hardworker
New member
That's an extreme argument. Reduce it down to 9mm vs 40 vs 45 and I would have no preference
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Firearm Stopping Power…a different perspective.
- Thread starter IanS
- Start date
Biff Tannen
New member
thank you
I enjoyed reading IANS's post. I especially thought it was interesting that the stats included % of head and torso hits, taken into consideration how many times we've all read on this forum "shot placement is everything"... Also, one can easily deduce the inverse stat, that the remaining % of the 100 points is a limb hit (which is a given that I've noticed that the naysayers have failed to recognize and appreciate)...
Anyway, it's always great to read an alternate ballistic point-of-view, thank you much for the post.
Stay safe!
I enjoyed reading IANS's post. I especially thought it was interesting that the stats included % of head and torso hits, taken into consideration how many times we've all read on this forum "shot placement is everything"... Also, one can easily deduce the inverse stat, that the remaining % of the 100 points is a limb hit (which is a given that I've noticed that the naysayers have failed to recognize and appreciate)...
Anyway, it's always great to read an alternate ballistic point-of-view, thank you much for the post.
Stay safe!
Biff Tannen
New member
Your point regarding limb hits is well taken.MLeake said "not all limb hits are created equal."
I would have liked to see a full study there, but, heck, I guess these studies have to draw the line somewhere, probably due to lack of funding...
You know, it would be nice if there were a federal grant or investor who could do a proper all-encompassing study on this, and include every stat imaginable... It would either end most of these on-line debates or start twice as many haha!
Take care and stay safe!
iMagUdspEllr
New member
Well the number of people shot doesn't matter because how effective a round is must be determined on a target by target basis.
The number of hits doesn't matter because we don't know how many shots were fired in the first place AND we are evaluating the round not the shooter. Accuracy is the responsibility of the shooter not the round. If they can't hit with it then they need to find a round and more importantly a gun that they can hit with... but, again, that is neither here nor there.
Percent of hits that were fatal don't matter because we don't know the exact path said "hits" took through the target. We don't know which parts of the body these "hits" struck, we don't know which organs were penetrated, and we don't know how much damage was dealt to the organs that were hit.
Average number of rounds until incapacitation doesn't matter because we don't know if that means number of rounds fired or number of hits and we don't know where those hits struck in the first place.
One shot stop percent doesn't matter because it depends upon how drugged up/unafraid the target is and doesn't tell us why it took only one shot to stop them. They could have gotten shot once through their arm and given up or they could have been shot in the medulla oblongata, severing the body's connection to the brain instantly.
Accuracy doesn't matter because it is the shooter's responsibility to hit not the round. And, they only count torso/head hits? They don't count the shoulder, arm, hand, foot, pelvis (which can render a person incapable of walking), etc.
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) doesn't matter because it doesn't matter how many were stopped with one shot but WHY they were stopped with one shot.
Guy1, "My machete stopped him with one swipe!" Guy2, "Why? Did you chop his head off?" Guy1, "No, I slashed his carotid artery and he bled out."
Here is an idea for an actual study if someone wants to actually do one.
Caliber: (rather self-explanatory)
Firearm: (including brand, model, barrel length, action type)
Bullet specifications: (including manufacturer, bullet weight, etc. etc.)
Number of hits: This is where you put a legitimate description of exactly how many hits were scored on the bad guy and a detailed description of each one of those round's paths through the bad guys body (taking care to note which organs in the body were affected and to what extent they were affected). It is also important to give a detailed description of the target's body composition.
Time until incapacitation: As accurately as possible note the time from the first hit until the bad guy was incapacitated. "Incapacitated" for the sake of this study will mean, "incapable of posing a threat." If they give up or are unwilling to continue fighting that does not count and will invalidate that incident. Why? For example, if that person was on drugs or possessed a stronger will/determination/motivation the incident would not have ended at that point in time.
I wager that no one will ever collect this data. I doubt someone will be able to convince medical staff around the globe to so intimitely record the path and damage inflicted by every single bullet that penetrated a body. And, they might not even be able to tell the caliber of the bullet(s) if the bullet(s) is(are) even recovered at all.
I also doubt you will be able to discover the exact moment the target took the first hit let alone WHICH hit is the first hit.
So I think everyone should just stick to what we know, which is very little, but enough in my opinion. If you pierce the heart we can safely assume appropriate blood flow throughout the body will have been disrupted and the resulting bleed out/lack of oxygen to the vital organs will incapacitate the target in the prescribed amount of time (easy to consult a medical professional on how long all of that takes). We can also safely assume that if we detroy the parts of the brain that permit motor function and/or render the brain incapable of communicating with the rest of the body the target will be considered instantly incapacitated. So if your favorite round can make it through a person's heart and through a person's skull and still destroy vital parts of the brain (located closest to the back of the head near the base of the skull around the medulla oblongata and the medulla oblongata itself) then you have a perfectly lethal round. If that hole is .1" bigger it doesn't matter because destroyed is destroyed and stopped is stopped.
The number of hits doesn't matter because we don't know how many shots were fired in the first place AND we are evaluating the round not the shooter. Accuracy is the responsibility of the shooter not the round. If they can't hit with it then they need to find a round and more importantly a gun that they can hit with... but, again, that is neither here nor there.
