Front Sight Press AND Quick Kill??

[Skyguy]

Leadbutt:

Lazer sites, great for training NEW shooters in SIGHT USE, but lousy for "PS", found they tend to look at the dot more then feeling the weapon and the body's index.

Nothing personal, but.....you're joking, right?

You're saying that in a stressed out situation, you would 'feel' your weapon, use your tiny 'sights' and your 'body's index' in a lowlight/darkness shootout......where 70% of all police shootouts take place.

And you see no benefit in being able to single-index aim a dot on a threat from an unorthodox angle or compromised/cover position......which allows an officer to scan the area for accomplices, weapons and movement while verifiably remaining on target.

Or are you talking about shooting paper targets at the range?

....and btw, 'looking at the dot' is the whole point of using a laser sight.

As for point shooting in low light or darkness, it's kinda silly past a close encounter. Accuracy in point-shooting is significantly affected as darkness and distance increases.

Az Qkr:

Obviously written by someone who DOESN'T know anything about pointshooting who is only stating opinion as fact with an agenda in mind.

Brownie, please respond with facts and constructive information.
I know enough about point shooting to stand behind those comments and say that they are 'spot on'.
.

 

[nscale]

I have read this with great enjoyment

My friend is a cop or (Leo), excuss my ignorance, but I am not even sure what Leo means? He carries a Glock with a laser.

He is the guy that taught me how to shoot well enough that I feel comfortable carrying my weapon. Thank fully I have not had to use it, but if I did, I have learned enough to keep from shooting an innocent bystander ( I would hope).
I am also confident I could hit my target, because he has taught me not to depend on the sites of the pistol. I guess it is a point and shoot technique. I have spent many hours practicing and will continue to do so because the technique requires practice and is fun as well. I will say that it can be likened to riding a bike. Once I got the idea, it became a natural method.

As I read this post (this vs. that) it reminded me of a story he told me. He was breaking up a fight and found himself on the ground. As he was scrambling he found he was being approached by a guy with gun drawn and poined at him. Still on his back, he pulled his weapon and pointed it at the bad guy. He admitted that if it had not been for the laser he would have probably shot himself in the knee, had he pulled the trigger. Obviously he dropped his leg and the dot landed on the bad guy. Fortunatly the friend of the bad guy who originally knocked him on the ground stepped between my friend and his, to prevent the shooting. Maybe he saw the dot.

No one got hurt, but there is no doubt in my mind that my friend could have hit the guy without even looking at his weapon. This is the skill he has been kind enough to pass on to me. There are 2 morals to the story.
1. The laser is a good tool to determine if you have a clear path, and
2. Don't fall down.

 

[Az Qkr]

"some point shooting methods might be classified as semi-sighted because of gross visual references and geometric alignment of body coordinates."

What part of that is not accurate?"

It suggests more than one [ by using the word some ] pointshooting methods can be classified as semi-sighted. Thats wrong. I know of three, maybe a fourth, workable pointshooting methods, QK is not semi-sighted, that would leave the other two, maybe three to get to the "some" in that statement.

FAS is not semi sighted pointshooting, thats another one. DR Middlebrooks has a method that is "pointshooting", not called semi sighted pointshooting, that leaves ONE, maybe two.

Quick fire is not semi sighted, I have trained in that system and know it as well as QK. That leaves how many possible known pointshooting methods? Ya, like I said, the statements is wrong, and the person who wrote it has about as much knowledge of pointshooting as I do climbing Mt. Everest. Basically non existant. All that article does is perpetuate misconceptions and make mistatements that others with even less knowledge end up believing is true.

Sorry, not on my watch!!!!!!!! "Or.....in simplest terms....it ain't right just cause some undisclosed writer says so.

No one until Enos wrote of such about 16 years ago had a problem with what descriptors were used to describe sighted [ including semi sighted ], pointshooting [ not using the sights ].

You ARE either using the sights in some way, or you are NOT. Semi sighted suggests somehow visually referencing the sights and is not pointshooting. I find that a gross error, and historically I am correct.

"Or.....in simplest terms....it ain't right just cause some undisclosed writer says so.

Skyguy:

See above on the first, and where this:

"Point-shooting requires maintenance to sustain proficiency and may deteriorate with disruption of baseline standards such as footing, angles, height disparities, etc."

is concerned, if you are suggesting that one reqires maintenance to sustain proficiency in pointshooting and that it may deteriorate with disruption of baseline standards of footing, angles and height, perhaps you should rethink your position of "I know enough about point shooting to stand behind those comments", as the above is wrong, and ANY properly trained pointshooter knows quite well.

