Fatal Shooting with Uzi

Vanya said:
If your basic business model is to attract customers by offering a chance to do as much shooting as possible in a given amount of time, the amount of actual instruction you provide will necessarily be minimal.

I have no problem with the idea that a nine-year-old can shoot an Uzi safely, but I doubt that the level of competence she needs to do so can be acquired in an "amusement park shooting package" context.
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Our rule was that you had to have shot at the range three times before you'd be given an SMG orientation (and you got a fresh orientation for each different one you rented; a Colt orientation didn't get you out of an MP5 check ride.) It occasionally caused lost business*, but I thought it provided at least a baseline that the person had been able to safely conduct themselves on the range without drawing any safety violations.


*The guy in the linked story was aggrieved that we A) Wouldn't let him rent an MP5 on his first visit, and B) Expected him to go through a safety orientation to use the range, despite his loudly proclaiming that he was an "ex-Special Forces operator!" to all and sundry.
 
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Here's yet another take on this tragic loss for all parties.
I am an instructor, or was for years. M-16, H&K 31, Thompson, Riesing, MP5, AUG, Ruger, and a host of others.
I watched the video of the very small 9 yr. old girl.
The weapon under full auto fire got away from her, rising up & to the left hiting the instructor.
This was completely preventable.
Coated wire cable teathered to prevent the weapon from rising more than a few degrees or swinging up & left more than a few degrees.
Another safety would have been a booth, narrow enough to prevent the muzzle going out of control. Too bad the instructor wasn't ready or didn't anticipate the possiblities. Perhaps he could have grabbed the weapon but perhaps it happened to quickly. I don't know.
But, those safety measures didn't happen, and a man is dead a child tramatized for life.
Clearly safety measures should have been in place to prevent this small girl from loosing control of the weapon on full auto fire.
I'm not one bit against teaching a child weapons safety & skills.
My own son was shooting a .22 auto handgun at 7 but believe me it had only one, then two rounds in it and & was ready to grab his arm should he swing the piece where he should not. And I stood close to him but BEHIND him where I could react with no one getting shot.
He was after all, only 7.
The little thin girl in the video had no idea the full auto weapon would control her! Perhaps if the instructor has stood close but behind her???????
But it happend and can't be made to unhappen.
 
"Those focusing on the child's age are seeing a tree and not the forest"
Absolute truth. Really, this isn't even a parenting issue, but one of gross negligence. No different from the woman who bump-fired a 500S&W revolver into her head after being given one unprepared for the recoil. A kid younger than 9 can swing an axe or hatchet safely (I did, in Scouts), but not until a lot of practice and demonstration of safety practices and technique is done. Why? Because you can't control a person with an axe; if you are close enough to guide them, you are in the kill zone.

The Uzi isn't quite that bad, in that a person can assist a shooter from behind without placing themselves in danger, but as we saw, it is still difficult for an instructor to control the situation effectively. Even holding her grip on the weapon properly and preventing the muzzle from rising would be at best an incredibly awkward maneuver, and the instructor would still have no ability to end shots being fired until the shooter relaxed their finger or the mag ran out. As was said, the parents ignorantly assumed the scenario was carefully controlled and safe (hard to blame them, I imagine the trained authorities told them exactly that), but in fact it was not. It was only as controlled as the instructor's discipline, which as we all know will lapse, the instructor being human.

The best course of action would have been to better control the situation by either affixing the gun (to control muzzle direction) or restricting the ammunition available until the shooter demonstrated the ability to master these limited scenarios. Yes, it was possible that this would be the kid's only exposure to full auto guns in her entire New Jersian existence, but that doesn't make it an intelligent option, same as flying an airplane or driving a race car (or four-wheeler!!!).

