Front Sight Press AND Quick Kill??

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I have been following this thread and got to the range today for a 200 round session with my new SA XD40 and Black Hawk CQC holster to try this QK stuff out.

I started out at home the other day with my finger and then moved to the empty pistol and really was amazed at how this works. When I was at the range today I started out again with the empty pistol and moved to singles and doubles at 20 feet. I was again amazed at how this works. I was firing doubles as fast as ever with great accuarcy. I moved all over the place out to 40 feet and got consistant COM hits firing doubles and triples and doubles at two targets.

The problem I had with all of this was that I have fired thousands of rounds through my G22 duty gun and have always done my own form of sightless shooting inside 40 feet. I wasn't taught it. It just kind of happened and I can hit as fast as I can pull the trigger out to that distance. I had a hard time keeping from bringing the gun up to my line of sight and had to be very conscious of what I was doing. It just didn't feel natural to me as I am so used to bringing the gun up to my eyes. I can see where this would be a great technique to teach to a beginner, but I think that it will take a huge amount of training for me to make this natural. It is something I will mess around with.
 
steve154:

Glad you were able to find value in QK and that it is an effective technique.

QK is a shortcut, and an effective, reliable shortcut.

Robin Brown
 
Double taps, hammers, quick kill, or whatever you choose to call it, will never be better than steady, aimed fire.
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But that misses the point of QK, point shooting, or whatever term you use. Of course a nice, steady, aimed shot is going to be the best option. But sometimes that option is not available due to environmental, emotional, physiological, or other reasons. Unfortunately, those other reasons frequently pop up during a gunfight!
 
Just trying to pass this along to anyone who might seek specialized self defense firearm training. Arm yourself intellectually with the following info. If the following info is 'not' part and parcel of the training....you'll know that training is half-assed at best.

Here's the info:

When you become scared shltless...your body's natural reactions 'will' take over. That is guaranteed.

The first reaction is an instinctive and spontaneous, involuntary response through the autonomic nervous system; the instinctive crouch.

The next instinctive reaction is to face the threat and push away from the danger trying to create distance.

If one is armed he will attempt to create distance by pushing his weapon to full arm's extension which, because of involuntary reflex, becomes a part/full isosceles.

So, for worthwhile training, practice point shooting with the isosceles from a crouch.......
and, if available, get the immediate tactical advantage of a laser equipped handgun.
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Like it or not.....below is the combat crouch.

The same crouch I learned years ago in Army AB close quarters training. This is the same stance espoused by Applegate and many others that know what combat point shooting is all about.

It is the same crouch that is ridiculed by so-called experts that talk the talk, but have never had to walk the walk.

I post this picture so that those who seek good info will understand that when the shlt hits the fan you 'will' instinctively go into a crouch. You 'will' face the threat and push away from the danger trying to create distance.

So practice most of your point shooting from a crouch and squared up to the threat
.....and, if available, get the immediate tactical advantage of a laser equipped handgun.

There ya go...a thousand dollars worth of good tactical information, for free.

combat%20crouch.bmp.jpg
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This is another picture for those who've never been shot at….including the so-called expert trainers who've mocked the combat crouch.

Some words to the wise:
practice most of your point shooting from a crouch and squared up to the threat
.....and, if available, get the immediate tactical advantage of a laser equipped handgun.

kehoebrothers.jpeg
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Dang skyguy you are one presistant son of a gun!
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Just maybe someone here researched and equipped himself with a proven tactical advantage….a Lasergrip. And maybe not.
I long ago accepted the reality that half the people in the world are below average in intelligence.

Check out this if you all are so inclined. threatfocused.com
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Thanks for the invite, but I have serious disagreement with some of the expert trainers over there. Don't think I'd last very long. lol

For instance:

1. The mindset from the expert trainers over there is to never present a weapon unless you intend to shoot the threat. How silly!
De-escalation of a threatening situation is often necessary and is always preferable to shooting.

2. Lasergrips are frowned upon and dismissed as a serious tactical advantage in a self defense scenario.....even though they are undoubtedly superior to sighted and point shooting in low light and darkness....where the majority of shootings take place.

2. Some expert trainers there refuse to acknowledge even more of the obvious; Lasergrips are vastly superior to semi-sighted or point shooting from cover and compromised or awkward positions.