Have you been formally trained in FAS or QK? What method of pointshooting have you been trained in? Any? There are only a few methodologies that have history of success and therefor are considered reliable or worthy of having in the bag of tricks [ because they are reliable and repeatable ]. Which one were you trained in?

As I know you have mil service, if your background in pointshooting is from that source, it expalins a lot relative your understanding, or misunderstanding for that matter. If not from that source, what known pointshooter trained you in one of the established [ as in historical ] pointshooting methods?

Having been trained in FAS by a direct student of Applegate who is considered one of, if not the knowledge base of the pure method used back then, and having been trained myself by the originator and master of Quick Kill, having used QK for 25 years now, I think I may know just a little more about pointshooting than the average BooBoo out there.

You've mentioned your pointshooting in the past, I think it's time to disclose your formal training and what method that training ocurred in. See, I don't put much stock in people who tell me they pointshoot, or are pointshooters to some varying degree until I can determine just where they learned to pointshoot, by whom, and in what system.

That way, it is easier to also determine just who has some real knowledge of a known and accepted form of pointshooting [ historical in nature ] and who may be lacking in actual knowledge but assumes they pointshoot cause they don't look at their sights or read Enos' work, with it's inherent varying results which further this type of discussion.

Hope that is enough "facts and constructive information" for you.

Robin Brown

 

[nscale]

Are there any good books

Az Qkr,
I gather from this post you instruct on Quick Kill (QK). This is new to me. Is there anyone in the Houston area that trains in this or similar shooting techniques?

Can you or anyone recommend any books that explain the different types of point shooting techniques or styles?
Sorry this info may be in another post, I have'nt searched.

 

[matthew temkin]

Start with these..

1) KILL OR GET KILLED by Rex Applegate.
Available via paladin Press or from other internet booksellers. www.paladinpress.com

2) SHOOTING TO LIVE by Fairbairn and Sykes

3) Quick or DEAD by William Cassidy.

4) SHOOTING FOR KEEPS (Video)

The following are avaiable from Mike Rayburn at
http://www.pointshooting.org

POINTSHOOTING (video)

ADVANCED PATROL TACTICS (Book)
Excellent book with four great chapters on point shooting.

 

[Az Qkr]

"I gather from this post you instruct on Quick Kill (QK). This is new to me. Is there anyone in the Houston area that trains in this or similar shooting techniques?"

Yes, thats correct, I train others in QK and hold the registered copyright to the QK with a pistol or revolver technique.

To my knowledge very few have the pure form of QK from Bobby Lamar " Lucky" McDaniel who developed and taught the technique privately with the pistols.

Certainly none trained at his hands are currently training others in QK as I am.

I am engaged in setting up training classes this year and going forward in the future in QK. If you are still interested, email me at arizonaqkr@yahoo.com and we can discuss this off the boards here.

Robin Brown

 

[leadbutt]

Nope not joking ,,just my opinon, and yes you do need to feel your lock point and weapon in the dark,, BTDT

We have used it for training,those whom where classed as untrainable, and did use it to sights, almost as a ball and dummy course

 

[Skyguy]

Az Qkr

You've mentioned your pointshooting in the past, I think it's time to disclose your formal training and what method that training ocurred in.

My 'formal' point shooting training is Army AB; close quarters/hand to hand, bayonet, handgun, etc. It's been 40 years now and I don't have any memory of what was the name of the 'method'.

All I know is that it was instinctive, super simple to learn and become proficient at.

The drill is to focus on the target with 'both' eyes, crouch, raise the pistol to line of sight, cover the target with the back of the slide/barrel axis...and shoot. I'm really good at hitting a 12" circle up to about 30'.

But the greater the distance and/or the darker it gets, the harder it is to stay on target.
Throw in awkward or compromised positions, bad terrain, cover, difficult angles....not to mention the advantage of scanning, target designation and de-escaltion....and I want a laser sight.
.

 

[Az Qkr]

The drill is to focus on the target with 'both' eyes, crouch, raise the pistol to line of sight, cover the target with the back of the slide/barrel axis...and shoot. I'm really good at hitting a 12" circle up to about 30'.

No doubt using that method is good for you after that much time on it, even as it appears to not be one of the more reliable and recognized methods of pointshooting much past 5 yrds. [ I'll explain why later here ].

