Front Sight Press AND Quick Kill??

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I hope you never have to experience the about to be stepped on by the beast adrenaline dump, and if you find yourself in that situation, I sincerely hope your skills are up to the task at hand. Rely on what you want for that moment if it happens one day, but do consider the potential for the laser to become a crutch you rely on too much at the potential of your own perils.
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With my best intentions and all due respect to you Robin, I have to say.....WOW!

I didn't think that I'd have to present my credentials in order to support my perfectly legit information about the added advantage of Lasergrips in all sorts of self defense scenarios.

Somebody asked me once: "Have you ever had to dodge a bullet?"
That's when I first took account, thought and answered "Yep, probably 50,000 bullets have come my way...maybe more". He said, "Yeah, right". I just dropped the subject.

I am a proud Sky Soldier. A veteran of the Herd…the 173rd AB. We fought day and 'night' against the pro NVA and cong in war zones C and D, operation Junction City and Operation Macarthur.
I spent half of '66 and most of 11 months of '67 in the field. I've walked point day and night....been ambushed. I've seen enough.

I was wounded in Nov. '67 in my right arm, liver and lung on hill 875 near Dak To. Had trouble breathing and had a lot of really bad pain. Thought I'd die right there.
I left my m16, some of my hearing and my hero buddies on that hill.
I was dustoff-evac'd from there to a base hospital and eventually spent 3 months rehab in Germany. I am very fortunate and thankful for having only a 10% disability.

For nearly 10 years I was a commissioned covert controlled substance leo in Calumet City, Illinois. I did the streets.

I point shoot. I sight shoot. But, I have one more advantage over those that do likewise. I have lasergrips on my pistol.

You can call them a crutch....but I am 'positive' that they're a distinct tactical advantage.

Place the dot.....and day or night, you'll hit that spot.....guaranteed.

:)
 
Alright boys, before we choose seconds and count out twenty paces, let's name it a disagreement and call it a day.
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We have no problem with disagreements at TFL, even somewhat heated ones, so long as they remain civil, and not personal. Good debate results in the pro's and con's of a subject being highlighted. This one's remained civil..... so far ;) .
 
Remember that with a laser, a slight movement of the hand results in substantial movement of the dot on the target. The further away the target, the more the dot moves.
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Any slight movement of any firearm, whether sighted or point shooting, will result in a greater movement of the POI. The greater the distance, the greater the movement.

The tactical advantage of the laser is that you can easily see the differential at the POI and compensate accordingly.....from 'any' position.

The dot is the POI.
 
Capt Charlie said:
Remember that with a laser, a slight movement of the hand results in substantial movement of the dot on the target. The further away the target, the more the dot moves.
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Thanks, you described what happened very clearly and it makes sense. I think the issue might be that you were relatively unfamiliar with the visual input from a laser. The normal amount of wobble in the dot can be very disconcerting if you're not used to it.

This would be easier to demonstrate in person, because it can be hard to visualize and I'm not sure words are up to the task, but ...

There is no actual, on-target difference between the normal, barely-visible wobble of a front sight and the also normal but relatively large wobble from a laser dot. The visual input from each describes exactly the same potential shot spread on the target. In both cases, a smooth trigger press will cause the shot to be well within the same targeting circle.

Picture it as the difference between a supershort sight radius and a superlong one, and you might be able to see what I'm getting at.

Did that explanation make sense?

pax
 
Wooble did he say Wooble or Waffle on your shot.

I have found that when officers sometime don't take the shot, they really did not want to, or felt death was not the right thing at the time.

Many of us have been there at the last milisec the perp drops the weapon or you are caught in a dispute where the firearm is not the right decision.

SkyGuy
I feel the discription of your qualifications are very good indeed, but it still does not convince me that I should have to use a laser that my finger covers and I don't have a like for.

I like the discussion, but lets just say you have your thoughts and others have theirs. I do believe for the new guy who is looking for the edge and feels the laser is it, will be enough to keep the company afloat. Or the guy who is feeling his age and the eyes are not as good as they use to be.

But if it was up to me and my thoughts they would not make it. I would go for the illuminated sights front and rear (or just the front) and the laser in the snout if I had to have one, as in.... Department Policy.

HQ
 
The laser is just one more tool for the box

It should not be a "crutch" although I am certain that there are those shooters that buy them so they won't have to learn to aim

If not lasers they would likely turn to Point Shooting:D (sorry couldn't resist)

As stated before....my finger is not in the way because it is on the trigger when I am ready to shoot....and lining up the laser is no problem because it is right there....on target ....just out there past my front sight, because my weapon is already pointed at the target.(OMG...AM I POINT SHOOTING?:eek: )

So it is no better or worse than having no laser most of the time

But then....in those awkward moments ....when I am shooting around/under cover, low light, any number of non-standard situations.....