Percent of hits that were fatal don't matter because we don't know the exact path said "hits" took through the target. We don't know which parts of the body these "hits" struck, we don't know which organs were penetrated, and we don't know how much damage was dealt to the organs that were hit.
Average number of rounds until incapacitation doesn't matter because we don't know if that means number of rounds fired or number of hits and we don't know where those hits struck in the first place.
One shot stop percent doesn't matter because it depends upon how drugged up/unafraid the target is and doesn't tell us why it took only one shot to stop them. They could have gotten shot once through their arm and given up or they could have been shot in the medulla oblongata, severing the body's connection to the brain instantly.
Accuracy doesn't matter because it is the shooter's responsibility to hit not the round. And, they only count torso/head hits? They don't count the shoulder, arm, hand, foot, pelvis (which can render a person incapable of walking), etc.
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) doesn't matter because it doesn't matter how many were stopped with one shot but WHY they were stopped with one shot.
Guy1, "My machete stopped him with one swipe!" Guy2, "Why? Did you chop his head off?" Guy1, "No, I slashed his carotid artery and he bled out."
Here is an idea for an actual study if someone wants to actually do one.
Caliber: (rather self-explanatory)
Firearm: (including brand, model, barrel length, action type)
Bullet specifications: (including manufacturer, bullet weight, etc. etc.)
Number of hits: This is where you put a legitimate description of exactly how many hits were scored on the bad guy and a detailed description of each one of those round's paths through the bad guys body (taking care to note which organs in the body were affected and to what extent they were affected). It is also important to give a detailed description of the target's body composition.
Time until incapacitation: As accurately as possible note the time from the first hit until the bad guy was incapacitated. "Incapacitated" for the sake of this study will mean, "incapable of posing a threat." If they give up or are unwilling to continue fighting that does not count and will invalidate that incident. Why? For example, if that person was on drugs or possessed a stronger will/determination/motivation the incident would not have ended at that point in time.
I wager that no one will ever collect this data. I doubt someone will be able to convince medical staff around the globe to so intimitely record the path and damage inflicted by every single bullet that penetrated a body. And, they might not even be able to tell the caliber of the bullet(s) if the bullet(s) is(are) even recovered at all.
I also doubt you will be able to discover the exact moment the target took the first hit let alone WHICH hit is the first hit.
So I think everyone should just stick to what we know, which is very little, but enough in my opinion. If you pierce the heart we can safely assume appropriate blood flow throughout the body will have been disrupted and the resulting bleed out/lack of oxygen to the vital organs will incapacitate the target in the prescribed amount of time (easy to consult a medical professional on how long all of that takes). We can also safely assume that if we detroy the parts of the brain that permit motor function and/or render the brain incapable of communicating with the rest of the body the target will be considered instantly incapacitated. So if your favorite round can make it through a person's heart and through a person's skull and still destroy vital parts of the brain (located closest to the back of the head near the base of the skull around the medulla oblongata and the medulla oblongata itself) then you have a perfectly lethal round. If that hole is .1" bigger it doesn't matter because destroyed is destroyed and stopped is stopped.
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On the other hand, a Jacksonville police officer took a .45 ACP point blank to the chin, not only did he live, he returned fire and killed his assailant.
it's pointless for people to keep rehashing this latest gun battle on internet forums. it obviously was not a full front shot, or it would have penetrated through the back of his head and killed him instantly.
quite obviously it was at an angle, and the bullet went on it's way after wounding the officer's chin.
it's in no way indicative of the effectiveness of the .45acp.
this is simply an example of bad shot placement, nothing more.
You know, it would be nice if there were a federal grant or investor who could do a proper all-encompassing study on this, and include every stat imaginable...
There have been several such studies and the results will astonish you! They offer a Different Perspective! They are always the same.
The results are...For defensive purposes have a handgun that you shoot well chambered in the most powerful round that you can shoot fast and accurately. Match that combination to the task in front of you (meaning a concealable gun if carrying concealed, etc.). Select a well made bullet suited to the task. Place your shots well. Practice.
tipoc
You know, it would be nice if there were a federal grant or investor who could do a proper all-encompassing study on this, and include every stat imaginable... It would either end most of these on-line debates or start twice as many haha!
it's been done. the problem is the human vairiable. size, shape and mentality of the BG play a much bigger roll than the bullets size, velocity or construction does.
Without a CNS hit you can not predict with any reliability how anyone is going to react to a COM shot. Especially concidering the fact you don't know weather it's a 6' 120# guy or a 5'7" 400#.
CastleBravo
New member
This isn't an original idea, just a bad one. Like every previous iteration of this sort of "study" there are too many unaccounted-for variables and too few samples to draw any kind of meaningful conclusion. Statistically speaking it's rubbish. Just because you can put a number to something doesn't mean that the number is telling you something real or useful.
It's kind of telling that people who actually have a professional interest in what their bullets do to people study terminal ballistics rather than one shot stop "statistics."
It's kind of telling that people who actually have a professional interest in what their bullets do to people study terminal ballistics rather than one shot stop "statistics."