3. Muzzle flash is barely addressed by the experts because it is, indeed, a hindrance to semi-sighted or point shooting in low light/darkness.

5. The combat crouch is mocked by some of those expert trainers.

6. etc., etc., etc.

Anyway, here's a thousand dollar tip with a guarantee: Just place the dot….and you'll hit that spot.

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"1. The mindset from the expert trainers over there is to never present a weapon unless you intend to shoot the threat. How silly!
De-escalation of a threatening situation is often necessary and is always preferable to shooting."

Skyguy: You think it's silly? How about reading the text below. I direct your attention to bolded, which clearly defines that one who presents an "intended use as capable of creating a substantial risk to deadly force IS deadly force [ From the penal code of the state I reside in ].

The law involving use of force is very complicated and we have tried to simplify it without sacrificing accuracy.

1. QUESTION: What do you mean by "deadly force" and "non-deadly force"?

ANSWER: "Deadly force" as defined by Title 13, chapter 4 "means force which is used with the purpose of causing death or serious physical injury or in the manner of its use or intended use as capable of creating a substantial risk of causing death or serious physical injury. "Non-deadly force" as defined in Title 13, Chapter 4 "means force used upon or directed toward the body of another person and includes confinement, but does not include deadly physical force.

2. QUESTION: Is there a difference between when I may use deadly force and non-deadly force?

ANSWER: Yes. The law will not allow you to use more force than a "reasonable person" would believe is actually necessary under the circumstances. Generally speaking, a person may use deadly force only when a reasonable person would believe that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect him or herself or another from unlawful deadly force.

You pull the heat and use that laser to paint another in an attempt to "de-escalate" a perceived threat to your person, you run afoul of the laws and suffer liability.

Why? Because deadly force [ and by extension, threatening deadly force is using "deadly force" by state penal code ], you better meet the several requirements of the use thereof, and the biggest problem you have to overcome is the "a person may use deadly force only when a reasonable person would believe that deadly force is immediately necessary"

You see that word immediate there? You know what immediate means?

When you state that "De-escalation of a threatening situation is often necessary " you infer that you can yank that heater and threaten deadly force [ which is the use of deadly force ], when you are being threatened.

Thats not how the law reads, it reads that you are permitted to use deadly force [ and pulling heat and threatening deadly force with the use of that laser with the idea of de-escalating/defusing the threat is the use of deadly of ], when "a person may use deadly force only when a reasonable person would believe that deadly force is immediately necessary".

There's that word immediate again. I suggest if the threat is such that it requires "immediate" action to stay within the guidelines of the self defense rules of engagement and to meet the laws requirements which are very well defined, any use of a laser in an attempt to de-escalate would not be considered an immediate need to self defense, simply because if you feel you can attempt to de-escalate, it would not be considered and "immediate" threat to your person.

Yes, thats the midset I follow when I state "never present a weapon unless you intend to shoot the threat". Because if I am within lawfulness guidelines to use deadly force, the threat has to present and "immediate" threat to my life.

If it is an imminent threat of grave bodily injury or death to me, I can use deadly force. No, I will not be trying to de-escalate in any way, shape or form. To do so presents legal issues of why I used deadly force [ threatening deadly force by holding a gun on another, laser equipped or not is using deadly force ] toi begin with and brings into question if the threat was imminent and immediate to me for me to do so.

Silly? I think not. I think having worked for attys and the courts for almost three decades, understanding clearly the narrow range of circumstances which allow the use of deadly force makes me more informed about what will get my ass jammed up or what may keep it from being put in a sling by the letter of the law.

Better rethink your position on the de-escalation using that laser. You do whatever you think is best. I will not pull heat unless I am going to fire the weapon. It will be fired because my life is in "immediate" grave danger.

There is a time for talking and a time for shooting. Better know the difference.

"The combat crouch is mocked by some of those expert trainers."

I've not seen anyone state that here. Care to provide documentation of that accusation?

You may have been trained, but you clearly do NOT have a handle on some aspects of this discussion. Yes, we are in serious disagreement on issues in some of these areas. The law supports most of mine, and I'll let others take that for what it is worth.

I don't think you are qualified to be calling anyone at threatfocused silly. Nor do I appreciate it.

