George W. Bush (Warning: Lengthy)
- Thread starter 38splfan
- Start date
I've seen the term "leadership" tossed about. There's leadership, then there's this leadership: stay on vacation while a submarine sinks (Putin, the Kursk) or stay on vacation while a city sinks (Bush, New Orleans). Neither man caused either incident, but neither showed leadership either. Hope they both enjoyed their vacations.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
God, I hate defending GW. Would take my last vote back if I could......but:
Was there something Bush could do from DC that he couldn't from Crawford? Phones down? Video conferencing down? War Room interface down? Everybody in DC doing the party thing when he leaves town?
"Leadership" is about everything BUT image of "springing into action". That's a Jimmy Carter / Chuck Schumer tactic. Leadership is about calm under fire. Leadership is about getting something done, regardless of whether the cameras are rolling.
In an unprecedented move, he declared a National Disaster before it occurred in order to give **State* Authorities the ability to call in Federal resources.....and, believe it or not, he wasn't even IN DC! The Governor chose to hold. He called the Governor and finally the NOLA Mayor at home and pleaded for evacuation. They both chose to wait.
Rich
Was there something Bush could do from DC that he couldn't from Crawford? Phones down? Video conferencing down? War Room interface down? Everybody in DC doing the party thing when he leaves town?
"Leadership" is about everything BUT image of "springing into action". That's a Jimmy Carter / Chuck Schumer tactic. Leadership is about calm under fire. Leadership is about getting something done, regardless of whether the cameras are rolling.
In an unprecedented move, he declared a National Disaster before it occurred in order to give **State* Authorities the ability to call in Federal resources.....and, believe it or not, he wasn't even IN DC! The Governor chose to hold. He called the Governor and finally the NOLA Mayor at home and pleaded for evacuation. They both chose to wait.
Rich
The trouble with being this president, is that it doesn't matter if he has leadership qualities, or abilities. The opposition, the left, has control of most of the media in that they, the media, love a cat fight and controversy. All the left does is continually harp because they have lost power. They don't hate George Bush, per se. He is just the figurehead of the power structure that "stole" their "right" to be in charge. They are not in touch with the fact that they lost power because they have no solutions to anything. In fact their loopy policies have created much of the stagnation that exists in government. In fact, they had 50 years to build it. The trickle down theory works just fine. In this case the intellectual vacuity and corruption is in the government controlled by leftists, even at the local level. They are frantic to get their power back at the national level, not because they have any solutions. They just want the power that the ability to tax and make laws giving them more power. The media is a willing co conspirator because it sells papers and advertisement. It also doesn't hurt that many in the media are leftist themselves. Thank goodness for the internet, talk radio and the little difference Fox has made from time to isolated time.
The right has the plans and the policies, they just don't have the will and are afraid of the power they have wrested away from the left. There are a few who are being effective. The test of whether they are effective is told by the hate and venom directed at them by the left. I'd hazard a guess that if most on the right have lost faith with the figureheads in charge, it's because they have betrayed the conservatism than put them in power.
This tragedy proves, once again, what all of you at TFL and other like places know and understand; the responsibility to take care of oneself resides with oneself. It's nice to have the assistance of "government" as an organizer of the masses of Americans who will step to the plate every time. If things are going badly along the gulf coast, it's because we have not experienced something of this scale, ever. The question that begs being asked is...Could it be that things are really going very well, considering the magnitude of the tragedy?
Semper Fi, Americans.
The right has the plans and the policies, they just don't have the will and are afraid of the power they have wrested away from the left. There are a few who are being effective. The test of whether they are effective is told by the hate and venom directed at them by the left. I'd hazard a guess that if most on the right have lost faith with the figureheads in charge, it's because they have betrayed the conservatism than put them in power.
This tragedy proves, once again, what all of you at TFL and other like places know and understand; the responsibility to take care of oneself resides with oneself. It's nice to have the assistance of "government" as an organizer of the masses of Americans who will step to the plate every time. If things are going badly along the gulf coast, it's because we have not experienced something of this scale, ever. The question that begs being asked is...Could it be that things are really going very well, considering the magnitude of the tragedy?