It may be invaluable

And the value as a training aid....priceless

As PAX pointed out....that wobble can be very educational

I hope everyone appreciates how I managed to mention the original thread subject at least twice in the course of discussing lasers
 
I hope everyone appreciates how I managed to mention the original thread subject at least twice in the course of discussing lasers
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And even I wandered off topic here :D . Laser sights are a good and interesting topic (guess I got caught up in that) that deserves a thread of its own. Anybody care to start one?
 
But if it was up to me and my thoughts they would not make it.
I would go for the illuminated sights front and rear (or just the front) and the laser in the snout if I had to have one
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Fair enough. Not everybody likes chocolate, either.

I'm just trying to spread the word in the firearms community and testify as to the immediate and numerous
tactical advantages of using a laser equipped firearm....day or night from any position.

Oh well, like they say; no good deed goes unpunished. :)

Here's my crutch:

Dsc02922.jpg
 
And even I wandered off topic here
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Not really.

The use of a laser equipped firearm is a tactic and they are well suited for training.
....especially in the varied disciplines of point shooting; front sight press and QK.

:)
 
Az Qkr has a valid point about not allowing the laser sight to become a crutch. It would be foolish to depend entirely on it (which, no matter how reliable, is still the most susceptible to failure, i.e dead battery) and neglect the other techniques. It seems the best of all would be to regularly practice PS without the laser, with the laser, and at longer ranges, sighted fire.

I envision more likely scenario for the advantageous use of a laser than the one Skyguy gave:

You're sitting in your car, someone rushes up to you with a weapon. You may not have time to drive off before he shoots or (if your window is down) stabs you. If you draw and extend the gun out to PS, he might grab or deflect it (window down) or (window up) the gun hits the glass and the shot goes wild. With the laser, you could keep the gun down out of reach and still make the shot.
 
The ultimate goal of PSing is to refine your eye/hand cordination, so that you can get hits from any position and any angle. In the scenario above the hit can be made without a laser.
 
Well, gentlemen and ladies,

I just got back [ its' 4 am here ] from a very long day.

Skyguy: You have my utmost respect for your service and experiences in life. I also share some of those same experiences, but in different areas of SE asia. :eek:

Mine were in the An Hoa valley near the airfield there. Just southeast of no mans land, near hill 55 and FSB Ross in the Quang Nam province of SNV.

I stand corrected, you do not need to speak in furtherance for me sir.

We disagree on this issue, we can and have kept this civil and I will not continue further in this vane as we will never agree, yet on my end at least, will honor your opinions on the issue. For no matter what would be said, I know you have a background worthy of at least listening to.

Stay safe

Brownie
 
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We disagree on this issue, we can and have kept this civil and I will not continue further in this vane as we will never agree, yet on my end at least, will honor your opinions on the issue. For no matter what would be said, I know you have a background worthy of at least listening to.
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Hey, back at ya.
I, too, respect your knowledge and experiences and your valued effort to train folks in the defensive use of a pistol.

For the record, I never intended to put down anyone or any shooting technique. I even tried to emphasize that I use and train at point shooting, laser indexed shooting and sighted shooting.

I believe all three are valuable responses in certain scenarios.
But, I also believe that sudden point shooting at close range is the most useful shooting technique for self defense.
....and that a laser equipped pistol is, indeed, a decisive tactical advantage.

That said, seems we have more in common than not.

:)
 
WARNING - WARNING - WARNING

Do not read this if....you're stuck in the past....you don't have an open mind....or you know it all.


FBI statistics show that close to 70% of police shootings occur at night or in reduced light environments.

Tips on surviving low light critical incidents

- Train, practice in low light conditions, learn to use darkness as an ally.
- Take advantage of new technology and equipment.
- Develop good skills: white light; movement; use of cover, etc.
- Have redundant lighting systems (small backup light, etc.)
- Develop your two handed and one handed coordination skills.
- Combine laser indexing with white light illumination..
- Learn about low light adversity: night eyes, blurry vision, afterglow, off center vision, etc.
- Understand: back lighting, ambient light, shadows, movement, team tactics, communication.

Low Light Operations...laser...officer survival:

- Laser aiming increases an officers field of vision and allows the officer to scan the area for accomplices, weapons and movement while verifiably remaining on target.
- A single aiming index, illuminated, is easier to sustain than alignment of eye, sights and target.
- Non-verbal communication tool between officers. Visible and clear.
- Subject control enhancement.
- Improves officer accuracy while moving.
- Enhances use of cover.
- Allows officer to shoot from unorthodox or injured positions.