"But the greater the distance and/or the darker it gets, the harder it is to stay on target."

That may be very true with what you describe.

"Throw in awkward or compromised positions, bad terrain, cover, difficult angles....not to mention the advantage of scanning, target designation and de-escaltion....and I want a laser sight."

That seems like a logical statement to a degree after we understand you were instructed in a technique that requires a croutch [ certain stance ].

As Qk doesn't rely on any croutching or otherwise and can be performed and has been performed upside down and backwards, on ones sides, either side one or two handed [ stance ], can be performed one or two handed as necessary [ angles ], is not in ones line of sight to affect vision [ scanning ], is as easy to identify threats as though one did not even have a gun [ target designation ], and will not be used to threaten but kill when the time is necessary [ de-escalation ], I have to conclude that when you stated:

"I know enough about point shooting to stand behind those comments and say that they are 'spot on'."

That you were talking strictly the method you use, which has no recognition of methodology within the realm of reliable, effective pointshooting. Perhaps you should have stated that you know enough about the method you use and not made the statement using the generic term "pointshooting"

When you stated you knew enough about pointshooting to call the unknown author spot on, I have to believe he has about as much knowoledge of pointshooting methodologies as you do, which is very narrow in scope in reality.

Your assessment is based on what you were shown and do, not on other methodologies that are recognized. Lets keep that straight for the readers so they are not confused when you make such statements about your knowledge of pointshooting.

The presumption you were taught someones idea of pointshooting with a handgun in the army was correct. They have never been able to get the pistol skills right [ with the exception of quick fire ], and it should be noted they never officially adopted any pistol/revolver pointshooting system with the exception of quick fire, whether they trained people like you and called it pointshooting or some other name you can't remember.

Quick Fire is close to the description you provide, and it's strengths are not the equal to QK both in repeatable accuracy nor in the distance it can be employed successfully. QF is reliable but at the shorter ranges, not to be extended past 5 yrds. QK is easily taken to 30 feet with shots staying inside 6-8 inches with ain a short period of time.

Once the QK is learned, it is owned. It is not a skill that degrades over time without practice. The skill does not degrade, ones trigger control, handhold, and other problems arise from lack of practice.

Robin Brown

 

[Skyguy]

Az Qkr

That seems like a logical statement to a degree after we understand you were instructed in a technique that requires a crouch [ certain stance ].

Although I did it, I didn't fully understand the reason for close encounter (point shoot) training from a crouch position.....until I started to get shot at....and then I spent nearly every waking moment in a crouch.
Seems like I went months at a time in a crouch. I'd take cover in a crouch, I'd run in a crouch. I'd eat and **** in a crouch. I'd even sleep in a crouch. lol

Thank God, my Army AB instructors had real life combat experience.

They followed a manual, but they also knew what the hell they were talking about. They'd say 'this' or 'that' is going to happen and you guys will respond 'this way or that way'.
They drilled us as though we were their own kids...always saying "you guys will thank me later".

Now I understand that if you don't shoot from a crouch, you're simply inexperienced and clueless.

Anyway, I don't see much value in dissecting and examining the slight differences between all the commercial 'methods', lineage and Brand Names of point shooting. Doesn't matter.

It matters to you because you have an ingrained emotional investment in your particular Brand of point shooting. That's probably why you bad mouth the various other commercial point shooting Brands and laser sights.

But, the bottom line is that I point shoot every bit as well with my military training as all these range commandos out there that tout and brag about their special Brand. I hit the target...from a crouch! lol

Add in dusk, darkness, cover and awkward angles and positions….and my laser equipped 1911 'crutch' blows them away, every time.

 

[Az Qkr]

"Anyway, I don't see much value in dissecting and examining the slight differences between all the commercial 'methods', lineage and Brand Names of point shooting. Doesn't matter."

Of course that statement just reinforces the fact that you do not have a working knowledge of Quick Fire, Quick Kill or FAS, and therefor can't speak intelligently about the differences [ not so slight ] between them.

"It matters to you because you have an ingrained emotional investment in your particular Brand of point shooting. That's probably why you bad mouth the various other commercial point shooting Brands and laser sights."

You sure do like to make assumptions and then state them as facts, thats for sure.

"Now I understand that if you don't shoot from a crouch, you're simply inexperienced and clueless."

Thats laughable at best, and shows others you really do have a limited knowledge base, that being on the ONE method you were trained in.