Semper Fi, Americans.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Gramps....shhhhh. From your lips to God's ear, as they say.
Fact is, we have come to a time in this nation when death, in fact all deaths, could be prevented by the personal intervention of the President of the United States, if he were just in the "Other Party".
My 90 year old Dad will be ecstatic!
Rich
orionengnr
New member
excellent discourse
and Rich, +1
would that more people read and understand facts, and law...
and not jump on whatever poll or bandwagon the media is selling today...
we might actually get somewhere.
ah well, maybe some day...
and Rich, +1
would that more people read and understand facts, and law...
and not jump on whatever poll or bandwagon the media is selling today...
we might actually get somewhere.
ah well, maybe some day...
Rich,
My mom will soon be 94. Her memory is fading and she sleeps a lot, but she, like your dad, raised a good son. As long as we continue having discourse like this (and I salute you for your efforts in this regard) the Republic will survive this polarity that exists. Don't worry, the Heartland runs from sea to shining sea.
My mom will soon be 94. Her memory is fading and she sleeps a lot, but she, like your dad, raised a good son. As long as we continue having discourse like this (and I salute you for your efforts in this regard) the Republic will survive this polarity that exists. Don't worry, the Heartland runs from sea to shining sea.
That's rather ironic, how it's phrased...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the city already sunk, to the tune of 6-12 feet below sea level, before Katrina hit?
The levees on the canals let go. Regardless of how perfectly designed and built the bespectacled engineers thought they were, Mother Nature (once again) got the last word in.
And the way the moonbats are barking, it's *all* Bush's fault.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the city already sunk, to the tune of 6-12 feet below sea level, before Katrina hit?
The levees on the canals let go. Regardless of how perfectly designed and built the bespectacled engineers thought they were, Mother Nature (once again) got the last word in.
And the way the moonbats are barking, it's *all* Bush's fault.
CarbineCaleb
New member
Given that an event of this very nature has been predicted as inevitable for New Orleans for years, and the timing of this specific event was known in advance for days... I do think there is plenty of blame to go all around.
Civil authorities are not just supposed to have equipment and employees, they're supposed to have plans in place for likely scenarios before they ever happen, and the means to carry them out. Then with days of warning, they should have just put those plans into action. Didn't happen that way.
Having said that, IMO, at this point, the priority should be on addressing all the considerable trouble that still exists, not pointing fingers and watching people cover their butts and shift blame. Plenty of time for that later.
Civil authorities are not just supposed to have equipment and employees, they're supposed to have plans in place for likely scenarios before they ever happen, and the means to carry them out. Then with days of warning, they should have just put those plans into action. Didn't happen that way.
Having said that, IMO, at this point, the priority should be on addressing all the considerable trouble that still exists, not pointing fingers and watching people cover their butts and shift blame. Plenty of time for that later.
I may have been hasty and harsh in my comment. And I hate making Rich defend Dubya. Really. I'll wait a few months for the commissions to do their thing and for the linen to air. But I wish Dubya would have taken the initiative (or taken it again) and called the governors affected and asked again, what he could do for immediate help. This comment from Dubya doesn't help: "Mike Brown is doing a heckuva job." That would be the former FEMA chief he's talking about. And wasn't Dubya all for creating DHS and placing FEMA under its control? That right there eviscerated FEMA and ruined its immediate response capability. Didn't the governor of Louisiana (another story in herself) actually call Bush and ask that he declare the emergency? If not, I'm hearing different things from "reliable sources."
