Grizzly scenario

What is the best hiking / camping gun

  • .22 pistol / rifle - bang scares animals and is light

    Votes: 6 4.5%
  • .38 / 9mm pistol / carbine - adequate stopping power for most encounters

    Votes: 4 3.0%
  • .40 / .45 pistol / carbine - proven stopping power

    Votes: 8 6.1%
  • .357 mag / .44 mag - I will haul the weight - great stopping power

    Votes: 49 37.1%
  • 5.56mm rifle - My AR will stop those beasts....

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • 308 / 7.62mm - heavy round does the talking

    Votes: 10 7.6%
  • 12 ga - the mother of all defensive loads.

    Votes: 51 38.6%
  • 30-06, 7mm rem mag - long range shooter

    Votes: 2 1.5%
  • .375 H&H, .460 weather mag - elephants - NP

    Votes: 5 3.8%
  • Other....

    Votes: 7 5.3%

  • Total voters
    132
Are there any informed people who could please comment on my previous post?

Stephen426 said:
I hope this doesn't sound silly but don't bears have super sensitive noses like dogs? How would some potent mace or pepper spray affect a grizzly? Would that be like adding some Tabasco before the meal? I know that mailmen carry less powerful versions of pepper spray because the human rated stuff is so hard on them.

If that doesn't work, I voted for the 12 gauge loaded with solid copper slugs from Remington. http://www.remington.com/ammo/shotshell/pcs_sabsl.htm I would carry that on a sling and would probably keep a .44 Mag on my hip. Actually, I just though of something else... What about loading the first round with bird shot in a short barreled shotgun and going for a head shot? A grizzly would have a hell of a time attacking what it can't see. Then you can follow that up with the slugs.

Is this just wishful thinking from a city slicker or could it actually work? Maybe I should just stay OUT OF THE WOODS!!! :eek: Lions and Tigers and BEARS!!! Oh My!!! :eek: :D :p
 
Stephen426

It's a good question, and yes, pepper (OC) spray does work on bears. Several companies make an OC spray especially for bear that's a lot stronger than the stuff used for personal defense. I've heard it works, but I would also think it's going to depend on how determined (or pissed off) the bear is.
If that doesn't work? Ditto the Street Sweeper 12 ga. /w slugs. ;)
 
What do you think of the head shot with bird shot though? If you can blind it, it will have a hell of a hard time charging. I'm sure their sense of smell would get messed up as well if their nose was full of bird shot. :confused:

I only mention this because some postings said powerful rifle rounds didn't drop the bear right away. If you wound it with a pistol round, you may just end up pissing it off. I've also heard grizzlies are pretty quick so out running them will only make you die tired.
 
well, if you can keep up a sustained pace of 45+ mph, you'd be OK, 'cause that's how fast they've been clocked at. I don't think I'd trust to luck that some of that bird shot would find both eyes. Not only that, but now you have a wounded and REALLY pissed off bear that has to be finished off.
 
45 FRIGGIN MPH??? That is really moving, especially with all that weight! I guess having a slower friend go with you comes in handy here! :eek: :p :D

As for the bird shot, what if it was fired from a short barrel such as an 18 incher or 20 incher? I don't have too much experience with shotguns so I don't know what the expected patterns would be at varying distances with no chokes. I know most people think it spreads more than it actually does though.

If I was lugging a 12 gauge, I would think about bird shot (#4 maybe), followed with 000 Buck, then slugs. I better shoot fast or hoot early though. I doubt I could get 3 rounds off if the bear is closing in at 45 mph!

If we are talking about theoreticals here, I would carry a flame thrower. He'll be Smokey the Bear for sure! They we can feast on him afterwards! :D
 
Evil Black Rifle all the way! It scares this pants off of liberals, so I imagine it should send a bear screaming in terror. :D
 
I'm sticking with Jeff Cooper's recommendation, because, well.. next to Mr. Cooper I look young - and that's not an easy thing any more.

For those that have been there and done that, those that are there and are doing that and for the guy who literally "wrote the book" it's Jim West's baby all the way.

Although one might quibble over the round. :)

Thus, I voted "other".
 