From QF, QK, FAS, I have many more options at my disposal when I need them. Trained in all of them extensively [ FAS less so ], as well as sighted fire.

"That's probably why you bad mouth the various other commercial point shooting Brands and laser sights."

I haven't badmouthed any other various commercial pointshooting methods. In fact just the opposite. See above. I find value in at least three of the known reliable systems, and can and will use them when they are appropriate.

There are only one, maybe two more that are worthy of consideration. I don't know them so I do not speak with any authority about them. I do speak with authority through a working knowledge of the methods I have trained in and used. Quite the opposite of your posts.

"But, the bottom line is that I point shoot every bit as well with my military training as all these range commandos out there that tout and brag about their special Brand. I hit the target...from a crouch! lol"

Again, you make statements of fact through your limited knowledge. You can not intelligently make the claim you shoot every bit as well as another in anything until you have seen the others shoot.

Look, you were the one who made the case for the laser, in particular these specifically:

"Throw in awkward or compromised positions, bad terrain, cover, difficult angles....not to mention the advantage of scanning, target designation and de-escaltion....and I want a laser sight."

I answered your request for "Brownie, please respond with facts and constructive information." by stating:

"As Qk doesn't rely on any croutching or otherwise and can be performed and has been performed upside down and backwards, on ones sides, either side one or two handed [ stance ], can be performed one or two handed as necessary [ angles ], is not in ones line of sight to affect vision [ scanning ], is as easy to identify threats as though one did not even have a gun [ target designation ], and will not be used to threaten but kill when the time is necessary"

Those are the facts. You made your case for the laser's adavantage based on the above [ croutch/stance, angles, scanning, and target designation ], I responded with what is easily obtainable with QK, therby taking some of those perceived advantages you have over anything else and demonstrating all the specifics are negotiated as well without the laser.

"Add in dusk, darkness, cover and awkward angles and positions….and my laser equipped 1911 'crutch' blows them away, every time."

I'll reiterate what I have written regarding my take on lasers. They are in previous posts. They are limited in scope [ dependant on ones others abilities, great training aids, usefull in lowlight, and good at verifying ones aim to develop certain skills.

Making a case for descalation as you have as another strong point for the use of the laser in a SD situation where a handgun needs to be used, I have to wonder how many times when a gun is NEEDED to defend, the laser will be ised to de-escalate to not having to shoot.

My gun is not coming out unless it is with intent to pull the trigger on someone because thats what is necessary to stay above ground. I do not care to attempt to de-escalate anything when the gun needs to be used as a civilian as some intimidation mentality. That process can likely get one killed IMO.

There's a time for shooting and you get to shooting. I work from a defensive posture as a civilian, not an offensive position similiar to swat or in some instances line officers.

Having been trained in swat and swat commander while carrying a shield, I do know the difference between the two.

You don't seriously think I'm a range commando do you?

Robin Brown

 

[Skyguy]

I found a picture that, although dynamic, is very close to my training to shoot from a crouch.
See the guy on the left.

One foot forward, legs bent at the knees, week hand out for balance, smaller target and always ready to move out of the 'zone'.
(two handed works, too)

Stand up shooters make a nice target.

 

[Harley Quinn]

De-esculate by pulling a weapon?

I believe when show's like "Cops" are all about drawn weapons and it is on TV and everyone think's, that happens all the time. (it does not)

I believe when a weapon is drawn by a civilian who is trying to impress or trying to stop something from going down, without the ability to justify the shooting is only going to esculate it.

If you put the red dot on someone and it is not proper, and you are not LEO.
Well you better get to a phone quick because you are going to need a good attorney (me thinks)?

Most who post are not LEO and if they are it should be recognized as a different situation. If you are shooting targets and like a laser, good.

I believe one of you needs to allow the other the last word or you will be here a long time LOL...

HQ

 

[Az Qkr]

skyguy can have the last word, no need to keep this running any longer, there has been plenty of good information already discussed and your observations are correct.

Robin Brown

 

[nscale]

One thing my Old Dad taught me

Pops always said...

Dont pull it ifin you aint gonna shoot
Dont shootit ifin you anint gonna kill em

Course he also told me God takes care of idiots and Babys, and you aint no baby boy.

 

[pickpocket]

Must....keep....it....alive.....

