Firearm Stopping Power…a different perspective.
- Thread starter IanS
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GoOfY-FoOt
New member
BOTTOM LINE
Any weapon used to thwart an attack, has to overcome one of two things.
Desire... or, Ability.
Someone MUST have an ongoing mental capacity to cause harm to another human being and they MUST have the physical ability to carry it out.
It does not matter what the statistics say, the odds are irrelevent. The only thing that will relate to any one given situation are the specific dynamics of that very situation.
Stop their desire to continue attacking you, OR, remove their physical ability.
Any weapon used to thwart an attack, has to overcome one of two things.
Desire... or, Ability.
Someone MUST have an ongoing mental capacity to cause harm to another human being and they MUST have the physical ability to carry it out.
It does not matter what the statistics say, the odds are irrelevent. The only thing that will relate to any one given situation are the specific dynamics of that very situation.
Stop their desire to continue attacking you, OR, remove their physical ability.
peacefulgary
New member
I'm not so sure about that....
I once X-rayed a boxer in the morgue who died from several blows to the head.
The X-rays revealed no fractures....no broken neck, no broken skull, not even a broken facial bone or jaw or nose.
The coroner called it death by concusion to the brain.
There was no penetration and no wound channel, just energy transferred from one boxer's flying fist to another boxer's head.
mrbro said it excellently.
I think no more points need to be added, but I'll just correct this one because it hurts my eyes:
The deformation, unless increasing potential energy (which it doesn't in this case) will result in heat energy too. All the energy of the bullet will become heat if there is no spring or other device to capture it's energy.
For the ones who can't see my equations, right click on the picture and select "view in new tab" or "view in new window". Seems like a technical problem.
I think no more points need to be added, but I'll just correct this one because it hurts my eyes:
The deformation, unless increasing potential energy (which it doesn't in this case) will result in heat energy too. All the energy of the bullet will become heat if there is no spring or other device to capture it's energy.
For the ones who can't see my equations, right click on the picture and select "view in new tab" or "view in new window". Seems like a technical problem.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
You know what a concussion is right? I don't see how that story supports the theory of "energy dump" or "knockdown power."
What happened was the fist caused the boxer's skull to accelerate, along with the brain inside it. When the skull stopped moving, the brain smashed into it, causing damage to the soft tissue of the brain, and probably torn blood vessels, hermorrhaging, etc., which ultimately killed the boxer.
X-rays are nifty; but there is a lot of internal damage that can not be spotted by an x-ray.
That's momentum again, The skull starts to move before the soft brain tissue and comes to a rapid stop while the soft tissue is still in motion. Not trying to be cute, but its like scrambling an egg in the shell. This same effect has killed some very famous race car drivers.
Correction: Come to think of it, I may be mistaken on the COD of the racers
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capflyboy05
New member
I appreciate what this gentleman tried to do.
But as it has been said many, many, MANY, times already...
Shootings and the environment are never consistent.
In order to develop proper data, there needs to be a "controlled factor."
Without that controlled factor.
There is no way to text the variables against it.
Just my two cents.
But as it has been said many, many, MANY, times already...
Shootings and the environment are never consistent.
In order to develop proper data, there needs to be a "controlled factor."
Without that controlled factor.
There is no way to text the variables against it.
Just my two cents.
9-ball
"The deformation, unless increasing potential energy (which it doesn't in this case) will result in heat energy too. All the energy of the bullet will become heat if there is no spring or other device to capture it's energy."
This is nonsense, most of the bullets KE is used to form the temporary stretch cavity. The size of the TSC for typical service caliber handguns does not exceed the elastic limit of the tissue, it simply rebounds to the original size. Some of the KE will be transformed into heat. Some of the KE will be used to deform the bullet. The KE used to deform the bullet is gone, it's not available to produce heat. There will be some heat as by product of the mechanical deformation.
You also have KE and momentum back-wards in regard to penetration. Momentum and diameter are the primary characteristics that mediate penetration. KE is related to TSC size. Here is the link to the best book on the subject.
http://pw2.netcom.com/~dmacp/index.html
As an example, look at the Federal HST line. For the same caliber the heavier bullets expand to a larger diameter and penetrate deeper. Despite the fact that they have the lowest energy. The lighter bullets at a higher KE do a better job exploding water jugs and water melons.
"The deformation, unless increasing potential energy (which it doesn't in this case) will result in heat energy too. All the energy of the bullet will become heat if there is no spring or other device to capture it's energy."
This is nonsense, most of the bullets KE is used to form the temporary stretch cavity. The size of the TSC for typical service caliber handguns does not exceed the elastic limit of the tissue, it simply rebounds to the original size. Some of the KE will be transformed into heat. Some of the KE will be used to deform the bullet. The KE used to deform the bullet is gone, it's not available to produce heat. There will be some heat as by product of the mechanical deformation.
You also have KE and momentum back-wards in regard to penetration. Momentum and diameter are the primary characteristics that mediate penetration. KE is related to TSC size. Here is the link to the best book on the subject.
http://pw2.netcom.com/~dmacp/index.html
As an example, look at the Federal HST line. For the same caliber the heavier bullets expand to a larger diameter and penetrate deeper. Despite the fact that they have the lowest energy. The lighter bullets at a higher KE do a better job exploding water jugs and water melons.
