know if this might work?

 

[panzer426]

not sure if I would trust ultrasonic. I wouldnt hear it and what if the bear is half deaf? or the device isnt at the right frequency to DETER him? I think I would use the set up black bear showed (perhaps with a minor few variations) and possibly add a perimiter trip wire attached to 12 gauge blanks. then maybe, just maybe, the bear would get scared off by the loud BANG!!! before I had to attempt scaring him off/killing him. and no matter how tired I am, if I sleep through the alarms I'd bet a 12 gauge blast would wake me up. assuming thats legal of course. and possible some battery or solar powered motion detecting lights strategically placed in a few trees.

 

[Capt. Charlie]

Unless you're broadcasting at 120+ dB, ultrasonics don't work. Gimmick. The hand held gizmo's might startle a curious, but wary visitor a little, but don't bet your life on it.

 

[Bullrock]

Close encounters of the critter kind

While backpacking, I have seen about 10 each:
- moose
- black bear (3 times with cubs)
- grizzly bear (once with cubs)

Hey Caleb,

I don't need to go far to see critters. It's quite common to see a moose running around close by the house 3 to 4 times a year. They're usually not a problem unless it is rutting season. Black Bear are common, but I'd have my gun in hand before trying to scare one off with my voice as you did.

We don't have grizz here, so I've been told, but we do have large cats that will attack, and dog packs that have been know to surround folks hiking, snow shoeing, and CC skiing...Otherwise Maine is a nice State...

 

[stephen426]

Fine. If the ultrasonics don't work, I'm setting up claymores! I'll toss in a few bear traps along the way that have a nice chunk of C-4 set with remote detination. That will show those darn bears!!!

I just figured it out! Wrap a nice juicy steak around a grenade and hang it from a tree. When the bear grabs the steak, it will pull out the pin and go BOOM!!! Not very sporting of me but I don't weigh 500 lbs., or have 4 inch claws, or run 45 mph either!