I mentioned you could have the last word a few pages ago, but I'll not remain quiet nor civil if you persist in this type of discussion and discord about my character or that of people at my site.

Now, back to your regularly schedule laser advertisements.

Robin Brown
 
Let's keep it civil, my friend or you'll get us both gagged. :)

So anyway, you're saying that you've never, ever pulled your weapon except the times that you've 'actually' used deadly force?

I can hardly remember all the times that I've had to intimidate dangerous people into complete submission. But it's been many times in both my military and my 10 years of lawful/commissioned street confrontations.

Question Brownie. Have you ever used deadly force....or have you just practiced and kept your weapon holstered for decades? I'm getting curious.

All the prolific book learning, the imaginary scenarios and the practice sessions are helpful, provide a lot of fun and help some folk to keep an interest in situations that, statistically, are far fetched at best.
But when the rubber hits the road, the average guy that is in fear 'will' pull his weapon and go for the intimidation. A laser just makes it more obvious.

The problem with the 'imminent threat' issue is that you're already half way to dead if you have to wait to fulfill all the minute legal requirements.
Best to get the drop on the threat and tell your own version of things after the fact. Of course, you won't find my advice in a book or at a seminar or at a training session. That might be illegal. It only comes from real life experiences.
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I've pulled a few times as LE and didn't have to fire, held hidden guns on people under countless stops, and I've pulled and fired immediately a time or two outside the LE role. A few more times without having to fire but the gun was stuck under their chins as they were hunting me in dark alleys [ which I had taken them down on purpose ] and didn't see me until the gun was pressed on them [ and the laser, had it been on the gun, would not have been the deterrent to their cooperation at that time :D

Get curious all you want, I'm not posting from my former LE or Military role here, you seem to be from your last post.

You mention your role as LE and Mil service, I'm talking average joe citizenships role and guidelines.

The role of LE and Mil's are not under the same guidelines of the general population as you well know. If one in the general population yanks the heat, they better be following the guidelines of the states statutes as was elucidated in my last post, those are the rules they'll be scrutinized under.

If I am within the law to lethal force self defense, the time for talking is over.

Your posts are read by a majority of people who are NOT LE and/or in the military, please keep that in mind when you post. Your perspective is from a different viewpoint, that of the LE and Mil role.

No need to be having everyday citizens thinking because you, as an LE or under the Mil role, have done something and espouse things in your world, that it is acceptable in theirs.

Robin Brown
 
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Good stuff

Skyguy writes:
Like it or not.....below is the combat crouch.

The same crouch I learned years ago in Army AB close quarters training. This is the same stance espoused by Applegate and many others that know what combat point shooting is all about.

It is the same crouch that is ridiculed by so-called experts that talk the talk, but have never had to walk the walk.

I post this picture so that those who seek good info will understand that when the shlt hits the fan you 'will' instinctively go into a crouch. You 'will' face the threat and push away from the danger trying to create distance.

So practice most of your point shooting from a crouch and squared up to the threat
.....and, if available, get the immediate tactical advantage of a laser equipped handgun.

There ya go...a thousand dollars worth of good tactical information, for free.
>>>>>>

HQ mentions:
The picture did not come up but the post is sufficient. Notice the gun and the position of the head in relation to it.

When you see an animal in the 100yd or 200yd or 300yd range you try and do a sit down or lean against a tree to get a good sight picture the crouch is similar in nature.
You just don't come to the shoulder and stand tall and shoot, or maybe some of you do.
Heck with the laser all you have to do is point and shoot no matter the position if the dot is on the person, at least it is pointed in the right direction.

Then you need to squeeze the trigger and do all the other things you have been taught. The red dot is not a guided point like in other forms of weapons that still miss for some reason.

HQ
 
No need to be having everyday citizens thinking because you, as an LE or under the Mil role, have done something and espouse things in your world, that it is acceptable in theirs.
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Laws differ from state to state. I say be informed.
But the instinct to defend oneself does not differ....and I'll always err on too quick a presentation as opposed to a delayed presentation.

I always stress that an unjustified presentation of your weapon could become a class 5 felony; menacing, assault, etc., so a bunch of common sense is needed. But along with that I also stress better safe than sorry....or dead. A weapon in the hand is quicker than a weapon in the holster.

