Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
You don't know that. You're assuming they have zero care of anything but the almighty dollar. Possibly, but highly unlikely. They simply lapsed in judgment.
Fatal Shooting with Uzi
- Thread starter skizzums
- Start date
You don't know that. You're assuming they have zero care of anything but the almighty dollar. Possibly, but highly unlikely. They simply lapsed in judgment.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
This is so true that, even though the M14 battle rifle had a full auto mode, the Army quickly found that the majority of soldiers couldn't handle it. By the time I enlisted, we trained with the M14 stateside and I can't recall even being told that there was "a switch." I didn't see my first full-auto until I got to Vietnam and was introduced to the M16.Tom Servo said:
As to the one round, then two rounds, then ... protocol -- heck, that's what we advocate for people who tinker with the fire control group in a 1911. Same reason -- bad tinkering can result in a full-auto 1911, which is not a good thing. It's especially not a good thing if it goes full-auto with a full magazine, which is why we advocate sneaking up on it: first just one round, and observe for hammer follow. Then two rounds. Then three rounds. Once you can fire three rounds with no problems ten times in succession, you can probably figure it's safe to load a full magazine.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
No, sorry, what you wrote was that people were arguing "against teaching anyone, anything, gun related." No one has done so in this thread. It's absurd for you to claim that arguing that it's problematic to give automatic weapons to small children is the same as arguing that no one should ever be taught anything gun-related.AK103K said:
Tom Servo nailed it:
And a really poor argument, to boot.
I've heard that firsthand as well.
One of my customers has an no-kidding registered STG-44 (oh, did I grovel and make unwholesome offers...). He let a few of us shoot it. Two very experienced shooters nearly climbed it into the ceiling, and that's actually easier to control than an Uzi.
2123 said:
Interesting theory. At what point do you draw your line? Why is it a gimmick for a child to be in possession of a full-auto firearm but not a semi-auto firearm or a single shot firearm?
It's actually not that unusual, usually happens at least a couple of times a year, for a poorly supervised child to kill someone with a gun. Only thing unusual in this case was that it was full-auto.
Do you think it would be best to ban children from being in possession of ANY type of firearm? Or maybe some particular type from the choices below:
1) Children have business being in possession of single shot firearms?
2) Children have business being in possession of multiple shot firearms that require some manual manipulation before the next shot (bolt action, pump, etc)?
3) Children have business being in possession of multiple shot firearms that don't require manual manipulation before the next shot but have long/hard trigger pulls (revolvers)?
4) Children have business being in possession of semi-automatic firearms?
Why would it not depend on the supervision, training, and maturity of the child?
I personally know properly supervised and trained children who are MUCH safer with fully automatic firearms then other children (or adults) with single shot firearms.
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Bennyfatsack
New member
Barbie dolls, kittens, dress ups, teddy bears, tea parties, hop scotch, hide on go seek, slippery dips, cartoons, uzi's,mums jewellery, pajama parties........ Been looking for a while cant find the odd one out for a 9 yr old girl
I am against 9 year olds shooting full-auto center-fire guns. There is simply too much stupid risk. I'm not saying that the occasional kid is completely incapable of handling such a gun, but they will be far and few between.
I have owned and shot an AC556 for over 10 years. I have fired an M16 and a Bren Mark I. That's the extent of my full-auto experience, but it's enough for me to know that I don't have what it takes to safely supervise a 9 year old girl, or even an 11 year old girl, shooting it. It's enough for me to try and supervise one 45 year old man with limited firearms experience in trying out my AC556 - and that makes me nervous!
Let me put it this way. When my daughter was 10 she had fired a .22 bolt action rifle a couple of times (too big for her) so I bought her a Cricket so that I can get her started shooting. She's 11 1/2 and she still has a difficult time handling the Cricket - it takes a lot of very close, hands-on supervision! And, she can handle shooting a small compound bow just fine. She's not even close to being ready to shoot anything center fire, or semiautomatic.
So, I'm a full-auto owner and shooter, member of the NRA, 2nd Amendment rights advocate and parent of an 11 year old......I'm against it.
Double Naught Spy
New member
I don't have a problem with the youngsters firing full auto. There are kids who are firearms proficient and for whom graduating up to full auto really isn't that bad. The same for adults.
In the driving world, a person's first or early driver-in-charge driving experience should not be a top-fuel dragster. You work your way to it.
These sorts of events reminds me of the idiots who intentionally give a gun to an inexperienced shooter (Youtube vids have this most often with females) and then watch and laugh as the shooter is overpowered by the recoil, sometimes with accompanying injury. During the event, control of the weapon is often lost. Fortunately, these events are most often with single shot firearms or firearms requiring additional action by the shooter to chamber a new round, so the danger diminishes greatly with the first shot which is usually the only shot.
I am sure there was no intent to do harm with either of the child/full auto incidents, but from what I have read, neither of the kids were already skilled shooters and the cavalier attitudes about letting them be in control of full auto firearms and the lack of safety measures in place to preclude mishap is troubling.
In the driving world, a person's first or early driver-in-charge driving experience should not be a top-fuel dragster. You work your way to it.
These sorts of events reminds me of the idiots who intentionally give a gun to an inexperienced shooter (Youtube vids have this most often with females) and then watch and laugh as the shooter is overpowered by the recoil, sometimes with accompanying injury. During the event, control of the weapon is often lost. Fortunately, these events are most often with single shot firearms or firearms requiring additional action by the shooter to chamber a new round, so the danger diminishes greatly with the first shot which is usually the only shot.
I am sure there was no intent to do harm with either of the child/full auto incidents, but from what I have read, neither of the kids were already skilled shooters and the cavalier attitudes about letting them be in control of full auto firearms and the lack of safety measures in place to preclude mishap is troubling.
