FMJ for self defense

I haven't been on the Firing Line long enough to become annoyed with this type of thread yet, but here's my two cents:

1) FMJ kills.
2) Hollow points kill.

I'd personally have loaded self-defense handguns with FMJ's because I had them on hand and FMJ's aren't toys. They will make holes in things. Holes in things kill things. Hollow points are probably more often deadly than FMJ's but that hardly matters. Practice and shot placement will get you the desired result.

As far as sub-9mm FMJ's for self-defense: I would always recommend FMJ's in sub-9mm handgun calibers for self-defense. Expansion with tiny bullets is a joke and rounds under 9mm don't seem to benefit from having a hollow point. Hollow points in lower energy handgun rounds seem to fill up and become more FMJ-like but they loose penetration. It seems that with even .380's hollow points prevent sufficient penetration to achieve FBI protocol. Smaller/lower energy rounds seem like they are worse still. Since you need to get to the organs to stop a determined attacker, penetration is going to be far more important in a lower power handgun round.

For 9mm up, hollow points can work better than FMJ, but FMJ is adequate for killing (see all wars).

NOTE: The author realizes that one could say "all handguns are underpowered," but hopes the readers realize he is referring ft/lbs of 250 or lower, like .380's down in terms of energy, as opposed to 250+ ft/lbs spectrum of handgun rounds.

Oh! Also, I say that some handguns DO run better with FMJ's than hollow points, and I don't think that is grounds to sell a gun, even one use for self-defense. Just figure out what works.
 
Darker Loaf said:
...1) FMJ kills.
2) Hollow points kill.

I'd personally have loaded self-defense handguns with FMJ's because I had them on hand and FMJ's aren't toys. They will make holes in things. Holes in things kill things. Hollow points are probably more often deadly than FMJ's...
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Except the point in self defense is not to kill. It is to stop the threat before he hurts or kills you.

Consider the FBI Miami Shootout. The criminal Platt was effectively "killed" by the first bullet that hit him. It was a mortal wound. But he still managed to live long enough to survive several more wounds, to kill at least two FBI agents, and to wound a few more.

JHPs will generally be better at stopping the threat, although there is no guarantee. See post 17.
 
I have definitely been on TFL long enough to become annoyed at these threads, but for some reason I enjoy answering them.

FMJ FOR SELF DEFENSE FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS:

Q: Is full-metal jacket ammunition a good choice for self defense?

A: No. This is a function of both the nonexpanding nature of the bullet and the round ogive.

Q: What if FMJ is all I have?

A. Then it's better than nothing. Get better ammunition when you can find/afford it.

Q: Yeah, but lots of people have been killed with FMJ ammunition. Look at the military!

A. Lots of people have been killed with .22 LR ammunition as well. So what? The military uses FMJ ammunition for a lot of reasons, chiefly because the US military abides by the irrational Hague Convention restrictions against expanding ammunition, but also for reasons of cost and the superior reliability of FMJ ammunition in 5.56 x 45mm and 7.62 x 51mm machine guns.

Q: Instructor X said .45 ACP in FMJ is a real manstopper.

A: While a bigger FMJ is probably more effective on average than a smaller FMJ, a .45 ACP JHP is better than a .45 ACP FMJ. Partisans of the .45 ACP like to snidely remark that a "9mm might expand, but a .45 ACP never shrinks."

Applied to bullet types, one notes that a JHP might expand, but an FMJ will NEVER expand.

Q: Bullets are bullets, why does it matter? AND Misses are more dangerous than overpenetration, so why worry about FMJ overpenetration?

A: There are virtually no situations in which a modern, quality JHP will perform WORSE than FMJ, and the odds are pretty good that it will perform better.

While it's true that misses are more dangerous than overpenetration, this is not a zero-sum game, where you only have to care about the most dangerous situation. You can, surprisingly, BOTH seek training and practice to increase your hit probability AND use ammunition that minimizes the risk of overpenetration. That latter, as a matter of fact, is an extremely easy switch that will cost you relatively little. There's no reason not to do it. Zero.

Q: Well, JHP isn't legal to carry in my country or state.

A: Then asking if FMJ is a good choice for carry doesn't matter, does it, since you don't get a choice.

Q: Shot placement is more important than bullet type, so Ima carry cheapo FMJ anyway.

A: Frequently the purpose of the thread asking if FMJ is a good choice for carry ammunition is not actually to discuss that question- which has been discussed ad nauseum already, but rather for the OP to seek out validation from others that his or her choice, which he or she has already made, is a good one.

It's one thing to say "I don't have any quality JHP ammunition yet, will it be the end of the world if I carry FMJ until I get some?"