But common sense is also needed when it comes to the actual use of a firearm. We all should know that only a fool would 'not' draw his weapon when there is a suspected credible threat issue....whether it's in a parking lot, at home, disabled vehicle, etc.

And as far as 21st century self defense tactics and weaponry goes; I always recommend the undeniable tactical advantages gained by the use of Lasergrips.

As I said before, "I point shoot out to about 15 feet, laser sight shoot out to about 50 feet and sight shoot out to distances that I would tend not to engage unless I had no other choice."

I've also learned that it's tough to convince old timers to accept or try new technology and new methods.
They should learn that Lasergrips are not only superior from awkward, compromised or cover positions, but its been proved that they are superior for dusk to dawn, indoors and cloudy days.
They certainly make old eyes work again. And the laser dot helps to de-escalate volatile situations.

Just place the dot....and you'll hit that spot.
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LEO's do have a tendency to take it for granted.

That they can pull on anyone and feel that it is their right to do so.

The law of averages will catch up to them though, if they are doing it with any amount of regularity. Most dept's are not concerned if it is on duty and you have a valid reason and write paper work.

But, off duty you are not going to get away with it. So time to think more like a person who just can't do it, unless it is a major case of self defense.

HQ
 
Just place the dot….and you'll hit that spot.

WRONG!

After 9 pages, I gotta respond. The CT laser dot does not match the point of impact. The CT laser is mounted to the right and below the barrel.

  • If the beam is adjusted parallel to the barrel, the beam is already over an inch off the point of impact. (low+right)
  • If the beam is adjusted to match the point of impact at a specific range, it will be off for all other ranges. (either low+right or high+left)
  • The straight laser beam does not account for bullet drop.

Granted, a bullet will impact in the area of a laser dot, but not at the spot.

I know it has been asked and answered if you work for CT, so I will not ask that.

Do you own CT Stock???:rolleyes:
 
WRONG!
After 9 pages, I gotta respond. The CT laser dot does not match the point of impact.
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Picky, picky, picky. :)

You commented on sights, so apparently you totally understand that 'no' sighting system is 100% dialed in at every distance. That is why we all set our sights to the distance that we expect our weapons will be used. Geeeeez

For self defense ranges past point shooting range (which is arms length to about 20 ft), the laser should be adjusted to poa/poi and sighted in at about 40 ft. At that range my lasergripped 1911 will generally group about 3" or less. About the size of your forehead.

True, the point of aim/point of impact might vary about a half an inch every 15 ft. But we ain't thinking bullseye, paper-punching markmanship....are we.

Just place the dot….and you'll hit that spot.

And I 'wish' I could buy Crimson Trace stock. lol

BTW, Mr_Magoo........Are you learning anything here?
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Yes, I am.

I am learning not to waste +200$ on a set of grips. :barf:

I am learning about another way to aim that is worth looking into.:D

Bottom line, being disabled I need to pinch every penny. I can either spend +200$ on every gun I own, or spend the same (or less) to learn a method that will work with every gun I own. It is a no brainer which way I will go.:)
 
I am learning not to waste +200$ on a set of grips.

I am learning about another way to aim that is worth looking into.

Bottom line, being disabled I need to pinch every penny. I can either spend +200$ on every gun I own, or spend the same (or less) to learn a method that will work with every gun I own. It is a no brainer which way I will go.
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Another way to aim?
If you're going to learn to sight shoot and/or point shoot you're on the right track. Go for it, but be informed that a laser sighted weapon solves many issues you may have...including eye-focus issues.

If your disability prevents mobility be assured that the laser can be painted on a threat from beds, wheelchairs or most cover and awkward or compromised positions. Lasers require 'no' particular stance or form. All other sighting systems have certain poses and form that require consistent practice.
Lasergrips don't. If you can see the threat, you've got it covered.

In low light, darkness and indoor light (past point shooting distance) lasers are the superior sighting system. You can easily aim from your waist or even from above your head if you need to...or from prone, side, back, crouched cover, etc.

Do yourself a service and at least 'try' a Lasergrip. You're the beneficiary. You'll be amazed what this 21st century technology has to offer.

....and you only need to equip one weapon; your self defense weapon.
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