I only mention this because some postings said powerful rifle rounds didn't drop the bear right away
glad you brought this up. now, ask yourself 'why doesn't powerful rifle rounds drop big fuzzy bears right away?'

in the case mentioned by sulaco, even the true account shows that several hits were made before the great beast fell. there is very few ways to stop a bear. some people fall to the ideology that no matter where you shoot a beast if the projectile is large enough it will kill/stop it. i know a kid who believes this very thing, that his flashy bling-bling desert eagle in "point-five-oh" will kill a charging bear even if it hits it in its leg. gee, can you guess why i dont go fishing in bear country with this kid?

a bear has to have its body immobilized, or its CNS damaged if you wish to stop it dead in its tracks. you can shoot it 7 times, heck, 30 times in what you think are 'vitals' and it may still be on its feet.

you would have to shatter its shoulder to stop its mobility, or fill its brainpan with lead so theres no signal from the brain to its body parts. and their skulls are very thick and very hard. you have to hit it in its snout in order to do that, and that is a very small target to hit that will most likely be moving towards you at a high rate of speed.

back to shooting its 'vitals'. even a lung shot may prove ineffective immediately if there is enough oxygen still in the bears blood.
 
as far as the dog issue goes...in 99.9% of grizzly encounters with people who have a dog along the bear retreats. they dont differentiate between a dog and a wolf, and though they could easily kill a wolf, they dont fight an entire pack and they instinctively know that where there is one there is most likely more nearby. the only cases where bears have attacked people with a dog have been when they are between the female and a cub, too close to a male who is with a female in breeding season, or suprise a bear over an animal carcasse. however most bear encounters are: along a stream river during salmon season; suprised on a trail or in the woods; or suprised the bear while feeding on vegetation. in these cases the bear has a lot less reason to challenge, especially considering an entire pack may be right behind the dog.
as for myself, the times I have been camping or backpacking in bear country I carried a 12 gauge pump, bear spray cannister, and a 98 pound german shepherd on leash. only encountered 2 bears. one was 1/2 mile +/- away, the other was about 100 yards. no threat or challenge, they both went there way, and I went the other way wether that was the way I was going or not.
 
I guess praying for enough penetration to get a spinal column shot, assuming you can even place a bullet with that kind of accuracy at a charging bear, is out of th question?

No one other than Capt. Charlie has commented on my bird shot to the eyes idea. What about super strong mace. It won't stop it if it is already charging but it could make the bear change its mind if it doesn't like spicy food. Besides, some of those sprays have a pretty good reach and disperse in the air. If it can't see or smell, you have a chance to pop off a few rounds.

Lets follow this idea a little further. What about carrying a Surefire flashlight with the extra powerful lamp (120 lumen) on a belt holster (assuming you can do so without playing with it all the times and drainig the battery :D ). If it is dark, getting nailed square in the eyes will have to blind it temporarily. That may give you a chance to move out of the way of a charge and get a few more rounds in.

I would probably look like Rambo if I ever went camping. I would definately add the mace/pepper spray and a high powered flashlight to the .44 mag (or .500 S&W) and shotgun combo. It's not that much more to carry.
 
Close encounters of the critter kind

While backpacking, I have seen about 10 each:
- moose
- black bear (3 times with cubs)
- grizzly bear (once with cubs)

with distances ranging from 10 yards to 75 yards. Out of that, I was charged once, by a black bear who was after our food (we had been eating fragrant salami and cheese when he began to approach us), but I scared him off with my voice.
 
Caleb,

I'm glad that worked on the black bear but I doubt you'll impress a hungry grizzly. I would toss the salami and make a run for it.

Note to self: do not eat fragrant salami in the woods :D
 
stephen426 Yep, grizzly are supposed to be much harder to intimidate if they actually go for you. I like to bring along both salami and cheese, because they don't carry much water weight, don't need refrigeration for a week or two, and taste good... but those strong smells definitely attract all kinds of critters - also skunks, raccoons, etc - seems everybody likes 'em! ;)

That black bear who charged us actually followed us over a mile from where he first saw us - we had carried our canoes into the backcountry, and when we saw him taking a strong interest in us, got into the canoes and pushed off, paddled down the other other end of the lake, carried between that lake and another, and were putting in again when he caught up to us, and that's when he charged - didn't want that salami getting away again! ;) My photographer girlfriend actually stood there taking photos as he ran at us, and my yelling in a sharp deep voice "Hey! Hey! Hey" (like barking), made him veer off in his path, and he actually just went past us and kept right on going. The barking was a trick I'd heard a wildlife biologist describe - it worked.