The answer to that question is no, it won't. And the odds are you won't need your gun before you get better ammo, and if you do need it, the odds are your ammunition choice will probably not make the difference between whether you survive with your person and property intact or not. But for the minimal additional expense, why not just get a couple boxes of modern JHPs?

It's entirely another thing to say "I don't believe JHP is better than FMJ, and I don't want to pay the extra $15 per box of 50, even though I spent $600 on a gun."

If you say that, you're probably also carrying your $900 SIG in a nylon Uncle Mike's OWB holster (Size 4, fits all semiautos barrels 4-6") with belt loops made out of old backpack straps because you didn't want to pay more than $5 for a holster.
 
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Not only do JHP mushroom after entering a body but it's also spinning thus a buzzsaw effect which is more damaging to tissue.
 
No kidding. They practically empty their mags and only a few find the mark. That's coming from trained officers so when SHTF the training flew out of the window.
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You will find that's the case with most people when the bullets start flying.
 
Not only do JHP mushroom after entering a body but it's also spinning thus a buzzsaw effect which is more damaging to tissue.
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That's what they thought would happen with the R.I.P. 'defense ammo' (http://ripammo.com/) the theory was the serrated tip, and rotation of the bullet would 'cut through the ribs like a buzz saw. '

Doesn't quite do anything close to that.

I forgot who told me this, but I've heard that even a well stabilized bullet will not turn more than 1-2 rotations, when passing through a human body. That's not really much of a 'buzz saw' if you ask me. 1-2 rotations through the entire course of the bullet's path through a body is likely not going to do anything significant. When you think about it, with a pistol's twist rate, this is likely true. 1:16 twist means 1 rotation in 16'' of barrel. After the bullet exits the barrel it's going to be spinning, that fast, if not slower. So that's 1 rotation in 16'' of air and also water, or flesh, assuming that it DOESNT slow down after it exits the barrel. To me, that doesn't sound like a 'buzz saw' effect.
 
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With the above statement being made I would presume that a 5-6 shot revolver is totally out of the question for personal protection carry.
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I suppose its a matter of your skills, experience, and comfort level. I would think the first two would control the later.

I would suggest trying force on force with your gun loaded with the number of rounds your revolver carries and at first, one opponent, and see how well you make out. Add another opponent to the mix, and see if you can still solve the problem (assuming you can solve it with just one). That would probably help you make a more educated decision.


Personally, I'll take as many rounds as I can stuff in the gun, and a couple of reloads to go with it. I would much rather have ammo left in the gun when it was over than to come up one short, and at the worst possible moment. With "ALL" pistol rounds being pretty poor stoppers, the only solution is to be very liberal with what on board ammo you have, and literally, "shoot them to the ground". Assuming one or two will solve it, and stopping to assess, especially if the target is still in your sights after the second shot, seems like planning to loose to me.

I think with handgun rounds, its less about the "type" of bullets you have along, as it is about the "number", and even more importantly, the willingness to use them freely.

psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."
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This is who you hope is your opponent. Someone who has watched a lot of TV and movies and think that getting shot at all, anywhere, is the end of it, and falls down right there.

Reality is, there are people out there who wont be at all impressed with the fact you shot them, if they even know they have been shot, and will continue to aggressively press the issue. Have you prepared yourself to deal with this person? How about his similarly minded buddies?

Now, the real important question is, whats your mindset, and which one of the above are you?
 
Yeah, I remember a 1911 I got. Was told it will shoot anything so I went and got some very expensive HP's, 4th round jammed. Tried other ammo, some times I could go 500 rounds without a hiccup, then jam. Now I for one will not carry a gun that will jam due to ammo. So what to do? throw the gun away? send it to a gun smith and pay big bucks? or simply go to fmj and have no more issues?

Overpenetration? LOL ROTFLMAO and I suspect you belive every round will hit the bullseye? How silly to think that way, misses are worse IMHO than overpenetration cause in an OP it leaves a lot of energy in whatever it over penetrated, where a miss doesnt.

If someone wants to kill you, dont you want 100% out of the gun?

I dont gamble

and this is a repeat of last weeks threads....and next week, and the following week.......
 
Overpenetration? LOL ROTFLMAO and I suspect you belive every round will hit the bullseye? How silly to think that way, misses are worse IMHO than overpenetration cause in an OP it leaves a lot of energy in whatever it over penetrated, where a miss doesnt.
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I don't think anyone thinks a miss is less of a concern than overpenetration. That doesn't mean we can't be concerned with both. A fmj offers no advantage over a hp when it comes to either.

If someone wants to kill you, dont you want 100% out of the gun?

I dont gamble
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That's why I choose a firearm that can shoot hollow points.
 
All true thugs carry dem holler tee-uhps.