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Law of conservation of energy, anyone? Deformation will cause friction in the internal structure of the matter causing, again heat. The human tissue will have a temporary cavity, which will take some elastic energy at first, but after the cavity collapses it will again be turned into heat. All energy will be turned into heat.
hardworker
New member
It makes this early thursday morning a little more entertaining to watch people with no training in medicine or physics debate gunshot wounds and what makes one better than the other
9-ball
"Law of conservation of energy, anyone? Deformation will cause friction in the internal structure of the matter causing, again heat. The human tissue will have a temporary cavity, which will take some elastic energy at first, but after the cavity collapses it will again be turned into heat. All energy will be turned into heat."
You need to get past the simplified world of freshman physics. If all the energy is turned into heat, where does the energy that deforms the bullet come from. Yes, heat is a side product this. If all the energy is turned into heat, there is no energy to deform the bullet. Energy is also used to crush/cut the tissue.
All the bullets KE is not transformed into heat. Shoot a watermelon and observe the explosion. If all KE is transformed into heat, where does the energy blasting watermelon bits all over come from.
The KE used to deform the bullet is gone
You seem to have trouble with this concept. Mechanical work, the deformation of the bullet, is being done. Work requires energy.
Mehanical work, the crushing of tissue, is being done. Again this requires energy. Some of the KE is transformed into mechanical work. Some is transformed into heat. There is no violation of conservation of energy.
"Law of conservation of energy, anyone? Deformation will cause friction in the internal structure of the matter causing, again heat. The human tissue will have a temporary cavity, which will take some elastic energy at first, but after the cavity collapses it will again be turned into heat. All energy will be turned into heat."
You need to get past the simplified world of freshman physics. If all the energy is turned into heat, where does the energy that deforms the bullet come from. Yes, heat is a side product this. If all the energy is turned into heat, there is no energy to deform the bullet. Energy is also used to crush/cut the tissue.
All the bullets KE is not transformed into heat. Shoot a watermelon and observe the explosion. If all KE is transformed into heat, where does the energy blasting watermelon bits all over come from.
The KE used to deform the bullet is gone
You seem to have trouble with this concept. Mechanical work, the deformation of the bullet, is being done. Work requires energy.
Mehanical work, the crushing of tissue, is being done. Again this requires energy. Some of the KE is transformed into mechanical work. Some is transformed into heat. There is no violation of conservation of energy.
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We were talking about a bullet remaining in the body. Contrary to watermelons, human bodies do not splatter if the bullet doesn't exit. However, the pieces of watermelon will first gain kinetic energy and potential gravitational energy, but will then hit the ground and transform all that into thermal energy.
Work is the process of changing the energy, you can not turn energy into mechanical work. Mechanical work is a mean of transportation for the energy. The tissue will crush and produce heat in the process.
You seem to have a lot of problem with the basis of physics.
I have no training in medicine but I do in physics.
You are simply clueless. Take your ideas to a physics proff and see what he/she says. Especially this nonsense about all energy being converted into heat. Take an exact copy of post 115 to him to evaluate.
You started out claiming KE was responsible for penetration and that momentum had little roll to play. Since then you have stopped spouting that erroneous BS.
By the way, I have 3 years of physics. It was 30 years ago, so I am a bit rusty.
You started out claiming KE was responsible for penetration and that momentum had little roll to play. Since then you have stopped spouting that erroneous BS.
By the way, I have 3 years of physics. It was 30 years ago, so I am a bit rusty.
SwampYankee
New member
So I looked at the data presented. It is interesting. But even if you choose to draw any conclusions, you really don't have the basis to do so.
When we analyze data (he says as he puts on his scientist hat) we do what is called hypothesis testing. You start out with a hypothesis, usually the null hypothesis. In this case, the hypothesis would be to pick one factor- say percentage of fatal shootings, for sake of argument- and we assume there is no difference between caliber. So the null hypothesis would be that each caliber is equally effective. Then we run a bunch of statistical tests and do mean separation and try to prove there is no difference.
None of this was done. And as has been mentioned previously, there are so many potential factors that can contribute error to the data set that you'll probably never get statistical significance and if you do, you can't be sure if it is an artifact or not.
As a data set, it is interesting. As a means for drawing conclusions, it is pretty useless. Maybe you could grasp at some general trends but even that would be a stretch.
When we analyze data (he says as he puts on his scientist hat) we do what is called hypothesis testing. You start out with a hypothesis, usually the null hypothesis. In this case, the hypothesis would be to pick one factor- say percentage of fatal shootings, for sake of argument- and we assume there is no difference between caliber. So the null hypothesis would be that each caliber is equally effective. Then we run a bunch of statistical tests and do mean separation and try to prove there is no difference.
None of this was done. And as has been mentioned previously, there are so many potential factors that can contribute error to the data set that you'll probably never get statistical significance and if you do, you can't be sure if it is an artifact or not.
As a data set, it is interesting. As a means for drawing conclusions, it is pretty useless. Maybe you could grasp at some general trends but even that would be a stretch.
you seem to have a problem with the practical applications of physics.
let's talk about what I'm gonna call Mavracer's theory of relevance. that in order for something to enter a discussion it needs to be a relevant factor.
therefore since heat energy has nothing to do with the wound effectiveness of bullets it really has no place in the discussion.
bullets wound by the disruption of tissue the fact that the tissue is heated up a degree or so is totally irrelevant.