I'll wait a few months for the commissions to do their thing and for the linen to air. But I wish Dubya would have taken the initiative (or taken it again) and called the governors affected and asked again, what he could do for immediate help. This comment from Dubya doesn't help: "Mike Brown is doing a heckuva job." That would be the former FEMA chief he's talking about. And wasn't Dubya all for creating DHS and placing FEMA under its control? That right there eviscerated FEMA and ruined its immediate response capability. Didn't the governor of Louisiana (another story in herself) actually call Bush and ask that he declare the emergency? If not, I'm hearing different things from "reliable sources."adobewalls
Inactive
Just imagine what the Left would be braying now IF Bush had broke the law and overstepped his jurisdiction. The howls to impeach would rise to the heavens - and they would finally have real legal grounds for an impeachment.
At the best, this just demonstrates the Governor was in so over her head she could not recognize an opportunity to show real leadership when she had it - Bush would have given her the credit. At worst, for you fellow cynics out there, this reeks of gamesmanship on the part of the demos.
At the best, this just demonstrates the Governor was in so over her head she could not recognize an opportunity to show real leadership when she had it - Bush would have given her the credit. At worst, for you fellow cynics out there, this reeks of gamesmanship on the part of the demos.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
More complicated than that. Bush doesn't get blame for the hurricane. He can't be blamed for the First Responder deficit. But he is to be blamed for the failure of the support troops (FEMA). He put Brown in the position.....Brown wasn't up to the Task when the Task required bureaucratic ingenuity.
On balance, IMHO, FEMA wouldn't have moved quicker under any other Head, unless he was willing to create a Constitutional Crisis by taking over. Still, Brown and/or perhaps Chertoff need to go....completely.....today.
Rich
adobewalls
Inactive
I do have to agree with you on rolling the FEMA heads; and, I think the after action investigation will result in some fundemental and material changes of the relationships between the National and local governments.
The question is, will these changes be for the better?
The question is, will these changes be for the better?
woodbridge
New member
Bush responsibility
Without discussing the considerable merits of states' rights, FEMA had a role to play (whether it should have been as "first string" or "bench strength") and it seems to have failed. Witness the change of command with Brown being booted. Why can't Bush take responsibility for his appointment of Brown and apologize for the substantial failure of a federal agency?
In my opinion, failure to do so weakens him politically. Stonewalling is a display of stubborness, not strength. Are we expected to believe that Brown was replaced by the Vice Admiral and nobody will notice, therefore we can hypnotize ourselves into believing that Brown was not just another political hack who disserved the entire nation?
Certainly this administration is not alone in promoting "insiders" who are not expert in their government duties. What is troubling is that everything is being swept under the rug.
One does not need to be a liberal to condemn ineffective government at ANY level. Our right to criticize and protect ourselves from government corruption, incompetence and encroachments is what the Bill of Rights is all about, isn't it?
As a "constitutionalist", I hate to see any government official just kind of shrug his or her shoulders and ask us to believe that there is "no fault" in their performance. It is that belief in the Constitution and the belief that government needs to be accountable that makes me a conservative. I don't believe that putting "loyalty" and political expediency above accountablility is a conservative value.
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Without discussing the considerable merits of states' rights, FEMA had a role to play (whether it should have been as "first string" or "bench strength") and it seems to have failed. Witness the change of command with Brown being booted. Why can't Bush take responsibility for his appointment of Brown and apologize for the substantial failure of a federal agency?
In my opinion, failure to do so weakens him politically. Stonewalling is a display of stubborness, not strength. Are we expected to believe that Brown was replaced by the Vice Admiral and nobody will notice, therefore we can hypnotize ourselves into believing that Brown was not just another political hack who disserved the entire nation?
Certainly this administration is not alone in promoting "insiders" who are not expert in their government duties. What is troubling is that everything is being swept under the rug.
One does not need to be a liberal to condemn ineffective government at ANY level. Our right to criticize and protect ourselves from government corruption, incompetence and encroachments is what the Bill of Rights is all about, isn't it?
As a "constitutionalist", I hate to see any government official just kind of shrug his or her shoulders and ask us to believe that there is "no fault" in their performance. It is that belief in the Constitution and the belief that government needs to be accountable that makes me a conservative. I don't believe that putting "loyalty" and political expediency above accountablility is a conservative value.