I'm quite ganster myself, so I carry them. :cool:

But REALLY! With today's modern HP designs, you can get expansion AND penetration, and at worst you still have performance equal to ball if the round fails to expand.

It's simple to me!
 
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JD0x0, I'm aware of the twist rate but as the bullet slowed going in the body I think the rate of spinning is still going. Think of it as RPM if you may. As the bullet leave the muzzle at hundreds/thousands feet per second the rate of the RPM is quite high.

I had someone shot at my house years ago and I still remember it because I heard the bullet spinning in the frame. It stopped but still spinning for almost a second.
 
Re Frank Ettin Re Miami Shoot Out

I'm pretty sure all the 9mm bullets the FBI were using during the Miami Shootout were JHP Winchester Silver tips, not FMJ's. Older 9mm hollow points lacked penetration and so it stopped early. FMJ in 9mm will zip right through 30+ inches of tissue, so it probably would have killed him if it were FMJ.

Watch some ballistic videos with with Silver Tip tests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HztD9GKtLUw&index=41&list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF

It does not do the job that modern JHP's do. Golden Sabers 147 grains or Hornaday Critical Dutys or Gold Dots would be fine.

NOTE: I'm not saying FMJ's are better at all just that in the case you mention, Frank, they were using HP's and they failed. So, your particular example supports my line of reasoning instead of yours.

Not that tnoutdoors9 is be all end all, but the the bullet stops at 11.25". Compare that with MAC's video of FMJ's: at 3:20 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpIVLUQ9rk8

It goes in 29" into ballistic gelatin.
 
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Darker Loaf said:
...I'm not saying FMJ's are better at all just that in the case you mention, Frank, they were using HP's and they failed. So, your particular example supports my line of reasoning instead of yours.
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Well apparently you don't remember what you wrote, nor did you read my post carefully. You missed the point entirely. And you reasoning remains specious.

You wrote:
...1) FMJ kills.
2) Hollow points kill...
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And the point I made, and one of the points that Madcap_Magician in post 43, is that self defense is not about killing. It's about stopping. I was using the FBI Miami Shootout to illustrate that. Platt was killed by the first bullet that hit him, but he wasn't stopped.
 
Re Frank Ettin Re Miami Shoot Out and FMJ

I am just saying that the bullet was a hollow point and it was itself the reason for the change of the FBI protocol. It was just a bad example that you brought up is all. I'm not trying to irritate you or make you look bad. Just pointing out the circumstances of the situation you brought up to prove your points.

I can respond directly to your argument as well. I admit I was not attacking the heart of it. But fine, I can.

Killing IS stopping. He didn't die right away; he was not dead until later.

I can change what I said:

1) FMJs Kill and stop threats.
2) Hollow points kill and stop threats.

And you didn't read what I wrote very carefully either, because I said HP's were generally speaking better at both killing and stopping.

The only reason I "picked on you," was because the very heart of your argument was to say jacketed hollow points are better than FMJ, which I basically agree with. However, the specific example you gave weakens your position because in the Miami shoot out the round that failed wasn't an FMJ round, it was a JHP, specifically a Winchester Silver tip. And likely in that specific example, an FMJ probably would have killed Platt because of penetration.

At the end of the day, we both agree on the main points that JHP's are better than FMJ for killing and stopping. I think it is strange that you have separated the two ideas. I would never shoot a living thing with a lethal weapon without intending to both kill and stop it, especially in self-defense. There is no reason to "shoot to stop" instead of kill. They are the same unless you are using non-lethal tools. But FMJs are lethal and JHP are lethal, so shooting to stop instead of kill would be nonsensical. If you were opting between non-lethal rounds and lethal ones, your argument would hold more water.

You bring up the previous post by Madcap:

"Q: Bullets are bullets, why does it matter? AND Misses are more dangerous than overpenetration, so why worry about FMJ overpenetration?

A: There are virtually no situations in which a modern, quality JHP will perform WORSE than FMJ, and the odds are pretty good that it will perform better."

And yet you brought up the one situation where penetration would have killed more effectively than expansion: a bullet stopping before someone's heart. That was 5% situation where you'd want an FMJ in the wound channel instead of a JHP. Heck, an FMJ would have gone through both his lungs and his heart.

But make no mistake. I agree with your original post (#17) almost in its entirety.
 
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Darker Loaf said:
...Killing IS stopping...
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It is not. The point is to stop someone before he kills or hurts you. Sometimes people are stopped quickly and they don't die. Sometime people are mortally wounded but do a lot of damage to others before they die.
 
They now have Expanding FMJ ...it may seem new ..The New Federal loads..but the bullets have been around for a while..I use them in my Rossi 44mag...

240gr .430 Hornady CL-SIL

images

Thats the bullet in the middle

2yuhjc2.jpg


SIL.JPG
 
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