Hopefully this (these) incident(s) give the 'tourist gun range' community a bit of pause; that their entire operation is solely based upon their adhering to safety principles, which only the operators have the knowledge and wherewithal to practice, even though many of their shooters cannot be so controlled all the time. Cost of doing business, I suppose, but it's a might steep one. I suspect this place may well be closing its doors before long, since the criminal negligence/homicide lawsuit practically writes itself (the former a suit by the kid's family, the latter by the instructor's family).

I really hope we don't find out that the instructor felt pressured to help the kid shoot, in order to make a sale...

TCB
 
Teathering the weapon so it can't swing out of control.
About the girls age? I'm looking at the little girls size.
She was a tiny thing, probably scared when the weapon rose left with recoil and no way to understand just let of go of the trigger.
She's 9, inexperienced, & small.
I visit Florida in the winter and use a nice inddor range while there.
This is the kind of range with metal booths so that an inexperienced person can not turn the muzzle left of right & if they do & let a round loose the metal booth stops the bullets.
I've seen bullet holes all over that range and you'd wonder " how could THAT happen??? "
 
Carnival rides sometimes have signs -
"You must be this tall to ride".

In response to the above - post
In Army basic training the bunkers you practiced throwing live grenades - looked like, well, grenades had gone off in them!!
Grenades plural!
 
Grenades plural!:eek:
Speaking of carnivals. Remember the air gun looking like a Thompson that shot lead .177 bee bees? Those thing would cut a soft pine board in half so were teathered so no one could turn the "air gun" towards another person.
 
i dont think the opinion of thinking that its irresponsible for a range to let children shoot FA translates into asking for some kind of government legislation
 
A few years ago, I met with a friend and he suggested that we shoot at a private indoor range that he was a member of.

We went later at night, due to the fact that he had a pass key that allowed him access 24/7.

We were the only ones there and there were no lane walls of any kind. There were about 15 lanes and they were all open.

We pulled up a table to our location and began unloading our range bags. As I was looking around, there were countless bullet holes in the ceiling, the cinder block walls and some on the concrete floor near the end of the lanes.

I asked him how long he had been a member, and what kind of people are members of this range, pointing at some of the bullet holes here and there. He just kind of laughed and said you get used to the holes once they are no longer new to you.

I decided many, many years ago, that I would never shoot at a public or private range while others were present, excluding the LE ranges I shot / trained at of course.

A public range is one bell I never intend to ring. ;)
 
2123 said:
I decided many, many years ago, that I would never shoot at a public or private range while others were present, excluding the LE ranges I shot / trained at of course.
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Just make sure you keep that cell phone charged. It'd suck bleeding out because there was nobody around to call for help.
 
I'm 56 yrs. old. Bought my first handgun 4 months ago. I have only shot a Glock 19 and a Sig 1911 .22. My 2 week old Glock 26 will make it's first trip to the range tomorrow. I will eventually get a CCW permit but not until I have developed sufficient skills and knowledge so that I don't become a risk to myself and/or others. I have never shot and Uzi, but if out of the blue someone offered me the chance to do so I would refuse without having the chance of learning the basics of that gun. Way too many videos on You Tube show the unintended consequences of gun handling by the untrained/unskilled.

As an adult, those are decisions that I can take. No 9 yr. old child, let alone a 5 or 6 yr. old, can pass this type of judgement. The girl in this case will possibly suffer lifelong consequences for a decision that someone else made. Whether or not you agree with allowing children to handle a particular type of weapon, always keep in mind that it is your decision but their consequences.
 
Much higher chance of being shot by someone else on a public range, than by myself or my shooting buds, wherever I or we happen to be shooting.

Make no mistake, I've been to public ranges. What I saw (actions by others) would have sent them packing if they had been LE on a LE range.
 
This loss is sad.

I support young folks learning to shoot.

I have a well behaved 8 yr old Granddaughter .I don't think she has been shooting yet.No rush.She is learning many things.Just got her yellow belt.

When her parents are ready,I have a pair of Chipmunk 22 single shots,and a youth size Anschutz.

No limit to how much fun we can have busting Ritz crackers or wormy apples.