Edit/Delete Message
Rich Lucibella
Staff
I suspect Bush hasn't "apologized" partially because of reactions such as yours.
Brown seemed to have performed well enough when Florida saw one of its worst Hurricane Seasons ever last year. He seems to have done well enough in AL and MS. Only in LA were things different. That's where the limits of Brown's ability were found: when the LA Governor failed to request assistance, as required by law for FEMA to step in, Brown wasn't up to the task of convincing her.
Bush pulled him off the scene and replaced him after agreeing to a full investigation. I suspect he's not apologizing because you would then take it to the next level, claiming that "Bush has admitted that all the problems in LA were his fault".
Funny, I haven't seen any calls for apology from Blanco who created the crisis in the first place, when she refused to declare a timely emergency and place Nat Guard in New Orleans before the storm; and then refused to allow the Red Cross into the Superdome to deliver food and water. I haven't seen too many calls for apology from the Mayor who held off on the evac order until it was too late and failed to follow the city plan for orderly and assisted evacuation. What's up with that?
Rich
Brown seemed to have performed well enough when Florida saw one of its worst Hurricane Seasons ever last year. He seems to have done well enough in AL and MS. Only in LA were things different. That's where the limits of Brown's ability were found: when the LA Governor failed to request assistance, as required by law for FEMA to step in, Brown wasn't up to the task of convincing her.
Bush pulled him off the scene and replaced him after agreeing to a full investigation. I suspect he's not apologizing because you would then take it to the next level, claiming that "Bush has admitted that all the problems in LA were his fault".
Funny, I haven't seen any calls for apology from Blanco who created the crisis in the first place, when she refused to declare a timely emergency and place Nat Guard in New Orleans before the storm; and then refused to allow the Red Cross into the Superdome to deliver food and water. I haven't seen too many calls for apology from the Mayor who held off on the evac order until it was too late and failed to follow the city plan for orderly and assisted evacuation. What's up with that?
Rich
RE: George W Bush
Yes, libs do want to blame Bush for eveything just like they did Reagan, an earthquake could hit the Himalayas and it was his fault,just ask any lib and they'll tell you! Bush asked Louisianas Gov. to declare an emergency,she said she needs 24hrs. Sooner or later our left wing media will be dragged kicking and screaming to the truth and it might even make al-jazeera west(cnn) admit it someday. Until then, people like Hungarian gazillionaire George Soros and his lefty buddies will continue with there mis-led attempts at diseet. The GOP should do very well in 06 because of the lefts vomitous rant.
Yes, libs do want to blame Bush for eveything just like they did Reagan, an earthquake could hit the Himalayas and it was his fault,just ask any lib and they'll tell you! Bush asked Louisianas Gov. to declare an emergency,she said she needs 24hrs. Sooner or later our left wing media will be dragged kicking and screaming to the truth and it might even make al-jazeera west(cnn) admit it someday. Until then, people like Hungarian gazillionaire George Soros and his lefty buddies will continue with there mis-led attempts at diseet. The GOP should do very well in 06 because of the lefts vomitous rant.
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adobewalls
Inactive
Well the NYT is now in full SPIN mode covering for Blanco.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/n...&ex=1127016000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print
I have to agree with you Rich, the way the media and Bush Bashers are looking to interpret any apology would be as an admission of guilt or culpability. They have tried this tactic before.
The sad thing is, while there could be real lessons learned from this, the atmosphere has been so poisoned by the Bush Bashers relentless blame Bush for everything for the last 4-3/4 years that any criticism they offer is suspect regardless of merit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/n...&ex=1127016000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print
I have to agree with you Rich, the way the media and Bush Bashers are looking to interpret any apology would be as an admission of guilt or culpability. They have tried this tactic before.
The sad thing is, while there could be real lessons learned from this, the atmosphere has been so poisoned by the Bush Bashers relentless blame Bush for everything for the last 4-3/4 years that any criticism they offer is suspect regardless of merit.