This is more ammo for the antis, that's my concern. How many were shot and or killed in my Chicago last weekend. That makes little news any more because it throws an unflattering light on the Democrats in charge. This is an unfortunate occurrence, not an accident, because the "instructor" did not do his job. Jobs 1,2,3 SAFTEY, SAFETY, SAFTEY. You let your guard down with guns, people can die.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Here's a good editorial on the subject that summarizes reasonable points:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/08/27/fully-automatic-firearms-safety-tragedy-arizona/
Parent do put their kids in risky positions for PR, etc. We've seen it with flight feats and sailing around the world. Folks do put powerful guns in the wrong hands because of stupidity or for laughs.
Would you teach kids to fence without the protective gear? How about saber training?
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/08/27/fully-automatic-firearms-safety-tragedy-arizona/
Parent do put their kids in risky positions for PR, etc. We've seen it with flight feats and sailing around the world. Folks do put powerful guns in the wrong hands because of stupidity or for laughs.
Would you teach kids to fence without the protective gear? How about saber training?
Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
For a time yes. But, time heals all wounds thank Goodness.
As far I'm concerned. Lucky for those at the range that day no police charges were being pressed {according to today's newspaper.} Frankly: Those who want their child to shoot at a very very young age need to realize their actions under the Law may garner "Child Endangerment" implications in the eye's of another. One would think what he chooses too do or teach their child is no others business. Well. Not always is the case.
Gary L. Griffiths said:
Then you should know well that there are plenty of recreational and sport shooters who get more ammo downrange in a summer's weekend than any non-deployed troop outside SOCOM does in a year. "I was in the Army!", by itself and without any other qualifiers, just doesn't cut a lot of mustard when it comes to commanding respect for one's gun-handling skills.
A secretary who CCWs spends more time handling loaded firearms than a peacetime soldier in garrison.
If you've never been to Knob Creek, Bulletfest, or Big Sandy, don't go, because you'll be questioning lots of people's sanity.
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A child gains nothing by shooting a full-auto firearm. I don't care how proficient they might be with a firearm. A child simply does not need to experience shooting a full-auto firearm, and doing so, does not make them a better person for it.
With age and responsibility, comes privilege. No 9 yr. old has earned the right to shoot such a weapon. Chances are, the young girl's experience could have been counted on a handful of fingers. It was a stupid decision on the part of her irresponsible parents.
I learned to drive a tractor at age 10 or so. Pulled trailers full of bales of hay for 8-10 hrs. at a time. Having done that didn't qualify me to sit in the seat of a funny car at the drag strip.
Everything in life is relative to some degree or another. It's all about responsibility, making good decisions, and doing the right thing as much as possible. Ignoring one or trying to substitute it for something else doesn't always work out in the end.
If the young girl in question had fired the UZI w/o incident, she would have forgotten all about it within a week or two. But, that's not the way it turned out. She'll remember shooting the guy in the head and having him fall dead to the ground at her feet, for the rest of her life.
Thanks mom and dad, you're the best!!
With age and responsibility, comes privilege. No 9 yr. old has earned the right to shoot such a weapon. Chances are, the young girl's experience could have been counted on a handful of fingers. It was a stupid decision on the part of her irresponsible parents.
I learned to drive a tractor at age 10 or so. Pulled trailers full of bales of hay for 8-10 hrs. at a time. Having done that didn't qualify me to sit in the seat of a funny car at the drag strip.
Everything in life is relative to some degree or another. It's all about responsibility, making good decisions, and doing the right thing as much as possible. Ignoring one or trying to substitute it for something else doesn't always work out in the end.
If the young girl in question had fired the UZI w/o incident, she would have forgotten all about it within a week or two. But, that's not the way it turned out. She'll remember shooting the guy in the head and having him fall dead to the ground at her feet, for the rest of her life.
Thanks mom and dad, you're the best!!
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Gary L. Griffiths
New member
This isn't about round count. I've shot fully automatic weapons enough to know they're orders of magnitude more difficult to control than their semi-auto versions. As far as gun-handling, as a CID Special Agent I was armed 24/7 for most of my 20+ years of service, and have been armed almost that much since, thanks to my Texas CHL and the LEOSA. So yes, with more than 40 years of law enforcement and law enforcement instructional experience, mostly involving firearms, I consider myself qualified to judge firearms safety. And allowing a small inexperienced child to fire a fully automatic weapon with a full magazine is not just unsafe, it's the very definition of insanity, IMHO.
I'm no full-auto expert, but I've put a mag through a G3, and a mag dump through an Uzi, and the latter is much easier to control. A 3-round burst from the G3 is: Round one on target, round two at the top of the berm, round three over the berm.
Holding an Uzi on a man-sized target is relatively easy, but not the first time the weapon is put in your hands!
Gary L. Griffiths said:
A soldier AND a police officer? I'll refrain from the obvious "Heck, you're practically the only one in this thread qualified enough..." jokes.
I'm just Suzy CakeEater Civilian, not a Sheepdog Operator, but I've given plenty of people check rides on SMGs as part of my job, and I can tell you that it didn't include letting them pop off one round on semi and then flipping the switch to Group Therapy and letting them hold back the trigger on a full stick, whether they were 9 or 90. (See 4V50Gary's post back on page one of the thread for the proper way to do it.)
Gary L. Griffiths
New member
Not suggesting it be outlawed. But the tally so far is one dead kid and one dead instructor.
I categorize this right up there with open-carrying rifles and shotguns. It's legal, and should remain legal; but it conveys a negative image to the vast majority of people.