Aiming Techniques

Sighted

This requires aligning sights with eye and target in a perfectly straight line. It is difficult especially when moving.
This "threading the needle" sighting method is awkward, difficult to consistently reproduce and necessitates use of fine motor skills.
Sighting produces satisfactory results while training in static environments with paper targets. However, its effectiveness is lost in high stress environments as is evidenced by the police incident hit ratio of approximately one out of every six shots fired hitting the intended target.
Other factors to consider include:

- A high degree of maintenance is required to sustain proficiency with this technique
- Darkness can obscure sight bumps
- Officer may be unable to bring the pistol to traditional sight plane
- Sighting can be adversely affected by eye and vision associated problems
- Method requires a focal plane contrary to the usual threat response, which is to focus on the subject.

Strong points: Sighting system is small, discrete, inexpensive and quite durable. This sighting method is considered usual and customary and is both comfortable and difficult to teach.

Non-Indexed Aiming Techniques

Point-Shooting

This method is strongly advocated by noted authorities such as Colonel Rex Applegate.

- Point-shooting is very quick and adequately accurate with practice. Mostly instinctual, some point shooting methods might be classified as semi-sighted because of gross visual references and geometric alignment of body coordinates.
- Point-shooting requires maintenance to sustain proficiency and may deteriorate with disruption of baseline standards such as footing, angles, height disparities, etc.
- Accuracy in point-shooting is affected significantly as distance increases.
- There is no de-escalation value.


Laser Sight Aiming

Advantages of the laser index include:

- Lack of complicated sight picture found in traditional alignment
- Does not require fine motor skills
- Does not rely on the gross approximation of point shooting.

Laser sights open the vision plane for scanning and assessment of a threat while maintaining subject control. They allow the officer to accurately shoot from angles and positions other than the traditional sight plane.
Laser indexing is very natural and can be used in conjunction with visual sighting and other shooting methods.
Laser indexing is the only sighting method that increases subject control, de-escalates a hostile situation, and enhances officer safety.

LASER TACTICAL ADVANTAGES

Limiting our sighting methods to "head and eyes must be behind the gun", assumes that an officer will never have to shoot from compromised positions or that incoming fire and available cover will not compromise an officers efficiency.

Lasergrips provide options. Traditional sighting is still available when time, distance, cover and lighting is favorable. Most situations do not allow these luxuries. The option of Lasergrips give officers a life saving tool in critical moments.

Tactics

Threat de-escalation.
Lasergrips provide a final less than lethal option in hot situations when an officer is faced with what appears to be his last alternative...firing rounds. Lasergrips are conclusively proving to de-escalate many hostile situations saving departments grief, time, and money.

Rapid first shot.
Because Lasergrips provide a single index sighting reference it is very quick. Traditional sighting is severely diminished by stress. The laser dot yields the longest sight picture available...it puts the front sight on the target.

Life saving auxiliary sighting method.
A downed or seriously compromised officer may not have the physical ability to point shoot or come to traditional sight picture. Lasergrips provide a life saving option.
Reduces exposure when behind cover or tactical bunker. Iron sights only, require that you lead with your head.

Quick and accurate sighting method when moving or in close quarter (non sighted) position.

Visual communication tool. Allows officers to designate who is covering who...or where the suspect is in a crowded environment.
Lasers can designate the location of a hostile threat and help an officer maintain awareness of muzzle direction and safety.
 
Well. I must say this whole thread has been refreshing,

Lazer sites, great for training NEW shooters in SIGHT USE, but lousy for "PS", found they tend to look at the dot more then feeling the weapon and the body's index.
Love'm for long guns, and helped the local state prison set up their mini-14 's.

Really on down side I find to them is for left handed operators.

"IT'S JUST ANOTHER TOOL"
 
"Point-Shooting

This method is strongly advocated by noted authorities such as Colonel Rex Applegate.

- Point-shooting is very quick and adequately accurate with practice. Mostly instinctual, some point shooting methods might be classified as semi-sighted because of gross visual references and geometric alignment of body coordinates.
- Point-shooting requires maintenance to sustain proficiency and may deteriorate with disruption of baseline standards such as footing, angles, height disparities, etc.
- Accuracy in point-shooting is affected significantly as distance increases."

Obviously written by someone who DOESN'T know anything about pointshooting who is only stating opinion as fact with an agenda in mind.

The only part of the above quote thats accurate is ""Accuracy in point-shooting is affected significantly as distance increases." which also is true for sighted shooting.
 
"some point shooting methods might be classified as semi-sighted because of gross visual references and geometric alignment of body coordinates."

What part of that is not accurate?

Or.....in simplest terms....it ain't wrong just cause you say so.;)
 
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