It doesn't happen often though - Denali, which has tons of grizzlies, gets over half a millions visitors each year, and it's illegal to bring a gun into the park. If those bears regularly wanted to eat people, there'd be carnage like on D-Day. Does happen mind you, but very rarely.
 
For Grizzlies, Brown Bear and Polar Bear, anyone who bets his/her life on any handgun is an insane fool, in my humble opinion.

Lot of us up here then are insane :)

Just as an aside, the USFWS carries Winchester 70s in 375 H&H, cut down, many of them bearing Ghost rings (guess where they got them:))

USGS is packing WWG modified lever rifles, as are many of the surveying companies and Search and rescues. Shotguns are still used by the Feds also.

Me personally either handgun (44 Mountain Gun or SIG 9mm) or 870 with buckshot. One of our gunsmiths uses a 10mm glock with Batten Perfomance barrel (found on ebay)..he has 16 shots of 220 hardcasts at 1250 fps

Ammo for the agencies?...generic Winchester 375 or HSM Kodiak fodder in either 457 or 45/70.

WildeartothegroundAlaska
 
The spray they make to repel bears is alot stronger than mace or pepper spray and works a majority of the time. Its more a last ditch effort though. If you do get attacked by a bear the best targets tend to be the face, nose and ears.

Where the bear was following you, it would have been better to all stop and take a stand together to appear more intimidating. Thats not acting defensively and is a dangerous. The same if they go in your tent or cabin and so on.

Usually you only drop down and play dead when its a defensive attack on you and you used any deterrents you have, they usually lose interest in you. If they don't then you fight back. The defensive attack accounts for pretty much all attacks. This can be avoided most the time by making sure the bear know you are not a threat or prey by talking calmly and letting it get your scent and so on. Most the time when they charge up to you they will stop at the last moment as a threatening motion. Don't run or your screwed.

If they just seem to ignore you its best to slowly and quietly leave the area.
 
Grew up hunting and fishing in Alaska. Shot bear with 338 win mag. Other than that when fishing or out and about we carried at LEAST a 44mag. Most of the time we had a 12 ga or Marlin 45-70.
Don't kid yourself. Any revolver with less than a 6" barrell isn't going to generate enough muzzle velocity and follow up shots will be much tougher. Take the advise of someone who was "tree'd" by a pissed off bear after he was shot 3 times center mass with a 338 and once by a 44 mag. I spent the night in that tree.
Dogs are a terrible idea. I have seen bear chase dogs all the way BACK TO THE OWNER!! This happened in Mt Mckinley National Park about 30 years ago. Back then you were allowed to travel through the park in a private vehicle unescorted. Now you have to ride a tour bus.
 
Cavemen had spears - they beat bears

I do not know what the exact kill ratio is, but our ancestors killed bears and other predators for food, with nothing more than spears and clubs.

The modern hunter / hiker armed with today's magnificent weaponry should well be able to defend himself from these beasties.

Lets face it would you rather have a rifle / shotgun or even a .44 magnum vs a sharp long stick when facing a beastie like a bear?

:D
 
when we went camping in Alaska years ago the wild life agent told us the best defense against a charging grizzly are in order: be lucky and not see one; be inside a vehicle; dog that will bark and stand ground while you also make noise and throw rocks and or sticks; 12 gauge buckshot to the front legs; bear spray to the face. claimed that the majority of times someone defended themselves with a 44 magnum, or even a 30-06 against a charging bear, they shot for the head (hard to do when a 1,000 pound ball of teeth claws and fur is coming at you) the ones that hit the head left a scar on the bears head where the skull deflected the shot and it tore a furrow along the scalp.
 
