Garand Thumb - Facts and Myths

Gyvel, that's another one I never heard of, and respectfully, these days the clips should be weaker than ever but...this isn't happening
Click to expand...

You're probably right; I was just using that as a hypothetical. I've been (thus far) fortunate enough to escape the M1 thumb. When I was in college in the early 60s, we used M1s for drill in ROTC, but I already knew about the "M1 thumb" from my father, who was in the Battle of the Bulge during WWII.

By the time I was on active duty, the swing was on to the M16. (Although we qualified with M1 Carbines at my first U.S. duty station after basic training.):D
 
First, on "weak" clips. A "weak" clip is not going to allow ammunition to spray all over the place (where to these ideas come from??). A weak clip will allow the rifle to close up automatically without the operator tapping the op rod handle. Weak clips showed up in training, where clips were repeatedly reloaded from boxed ammo, and in target shooting where competitors deliberately weakened clips to gain a second or so advantage by not having to hit the op rod. But in combat, ammo was fresh from sealed cans, packed in clips, in bandoliers; there were no spare clips for loading and no need to re-use clips and it was very rarely done.

Hi, Amsdorf,

No, your ancient history documents date to before WWII, when the rifle was something new and was, as you correctly say, referred to as the Garand rather than the M1. I have seen those documents and also have copies of the American Rifleman from the 1930's in which the rifle is trashed, while the Johnson is praised. Ultimately, the shooters of that time considered that nothing could surpass the M1903 and that any semi-automatic was an inaccurate, unreliable bullet sprayer that could never be successfully used in combat.

But no FM, no TM, no MWO throughout WWII and after called the rifle by any name other than "M1" (or M1C, M1D). And I would venture to say that 99.99% of the soldiers who used it never heard of John Garand. I served 1955 to 1957 and I never heard any instructor, officer, NCO or anyone else call the rifle other than an M1.

Sorry, but the "myth" is that the rifle was called the "Garand" by the soldiers. You have taken a few informal documents from the earliest days and claimed they are absolute proof that the troops always called the M1 rifle by its inventor's name. That is simply not the case.

I have no idea how long you served in the military or in what branch of service, or if you were issued an M1 rifle, but if you called it a Garand, your fellow service members would have wondered what you were talking about.

Jim
 
I'm not denying that the rifle was called the M1. Indeed, it was, but those who claim it was never referred to as a Garand are simply mistaken.

Head on over to other Garand forums and you can argue this until the cows come home.

: )
 
First, on "weak" clips. A "weak" clip is not going to allow ammunition to spray all over the place (where to these ideas come from??). A weak clip will allow the rifle to close up automatically without the operator tapping the op rod handle.
Click to expand...

That is what I was talking about. As to M1 thumb loading a full clip, when that bolt rides forward without bein told, you are right the round keeps your thumb out of the chamber, but the bolt head still has room to catch the thumb between it and the top of the reciever, and I can tell you it does remove flesh.
 
The round doesn't keep the thumb out of the way, the thumb pushing down on the top round keeps it from moving; it can't move forward and let the bolt close until the thumb is removed.

Amsdorf, I note you did not answer the question about your own service or age and how you have such expert knowledge of what was done in those years.

I am not going to argue with you any more; you can have your own ideas and your own "proofs". But if you ever actually get to see one of those rifles, you might read what it says on it. It doesn't say "GARAND", it says "M1".

JIm
 
First, on "weak" clips. A "weak" clip is not going to allow ammunition to spray all over the place (where to these ideas come from??). A weak clip will allow the rifle to close up automatically without the operator tapping the op rod handle.
Click to expand...

ChrisB^^This is what I assumed the poster was referring to when he mentioned a "weak clip."

As another poster observed, it can and will result in a thumb injury.
 
JimK, you are free to hold your opinion. I'm simply trying to tell you what the facts are. The assertion that "nobody" called it a Garand is simply not true. Yes, it was known as the M1 and that was how it was referred to by nearly everyone, but the military had also referred to it as a Garand.

As for if I ever get to see one....

Well, I've got eight of them in my gun safe right now, and they are very nice to look at.

Even more fun to shoot.
 
where to these ideas come from??
Click to expand...

From trying to read your mind. But like I said and illustrated, I can't see my description happening. ;)

Can somebody get a finger or thumb where it's not supposed to be? Sure.