 

[Skyguy]

Az Qkr:

skyguy can have the last word

Thanks for the deference, Robin. The last word for this thread is:

Most of the folks and leo's have never had to use a gun with bad intentions and, considering the magnitude of this thread, it seems as though they are deeply curious about what to expect and how to respond.

Well, it's simple. Learn to respond at close quarters (30 ft or less) with sightless and laser dot shooting. Use every bit of close quarters training and every tactical advantage available.
The lasergrips are unarguably an immediate tactical advantage, especially in low light-darknes and awkward, compromised positions!

Point shooting is point shooting. Period. They all work. All variations of that tried and true tactical training are commercial endeavors and sales pitch.
Don't get caught up in the hype and the minute details of it all.

Get a Lasergrip and learn to use it. The learning curve is short and the results are absolutely astounding for the expert and novice, young and old, men and women. Old eyes work again.

There is an immediate decisive advantage with Lasergrips, especially on the self defense side of the coin. That's why they're used by cutting edge and modern thinking U.S. Military and NATO forces....and many law enforcement agencies.

So, too, say these experts below:

Ernie Langdon…..IDPA champion, Marine vet, trainer
Massad Ayoob…..World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert
Ken Hackathorn…..international small arms trainer, author, consultant
Mike Dalton…..World IDPA Steel Challenge Champion
Bob Taubert..…Marine officer, FBI Special Agent, counter terrorism expert
Tom Aveni…..Use of force policy expert, police officer, trainer
Marty Hayes…..FAS President, Master handgunner, police officer
Jim Cirrillo
Ted Nugent…..President of United Sportsmen of America, Author and Musician
C. R. Vanderscoff..…Beretta USA, trainer
Eugene Nielsen…..Investigative and Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor
Michael De Bethencourt.....Staff instructor of the Northeastern Tactical Schools
Denny Hansen…..SWAT magazine
Rich Verdi..…trainer
Bob Scott.....Vice-Chairman of the Board, Smith & Wesson
Wes Doss…..trainer
A'Tow Avon…..American Survival Guide
Ralph Mroz.....Training Director, Police Officers Safety Association, Firearms Consultant and Author
Todd Jarrett…..World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer
Leroy Thompson…..Combat Handguns
Colonel Rex Applegate......

Get on aboard the edu-train. Learn to survive a shootout!

This holds a wealth of information:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/

This tells it like it is:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv

Laser Training and Defense Techniques:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv

 

[matthew temkin]

If I was to get a laser I would get a Crimson.
The first one that I ever tried was for a J frame, and quite frankly, I did not like it.
Then in a presentation by Jim Cirillo that I took two years ago we got to play with some others designed for larger handguns and I was very impressed.
Intersting list of experts... 2 of them have been my instructors and three have been point shooting students of mine at seminars.
One thing thought..I knew Applegate fairly well and he did not like laser sights for combat.
When I asked his opinion he said the dot was just something else to look for/slow you down.

 

[Skyguy]

in a presentation by Jim Cirillo that I took two years ago we got to play with some others Lasergrips designed for larger handguns and I was very impressed.

Cirrillo teaches his own version of point shooting, but he never closed his mind to the obvious tactical advantages of the Lasergrip. The man has intellectual honesty and it'll serve us all well.
Cirrillo is a man of the 21st century. He's not stuck in the past.

Just place the dot....and you'll hit that spot.

I knew Applegate fairly well and he did not like laser sights for combat.
When I asked his opinion he said the dot was just something else to look for/slow you down.

But Colonel Rex Applegate did also say:

"In my opinion, the S&W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
====================

Re: the crouch
I was in the taught in the Army AB to crouch as a part of close up combat point shooting.
Regardless of the critique here of the crouch….it 'is' a sound defense posture.

Then, lo and behold, I found these pics of Rex Applegate, Jelly Brice and Bill Jordan:

Colonel Rex Applegate In Point Shooting Position
(Note Knees Bent - Eyes On Target - Not Pistol)

FBI's Jelly Bryce & Bill Jordan of the Border Patrol –
"Gunman's Crouch" and "Standing Tall"

I don't believe any of these guys ever saw combat, but the pictures are interesting.
Applegate taught the crouch....so did Jelly Bryce.

Jordan makes a nice target.

 

[leadbutt]

Well Mr.Bryce never talked about being in the service, but if you went up against him ,you where leaving feet first, Mr.Jordan severed in the Marines,and as I have been told, no first hand knowledge,{didn't ask him} he got really good at clearing caves of the Japs.

Of course "combat" and police shootings are a little different