Concerning pepper spray, I am a little ambivalent about it. I guess I will have to see some field tests with real bears before I will trust it fully.
I have a video of Wayne Carlton, “Call’n Bears,” where he called one and used pepper spray on him. The bear retreated, but I think was more surprised of seeing a human being and not a rabbit (as the call was imitating).

When you see a dog get sprayed by a skunk you see that it really bothers him and he tries to take it off with his paws and is frantic about it and in pain (burning sensation).
That bear that Wayne sprayed didn’t show any of this, and in my opinion, was not affected by the spray.

Every time that I hear about carrying pepper spray for defense against bears I am reminded of a story that my son wrote for another Forum, that went like this.


Pepper Spray and Bears

The hikers shuddered in the cold winds blowing that day over the treetops of Yellowstone National Park. They clutched their parkas closer to their chests in the hopes to warm themselves against the fury of the bitter maritime polar winds that blew against them. After all, the guide had warned them to be equipped for unexpected and unfriendly weather.

The guide, a middle-sized male of forty-nine years, exhaled and gave a loud noise of mild exasperation beneath his silver bushy moustache as he climbed up onto a protruding section from the side of the hill. It was a Wednesday, and as the previous days of the week, Ray Bucklesmith was leading a group of tourists across a small portion of the northern border of Yellowstone Park. At the moment, he was guiding the hikers over a small hill, which for the most part had a gentle elevation and allowed for a comfortable pace, granting leave to observe the scenery of the autumn colors as a background against the distant mountains.

“Everyone here?” questioned the guide, gripping a nearby cedar branch for support. “Great.” His eyes moved across the leaf-covered ground and the surrounding scenery for a hint on what interesting fact to point out to them. Not that they were very interested, in that sense.

He happened to spot a small pile of waste on the ground about three meters from his spot. Instantly, he was able to recognize it.

“Alright, as you may have noticed, we are on a heavily used bear trail. Now, the bears can’t ascend this hill, but they go across horizontally. You can see here,” and he pointed to an oak tree, “that there are several markings in the shape of claws across the surface of this tree. This was most likely was done by, oh, most likely some young black bear cubs under orders from their mother to climb the tree.”

“No kidding?” said one of the men, donning a gray parka. “Bears can climb trees? I never knew that.”

“Yes, well, not all bears. Black bears of this region are quite the experts at climbing trees because they are often under threat from the more aggressive Grizzly bear.”

“What? There are Grizzly bears in this place?” There was a slight hint of fear detectable in the woman’s voice.

“Yes, and you were warned of that in the distribution of the safety pamphlet that we handed out earlier.” He gazed, irritated, across the sea of guilty countenances that clearly showed few of them had paid much attention to the pamphlet in the first place.

“Okay, as the pamphlet mentioned, it is best when traveling into bear country to carry pepper spray to repel a bear away from you at close range. And it is also recommended to take little bells and strap them to some part of you in order for the noise to scare away nearby predators.”

He sighed. “In any case, a way you can tell a difference between a black bear and grizzly bear without seeing them is by their droppings.” He stooped low. “Gather around,” and motioned with his hand.

“In this sample, we can see the basic diet of a black bear.” He prodded the feces with a twig as his audience glanced on in disgust. “You see here, we have berry skins and some undigested grass blades. This gives you a typical black bear diet; berries and grass. Black bears also enjoy grubs, ants, bees, and the occasional meat they can get their paws on.”

One of the people asked, “What’s that smell? That ain’t no berry smell. It’s weird.”

“That,” replied the ranger as he walked over to a nearby bush, “comes from this pile of droppings. Grizzly bear droppings. It’s a rare thing to see the two bears together in the same area, which led me to infer that the grizzly bear was intruding on a mother black bear’s territory. A show of strength probably followed, while the cubs were sent up that tree for their protection.”
“Yeah, but why that smell?”

“Well, as I said, you can infer a bear’s diet from its droppings. While black bear droppings usually contain herbs and insects, a grizzly bear can be usually identified for the stench of pepper and-” He prodded the sample over- “little gold bells.”

The attention of the crowd suddenly intensified significantly.

black bear 84
 
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