It just does not occur to me to have them shoot an smg.

I admit,I lean toward being critical toward every adult involved.

But,for just a little balance,this link will take you to a youtube vid of 13 yr old Katelyn Francis.She shoots full auto,threegun,etc.She is safe and proficient.I would not want anything to prevent Katelyn or other young folks from growing as young shooters.
I suggest care in swinging the broad brush"No kid has any business...."
Katelyn ,IMO,proves otherwise.

http://youtu.be/wZE-EDGw2vo
 
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Hi HiBC!

Not the point I was trying to make. I myself would've liked to take on the sport at an earlier age but here in PR guns are taboo.

What I meant was that at that age kids can not make an educated decision. We all know that. It is the parents decision and parents should be very, very cautious. In this case the parents would have benefited from taking a step back and asking questions. Quite probably that would have prevented a tragedy.
 
The anti-gun movement is all over this today. Expect laws to be proposed. A ban on furnishing functional firearms to minors under the age of 18 is the quickest, easiest way to kill the gun culture as we know it.
 
2123 said:
Much higher chance of being shot by someone else on a public range, than by myself or my shooting buds, wherever I or we happen to be shooting.

Make no mistake, I've been to public ranges. What I saw (actions by others) would have sent them packing if they had been LE on a LE range.
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No doubt! Fed LEOs are the only ones professional enough, as we all know.

Make no mistake, your credentials fail to impress me, bro; cops have shot a lot more innocent bystanders lately than 8-year-olds with Uzis have. Nothin' like a bit of hubris to put a bit of sting in when you finally fall victim to the Safety Sin.

I'm out of this one. :rolleyes:
 
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Lots of holier-than-thou-I-know-better-than-you hubris in this thread.

I once, with responsible instruction, let a 15 year old and his dad shoot my subgun. Who gets to decide who is too young? The government? We need more gun regulation! For sure!

I guarantee, with the look on that kids' face, I won over a couple of people to the pro gun side.
 
Once more into the breach!

The parents get to decide when their child is old enough to shoot a FA weapon as it should be and in this case their judgment was poor. One dead another life damaged and at least two others living with the results of a very poor decision. No one involved will ever be the same. Seems those are very high stakes for a little entertainment. I'm praying for all involved!
 
The age of the girl is irrelevant. Her small physical stature is somewhat relevant.

Handing her a full mag after she has only fired one familiarization shot is relevant...and tragic.

I have nothing but sympathy for the girl. I have sympathy for the man that was killed, but I have more sympathy for the girl. His choices ended up costing him his life. I would be nothing short of amazed if that girl ever touches a firearm again.
 
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A tragedy for sure and one which I'm sure we can all agree on.

Problem is, it wasn't just a simple accident, and blame / responsibility needs to be assigned to someone.

That's where some of us part company.
 
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Tragic and preventable

Very sad, for all involved. I agree with some that age is not the deciding factor alone, in determining when to introduce a youngster to the shooting sports. Personally I have always started off new shooters with instruction in firearms safety, range etiquette and then hands-on training with unloaded firearms to practice proficiency in safety skills, loading, unloading, clearing stoppages, etc. Then, and only then, would we proceed with actual live fire. In all cases I start people off with .22 caliber handgun or rifle on a bench rest. Some younger (ages 10, 11) family members were taught this way and still enjoy shooting.

I cringe every time I read a story such as this, and see videos showing poor handling of firearms. Youtube is full of videos of "Watch as [insert female name here] shoots 12 gauge/Ak-47/Bazooka for the first time!". I hate these videos. I hate the morons who let people shoot like that, and post videos of themselves.

We are giving ammunition (pun intended!) to everyone who opposes firearms, the shooting sports and the 2nd Amendment everytime things like this happen. The end result is more legislation that never solves the issue, and only serves to limit our ability to enjoy our sport and hobby. Again, I feel for everyone involved in this incident and wish it never happened. Prayers to all the family and friends involved.
 
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