But you're telling me that by design, the M1 rifle isn't supposed to strip the first round without a bump from the heel of my right hand. Okey dokey, fine. I read it, I just don't have to believe it. I do believe it's fairly rare to have that happen consistently, but I do not believe that the rifle is malfunctioning when it happens. It sounds to me like we are now splitting hairs about a rifle functioning properly or improperly leading to M1 thumb on loading. And my opinion is: on a malfunction, bets are off

Sorry if anyone finds that mean or whatnot. Maybe this isn't my best day but I'm a man that really tries to say what he means to say, and I see no other way to say that- to me, a rifle is broken if it's not working as intended

But Jim for what it's worth, that picture scares me too :) I'm pleased to say it was hard to get my rifle to do it for the photo
 
Last edited:
Gee..my dad served in combat in Europe during WWII...he always called it Garand. He was in before the war and saw the introduction of the M1.
 
Don't feel bad, the next generation of kiddoes will refer to the M16 as the "Stoner" at some point in our future...

Jimro
 
The Garand monicker reminds me of a discussion re: the scene in Saving Private Ryan when the trooper calls P-51s 'tank busters' that I've had with other collectors.

The term makes them rankle, even when I cite squadrons of the 8th AF that flew P-51s in exactly that role, on D-Day. To some, the term was correct. To others it was not. In the war and after. Just like the term "Garand'- some GIs used it, some didn't. Personally since I didn't know John Garand, and the name of the rifle is the M1 rifle, I usually call it a ham and swiss on rye since it's instantly recognizable anyway
 
Hi, Chris B.

I may not have been clear, but I meant to say the opposite - the M1 was designed to load the first round without the operator hitting the op ord handle. I don't know if clip tension might have been increased at some point, perhaps to insure against rounds coming loose in shipping.

I am also looking forward to hearing from all the folks who call the M1 carbine a "Williams".

Jim
 
There I was, all alone and hunkered in my parka, when the whole squad started towards me at a run. I raised my "Williams" and...................

naw, just dont' sound like I remember it, sorry James.;)
 
To be honest, there is an awful lot of Thomas C. Johnson in the M1 Carbine, so it would be more approproate to say: "There I was, all alone and hunkered in my parka, when the whole squad started towards me at a run. I pulled out my "Johnson" and...................":D:D:D
 
Once upon a time I had the stock off my M1 and the bolt open. I was holding it in my left hand balancing it, sitting in a chair. I leaned down to the right and reached for a brush, the Garand tilted toward the barrel end and the follower touched my thumb, the bolt slammed forward and I had the whole thing hanging off the end of my thumb. :eek: So I'm gonna vote fact. In the process of handling one with the bolt back, its possible to close the bolt on a finger, or thumb in several different ways. So care and caution should be used. Its probably not gonna cut your thumb off, but it hurts. :o
 
I leaned down to the right and reached for a brush, the Garand tilted toward the barrel end and the follower touched my thumb, the bolt slammed forward and I had the whole thing hanging off the end of my thumb.
Click to expand...

Sounds like the bolt wasn't locked back, but just hung up on the follower. I'll bet it looked something like Chris_B's photo.

I've never had a M1 close while my thumb was pressing on the top round in the clip.

I do make sure the bolt is locked all the way back before sticking my fingers in there to clean the chamber or anything before firing.
 
OK, I am a believer and all the soldiers and Marines, including WWII vets, I heard call it an M1 were figments of my imagination.

Yes, in the early days of the Garand-Springfield dispute and later in Garand-Johnson controversy, the rifle was commonly called a "Garand" in the popular press as well as in the few gun and hunting magazines that wrote about it. Some people did continue to call it that, but the official manuals, the instructors and the common troops called it what they had been trained to call it, the M1 rifle. The troops called it the M1 to the end of its service life when it was replaced by the M14 ("Son of Garand", maybe) and the "Stoner", aka the M16.

When the CMP began selling those rifles, they had a manual prepared that called it the M1 Garand. I don't know if that resurrected the name, or if it is just a common trend of the Mall Ninjas to name guns (I saw "Glockie" the other day), but the name Garand ("Garry" in one post) has come back in vogue and is used by many of those who run around in cammies and pretend to be veterans of some war or another.

My opinion of the man himself is that he was a genius and that his rifle was what was needed to help the U.S. win over the Axis powers; I have nothing but the highest regard for him, though I only met him one time for a few minutes. So I do not mean to insult his memory by saying that his name was not commonly applied to the rifle he invented. But it wasn't.

Jim
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top